Phil Wood FSA Serviceability?

I have read many times (on the Phil website, this newsgroup, and other
bicycling newsgroups) that Phil Wood FSA hubs are completely
serviceable with two 5mm Allen wrenches.

Today I decided to take apart my Phil hub. While I had no problem
getting it apart (using a hammer and a vise in addition to the Allen
wrenches), I don't understand how one would do this with only two 5mm
wrenches.

Using the two 5mm wrenches, I was able to loosen and remove one of the
end caps. I could see no way to remove the other end cap with only my
two 5mm Allen wrenches.

I then tried to remove the bearing on the side of the wheel where the
end cap was still on. That bearing was very tight-- I would say close
to a press fit. I had to use a hammer and block to get it out.

Once out, I saw no mechanism (such as a hole drilled orthogonally to
the length of the axle) that would make my second Allen wrench useful
to get the other end cap off. I used a vise to hold the axle and
removed the cap.

I then had to use a hammer (with the axle + end cap as a punch) to
remove the other bearing, which also fit very tight. Unlike in the
shell, however, the bearings fit easily on the axle, so they slipped
right off.

So I have two questions:

1. Am I missing some way to get *both* end caps off with only two
Allen wrenches?

2. Would it be a huge mistake to ream (gently, with very small grit
sandpaper) the shell so the the bearings can be removed/installed by
hand?

--Jim

On Sun, 30 Nov 2008 17:26:49 -0800, Jim Rogers wrote:
snip

2. Would it be a huge mistake to ream (gently, with very small grit
sandpaper) the shell so the the bearings can be removed/installed by
hand?

here's a better question: do you think phil are clueless about the long
term effects of having bearing races looser in the shell?

On Nov 30, 8:11*pm, jim beam wrote:
On Sun, 30 Nov 2008 17:26:49 -0800, Jim Rogers wrote:

snip

2. Would it be a huge mistake to ream (gently, with very small grit
sandpaper) the shell so the the bearings can be removed/installed by
hand?

here's a better question: do you think phil are clueless about the long
term effects of having bearing races looser in the shell?

I don't know. I'm not an engineer, so I asked the question in the hope
of being enlightened.

All I *do* know is that, on their website, Phil Wood claims that their
hubs can be serviced with only two 5mm hex key wrenches:

http://www.philwood.com/Touring%20Hubs.htm

As tight as those bearings were, I can assure you that two hex keys
were insufficient to remove the bearing from the shell.

--Jim

On Sun, 30 Nov 2008 18:21:33 -0800, Jim Rogers wrote:

On Nov 30, 8:11Â*pm, jim beam wrote:
On Sun, 30 Nov 2008 17:26:49 -0800, Jim Rogers wrote:

snip

2. Would it be a huge mistake to ream (gently, with very small grit
sandpaper) the shell so the the bearings can be removed/installed by
hand?

here's a better question: do you think phil are clueless about the long
term effects of having bearing races looser in the shell?

I don't know. I'm not an engineer, so I asked the question in the hope
of being enlightened.

All I *do* know is that, on their website, Phil Wood claims that their
hubs can be serviced with only two 5mm hex key wrenches:

http://www.philwood.com/Touring%20Hubs.htm

As tight as those bearings were, I can assure you that two hex keys were
insufficient to remove the bearing from the shell.

--Jim


well, first, i don't read phil's web site blurb as saying the bearings are
serviceable with 5mm hex wrenches, i see that as the /axle/ being
serviceable, i.e. you can remove the freehub body for cleaning and
lubrication.

second, you /want/ the bearings to be a close fit to ensure they align
squarely for maximum durability, and so as not to erode the shell.
standard bearing service procedure is to pull or drift old bearings, so i
don't see why these should be any different just because they're on a bike.

but that begs the question as to why you wanted the bearings out in the
first place - what was wrong with them? and at what age/mileage?

well, first, i don't read phil's web site blurb as saying the bearings are
serviceable with 5mm hex wrenches, i see that as the /axle/ being
serviceable, i.e. you can remove the freehub body for cleaning and
lubrication. *

Sorry, I did not give a very good link. I'm talking about a freewheel
hub. Here's a better link where Phil Wood says their FSA hubs
completely disassemble with two 5mm Allen wrenches:

http://www.philwood.com/fsa.htm

second, you /want/ the bearings to be a close fit to ensure they align
squarely for maximum durability, and so as not to erode the shell. *
standard bearing service procedure is to pull or drift old bearings, so i
don't see why these should be any different just because they're on a bike.

I (think) I understand the reason for a *close* fit (as they were on
the axles), but in the shell they seemed to be a press fit.

but that begs the question as to why you wanted the bearings out in the
first place - what was wrong with them? *and at what age/mileage?

Nothing was wrong. I'd just always heard that an advantage of Phil
hubs was "mindlessly" easy to replace the bearings with only two hex
wrenches. Since I happened to have some time today, I thought I'd try
it out. I did not find it to be possible with the recommended tow
wrenches, so I decided to ask here if I was missing something.

--Jim

On Sun, 30 Nov 2008 19:03:51 -0800, Jim Rogers wrote:

well, first, i don't read phil's web site blurb as saying the bearings
are serviceable with 5mm hex wrenches, i see that as the /axle/ being
serviceable, i.e. you can remove the freehub body for cleaning and
lubrication.

Sorry, I did not give a very good link. I'm talking about a freewheel
hub. Here's a better link where Phil Wood says their FSA hubs completely
disassemble with two 5mm Allen wrenches:

http://www.philwood.com/fsa.htm

i still don't see what's so hard about tapping out the axle. and all the
stuff you've been reading is regarding the "field serviceable cassette".




second, you /want/ the bearings to be a close fit to ensure they align
squarely for maximum durability, and so as not to erode the shell.
standard bearing service procedure is to pull or drift old bearings, so
i don't see why these should be any different just because they're on a
bike.

I (think) I understand the reason for a *close* fit (as they were on the
axles), but in the shell they seemed to be a press fit.

they get their alignment from both the axle /and/ the shell.




but that begs the question as to why you wanted the bearings out in the
first place - what was wrong with them? Â*and at what age/mileage?

Nothing was wrong. I'd just always heard that an advantage of Phil hubs
was "mindlessly" easy to replace the bearings with only two hex
wrenches. Since I happened to have some time today, I thought I'd try it
out. I did not find it to be possible with the recommended tow wrenches,
so I decided to ask here if I was missing something.

note for the future - do NOT undertake recreational bearing removal - you
can easily brinell the bearings. you should only do so with a view to
replacement when brinell damage doesn't matter.

i still don't see what's so hard about tapping out the axle. *and all the
stuff you've been reading is regarding the "field serviceable cassette".

It wasn't just "tapping." Tapping would be OK. I had to pound *fairly*
hard. The FSA is a "Field Serviceable Axle." It is not a cassette.

second, you /want/ the bearings to be a close fit to ensure they align
squarely for maximum durability, and so as not to erode the shell.
standard bearing service procedure is to pull or drift old bearings, so
i don't see why these should be any different just because they're on a
bike.

That's fine, but I'm wondering why are these hubs marketed as being
disassemblable with two 5mm hex wrenches?

I (think) I understand the reason for a *close* fit (as they were on the
axles), but in the shell they seemed to be a press fit.

they get their alignment from both the axle /and/ the shell.

On the axle they're tight, but pushable with your fingers. In the
shell i had to use a hammer. Makes me question the term "field
serviceable."

note for the future - do NOT undertake recreational bearing removal - you
can easily brinell the bearings. *you should only do so with a view to
replacement when brinell damage doesn't matter.

What about inserting the new ones?

I should say that, while I did need a hammer, I did not have to pound
the hell out of them (more than a "tap", but less than a "pounding").
I'm pretty sure I didn't damage the bearings as you described, but I'm
also pretty sure I couldn't have changed these bearings "in the
field."

--Jim

Jim Rogers wrote:

Today I decided to take apart my Phil hub.
[...]
So I have two questions:

1. Am I missing some way to get *both* end caps off with only two
Allen wrenches?

Probably not. All my direct experience with Phil hubs is with pre-FSA
models, so I can't say for sure. Is there another 5mm hex socket
deeper in the axle that you can get to after removing the end cap on
that side?

2. Would it be a huge mistake to ream (gently, with very small grit
sandpaper) the shell so the the bearings can be removed/installed by
hand?

Yes, that would be a mistake. Don't do it. You'd certainly wear the
bore to something other than a cylindrical form, which would give the
bearing cartridges edge contact rather than surface contact in their
bores.

The larger question remains: If you do extract the axle of a Phil hub
out on the road somewhere, what are you going to do with it anyway?
It's not like you are likely to have replacement bearings and
appropriate installation tools available. The places where you can
buy those things are the same sorts of places that can do competent
bearing replacements for you.

In any case, the Phil hub is a system with high reliability and
durability (as long as you don't go "field servicing" it just because
you can). FSA is more a marketing feature than a practical one.

Chalo

Chalo wrote:

Probably not. *All my direct experience with Phil hubs is with pre-FSA
models, so I can't say for sure. *Is there another 5mm hex socket
deeper in the axle that you can get to after removing the end cap on
that side?

I thought of that, but there is none.

2. Would it be a huge mistake to ream (gently, with very small grit
sandpaper) the shell so the the bearings can be removed/installed by
hand?

Yes, that would be a mistake. *Don't do it. *You'd certainly wear the
bore to something other than a cylindrical form, which would give the
bearing cartridges edge contact rather than surface contact in their
bores.

You question my ability to create a perfect cylinder by hand? OK, I
won't do it. I didn't really want to change the bore, I thought maybe
a bit of smoothing/polishing away of (micro, invisible) roughness from
the milling process might allow the bearings to move easily.

I even wondered if simply removing and installing the bearing a few
times might have the same effect. The bearings slid a bit roughly on
the axle (like there were some invisible burrs), but after sliding
them on and off a few times (by hand) it was like they cleaned up--
they then slid very easily.

The larger question remains: *If you do extract the axle of a Phil hub
out on the road somewhere, what are you going to do with it anyway?
It's not like you are likely to have replacement bearings and
appropriate installation tools available. *The places where you can
buy those things are the same sorts of places that can do competent
bearing replacements for you.

There are two reasons I was thinking about this:

Reason #1. I'm planning on doing some long-term touring. I tend to
over-plan, and I like to think I have a solution thought out even for
unlikely events.

I've read many times that the sealed bearings used in Phil hubs are
not sealed from water, and some people report ruined bearings in their
Phil hubs after relatively few rides in the rain. I don't think it
would be a terribly unusual event on a long tour to hit a spell where
one might ride for several days (or even a week) in the rain.

I figured this would not be a problem because 1) the bearings are
cheap and available at hardware stores, and 2) people have described
the bearing replacement process as being this fast and easy:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...9634da1210cfaf

So the idea is, if I did have any bearing problems, stop at a hardware
store, buy the bearings cheap, 10 minutes of work with my two Allen
wrenches in the parking lot, and my hubs are like new.

Reason #2. I had been reading about old Maxicar hubs, and it was said
that the labyrinth seals used in those hubs would not be penetrated by
water, and you could ride them for 50,000 miles in any weather
conditions without trouble. Apparently, however, because of those
seals, those hubs were very difficult/expensive to manufacture.

I wondered if Phil might not have had a better idea of using cheap
bearings that were easy to replace rather than fancy seals to protect
the bearings. I decided to see just how easy the bearing replacement
process was and, while not finding it hard to do with the right tools,
I found it impossible to do with the advertised two Allen wrenches.

As I said, I've seen many posts that said it could be done with two
wrenches, and never a post saying someone couldn't do it. Made me
think I must be missing something.

In any case, the Phil hub is a system with high reliability and
durability (as long as you don't go "field servicing" it just because
you can). *FSA is more a marketing feature than a practical one.

Oh well. Thanks for the info.

--Jim

On Nov 30, 6:26*pm, Jim Rogers wrote:
I have read many times (on the Phil website, this newsgroup, and other
bicycling newsgroups) that Phil Wood FSA hubs are completely
serviceable with two 5mm Allen wrenches.

Today I decided to take apart my Phil hub. While I had no problem
getting it apart (using a hammer and a vise in addition to the Allen
wrenches), I don't understand how one would do this with only two 5mm
wrenches.

Using the two 5mm wrenches, I was able to loosen and remove one of the
end caps. I could see no way to remove the other end cap with only my
two 5mm Allen wrenches.

I then tried to remove the bearing on the side of the wheel where the
end cap was still on. That bearing was very tight-- I would say close
to a press fit. I had to use a hammer and block to get it out.

Once out, I saw no mechanism (such as a hole drilled orthogonally to
the length of the axle) that would make my second Allen wrench useful
to get the other end cap off. I used a vise to hold the axle and
removed the cap.

I then had to use a hammer (with the axle + end cap as a punch) to
remove the other bearing, which also fit very tight. Unlike in the
shell, however, the bearings fit easily on the axle, so they slipped
right off.

So I have two questions:

1. Am I missing some way to get *both* end caps off with only two
Allen wrenches?

No. One axle end comes off easily, the oher needs to have the axle
end sucured, like you did.


2. Would it be a huge mistake to ream (gently, with very small grit
sandpaper) the shell so the the bearings can be removed/installed by
hand?

Yes. I use a bearing press to et the new bearings back in. They need
to be very tight in there. Add a wee bit of oil, use a bearing press.

--Jim