riding on the sidewalk

On 07/06/16 16:53, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 07.06.2016 um 00:56 schrieb James:
On 07/06/16 07:53, Frank Krygowski wrote:

I'm not saying there's no place where a cycletrack is appropriate. But
they are being tremendously oversold, and touted as the near-universal
solution. In that way, these things are no different from the helmet
mania at its peak.

Yet NL is the safest place in the world to ride a bike, IIRC.

I think you are wrong here. My memory places Germany and Switzerland at
a lower accident risk per million km cycling.


http://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmcc.../#577af9522af3

--
JS

On 08/06/16 00:05, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, June 6, 2016 at 10:43:15 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
On 07/06/16 12:49, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, June 6, 2016 at 6:04:13 PM UTC-7, James wrote:


It is likewise pretty simple minded to think a culture change will
magically happen if we keep on doing things as we've always done,
but you keep up the productive work of telling people to take the
lane. That seems to be working well in the US of A.

For the most part, ordinary roads are working well in the US of A.

Yes, I dare say bicycle mode share there is similar to Australia. Maybe
a couple of percent average across the country.


Bike mode share in some parts of Portland is above 25%.


"average across the country"?

--
JS

On 08/06/16 00:48, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/7/2016 1:57 AM, James wrote:
On 07/06/16 14:38, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Apparently you, like many "paint and path" advocates, misunderstand the
motivation behind the style of riding advocated by me and by those
behind programs like Effective Cycling, the League of American
Bicycling's courses, the CAN-BIKE courses, the British cycling education
courses, etc.

The motivation is not to transform the culture, magically or otherwise.
The motivation is to enable those who choose to learn the techniques to
ride safely and enjoyably in the real world as we know it.


Sadly though, those techniques do not make riding on the road with motor
traffic safe enough (perceived or actual) to encourage many ordinary
people to ditch their car.

There are many, many, many reasons people in our two countries choose
cars over bikes. Providing segregated bikeways will not change the bulk
of those reasons.

It's been mentioned here countless times, but: Several "new towns" in
England were designed and built from scratch, including town-wide
networks of completely segregated bike/ped facilities. The hope was
that these networks would lead to Amsterdam-like bike mode shares. But
they did not. People prefer cars, for many reasons - climate
protection, load capacity, distance to travel, speed, etc. But the
biggest one is that cars don't require physical effort.

It might be hard for some dedicated cyclists to accept, but most people
really don't like exerting themselves. We're different that way, and
we'd be smart to realize that we are.

This might be a useful analogy for you: I have friends who are
absolutely baffled that I have no interest in playing golf. It doesn't
matter how many golf courses they build. It doesn't matter if they
build one adjacent to my back yard. I'm not going to get into golf. And
by the same token, they are not going to ride their bikes to the golf
course.


I do not dispute that restricting car use is equally important.

--
JS

On Tuesday, June 7, 2016 at 3:54:08 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
On 08/06/16 00:05, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, June 6, 2016 at 10:43:15 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
On 07/06/16 12:49, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, June 6, 2016 at 6:04:13 PM UTC-7, James wrote:


It is likewise pretty simple minded to think a culture change will
magically happen if we keep on doing things as we've always done,
but you keep up the productive work of telling people to take the
lane. That seems to be working well in the US of A.

For the most part, ordinary roads are working well in the US of A.

Yes, I dare say bicycle mode share there is similar to Australia. Maybe
a couple of percent average across the country.


Bike mode share in some parts of Portland is above 25%.


"average across the country"?

No, but the point is that ordinary roads with some minor modifications can attract huge numbers of riders -- assuming that other conditions are met, e..g., it's flat and the population is able-bodied and interested in riding bikes. We achieved the 25% number in an area of town with no cycletracks or special, physically separate facilities.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Tue, 7 Jun 2016 12:09:39 +0200, "W. Wesley Groleau"
wrote:

On 06-07-2016 01:49, Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher wrote:
There's another way to go around it which is to form "small teams" of cyclists (real practical cyclists going rather slow, not the ones in lycra) that secure and hold a traffic lane "come what may."

Sounds to me like a sure way to get the majority (motorists) to vote
increased restrictions on bicycles. And of course the oil companies and
transport companies will be on their side.

I wonder. After all, nearly all of the cyclists will have at least one
car... for when it is raining, or snowing, or when they got to haul a
load of groceries, or when they just feel lazy :-)

I even see people here talking about how they load the bike in the car
and drive to the place to ride. What with all that driving to and fro
to get to the "riding place" and then get home again they probably use
enough fuel to keep the oil companies happy :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

On 6/7/2016 7:05 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, June 6, 2016 at 10:43:15 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
On 07/06/16 12:49, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, June 6, 2016 at 6:04:13 PM UTC-7, James wrote:


It is likewise pretty simple minded to think a culture change will
magically happen if we keep on doing things as we've always done,
but you keep up the productive work of telling people to take the
lane. That seems to be working well in the US of A.

For the most part, ordinary roads are working well in the US of A.

Yes, I dare say bicycle mode share there is similar to Australia. Maybe
a couple of percent average across the country.


Bike mode share in some parts of Portland is above 25%. http://bikeportland.org/2014/05/08/g...s-tract-105732
http://www.cityclock.org/top-10-cycl.../#.V1bN2pErI2w Number one in the US -- the Hosford-Abernethy neighborhood, a stone's throw from my office.

The city-wide rate is still only 7.2% http://bikeportland.org/2015/09/17/p...te-to-7-159171

The high mode-share neighborhoods are basically flat and close to downtown. The facilities are entirely on-road bike lanes and traffic calmed streets -- the so-called bicycle boulevards (except for the separated facility on the Hawthorne Bridge that puts you in with the pedestrians). The population is young and urban.

In contrast, the low mode-share neighborhoods are distant or hilly or populated mostly by the chronically un-hip. In fact, one of the only segregated bike facilities -- the HWY 205 bike trail -- gets very little use because it is in a rather beleaguered part of town. I got punched by some meth-head riding down that trail. http://www.carfreerambles.org/wp-con...205-path-3.jpg Note trash.

We have other separated facilities but they are mostly MUPs -- so you go toe-to-toe with pedestrian. We also have a few cycle-tracks, but as implemented in Portland, you still have to go toe-to-toe with pedestrians -- and cars, trains, streetcars, aerial trams, buses and other bikes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HpCGyr61Do I'm waiting for them to throw in some mountain lions.

Should we write up a grant proposal for that?

Mark J

On Tue, 07 Jun 2016 09:19:34 -0400, "(PeteCresswell)"
wrote:

Per :
single out model types ?

BMW... Does anybody else recall the series of BMW TV advertisements a
bunch of years back that featured somebody driving a BMW along mountain
roads - like a total asshole?

I was waiting for somebody like Saturday Night Live to do a takeoff on
those ads in which the driver comes around a blind curve at speed and
decimates a troop of nuns or runs into a flock of sheep.

Ah but if you roar around a corner and kill a flock of sheep then
regardless of what happened you will likely have to buy them, If it is
a cyclist you just say, "Oh, I didn't see him", and you don't have to
pay.

And from experience I can assure you that a chicken, or a sheep,
laying dead in the road, that you have just killed by running over is
usually more valuable that a chicken, or a sheep, walking around
undamaged :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

On 6/7/2016 7:28 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, June 7, 2016 at 3:54:08 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
On 08/06/16 00:05, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, June 6, 2016 at 10:43:15 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
On 07/06/16 12:49, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, June 6, 2016 at 6:04:13 PM UTC-7, James wrote:


It is likewise pretty simple minded to think a culture change will
magically happen if we keep on doing things as we've always done,
but you keep up the productive work of telling people to take the
lane. That seems to be working well in the US of A.

For the most part, ordinary roads are working well in the US of A.

Yes, I dare say bicycle mode share there is similar to Australia. Maybe
a couple of percent average across the country.


Bike mode share in some parts of Portland is above 25%.


"average across the country"?

No, but the point is that ordinary roads with some minor modifications can attract huge numbers of riders -- assuming that other conditions are met, e.g., it's flat and the population is able-bodied and interested in riding bikes. We achieved the 25% number in an area of town with no cycletracks or special, physically separate facilities.

And as I've mentioned, San Francisco scored big jumps in bike mode share
during the years when a lawsuit prevented installation of bike facilities.

There's a LOT more to it than cycletracks, cycletracks, cycletracks.


--
- Frank Krygowski

But first a report from Kalamazoo...

On Tue, 7 Jun 2016 13:33:58 -0700 (PDT), "Wise TibetanMonkey, Most
Humble Philosopher" wrote:

On Tuesday, June 7, 2016 at 12:53:16 PM UTC-4, Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher wrote:
On Tuesday, June 7, 2016 at 12:28:58 PM UTC-4, Wise TibetanMonkey, Most Humble Philosopher wrote:
On Tuesday, June 7, 2016 at 10:48:21 AM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
There are many, many, many reasons people in our two countries choose
cars over bikes. Providing segregated bikeways will not change the bulk
of those reasons.

It's been mentioned here countless times, but: Several "new towns" in
England were designed and built from scratch, including town-wide
networks of completely segregated bike/ped facilities. The hope was
that these networks would lead to Amsterdam-like bike mode shares. But
they did not. People prefer cars, for many reasons - climate
protection, load capacity, distance to travel, speed, etc. But the
biggest one is that cars don't require physical effort.

It might be hard for some dedicated cyclists to accept, but most people
really don't like exerting themselves. We're different that way, and
we'd be smart to realize that we are.

This might be a useful analogy for you: I have friends who are
absolutely baffled that I have no interest in playing golf. It doesn't
matter how many golf courses they build. It doesn't matter if they
build one adjacent to my back yard. I'm not going to get into golf.
And by the same token, they are not going to ride their bikes to the
golf course.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Advertising helps a lot. Nobody is promoting biking and walking.

Ain't that funny?

If you bombard a monkey with SUV advertising, he may want one too.

Does that prove that every monkey wants to be a gorilla? ?

The monkeys also know --rather intuitively-- that the invitation to join the animals behind the wheel carries a big danger. Fear is in the air.

They can be lazy but this is the exception rather than the rule. Being sedentary brings obesity and mental distress. The monkey can get depressive or aggressive, which happens to rhyme.

Ah yes, the monkeys.

Monkeys are filthy little creatures that, except for one species in
Japan, never take baths. And they smell like it.

They also have a very nasty habit. They **** in their hand and throw
it at someone.
Oh! I see. It takes a while for the penny to drop
--
and a good day to you Sir,

The Mighty Ant