Ads |
#72
|
|||
|
|||
Chain Lube?
On 11/18/2018 6:57 PM, John B. slocomb wrote:
On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 16:18:41 -0800 (PST), wrote: On Sunday, November 18, 2018 at 4:02:50 PM UTC-8, John B. slocomb wrote: On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 10:35:49 -0800 (PST), wrote: On Saturday, November 17, 2018 at 3:40:25 PM UTC-8, John B. slocomb wrote: On Sat, 17 Nov 2018 12:25:25 -0800, sms wrote: On 11/15/2018 1:25 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: I missed the part that referred back to your original suggestion of using Dow Molykote D-321 R Dry Film lubricant. However, I prefer to debate the current point of contention: Will a solvent carrier transport grease into a chain link (without boiling in oil or pressure injection)? Yes. That's how commercial chain lubricants are formulated. The solvent carrier carries the lubricant onto the pins and rollers. "PJ1 Black Label is designed for standard non-”O”ring chains. PJ1 Black Label has a foaming action that penetrates pins and rollers as well as lubricating the rollers, sprocket and side plates. After penetrating the inside of the chain, PJ1 Black Label chain lube becomes a sticky lubricant that bounces back or has a “memory” effect that withstands the continual mechanical stress of the chain." For a very thick solid lubricant like wax, it has to be thinned by heating to penetrate. It now appears that people that use wax also add oil to the mixture because wax alone doesn't last very long. Perhaps in the future they'll decide that the oil alone is sufficient. But probably not. Tradition. It's like people that still change their car's oil every 3000 miles. It's just not possible to make them understand that it does not provide any advantage. It's called "recreational oil changing" just as waxing a chain is called "recreational chain waxing." I remember you mentioning this "foaming action" several times before, but I am wondering exactly how this "foaming action" forces oil through the narrow passageway between the side plates. After all we are talking about a passageway that is very narrow with ambient pressure on one side and The Lord only knows what pressure on the other. What contains the tiny little bubbles in the foam that allows them to apply sufficient pressure to force themselves down into the dark and dismal depths of the chain? After all when a glass of beer is served with a head of foam the foam doesn't seem to exert sufficient pressure to force itself down into the beer, quite the opposite in fact, the foam seems to rise to the top. I might also comment that, in the gas and oil industry, producers spend considerable time and effort to de-gas, i.e. remove the foam, from oil before forcing it down a pipeline. As an aside, can you provide any reference from a reliable source that describes using a wax as a chain lube as being "recreational chain waxing"? After all Frank provided a reference from a source that seems to be the "last word" in measuring friction losses in the bicycle world that stated that the lowest losses were from using a wax lubricated chain, that described in detain how the test was made. cheers, John B. John, the popping of the bubbles that compose the foam puts a pressure inside the foam where it contacts the rollers. I'm not one to have a great deal of faith in this but it does appear to be plenty of lube everywhere including your chainstay and everyone within a yard of the operation. I'm not sure that this explanation is valid in that a bubble contains pressure inside the bubble but can only apply pressure outside the bubble if it is contained in some manner. Think of a balloon. Blow it up and then it simply floats around bumping into things and doesn't penetrate a bit. Or, as in my original post, bubbles in a glass of beer... or for those in an upper financial bracket, bubbles in a glass of champagne. The best I've used is Rock and Roll. This contains a Teflon lubricant in a solvent. You roll the chain and liberally spray the stuff on the chain/rear cassette for several revolutions of the chain. The solvent washes off the dirt and old lubricant. You then use a cloth to wipe as much of the chain dry as possible and then allow the chain to dry overnight. The Teflon penetrates between the rollers and the solvent evaporates overnight. So you have a clean chain that actually does have lubrication that you can actually feel and it is dry so the chain doesn't pick up dirt or leave muck on the chain rings and cogs. Of course this stuff is as expensive as gold and you have to use it fairly often to clean everything. Amazon has R&R Gold for $6.66 for 4 oz. cheers, John B. John, you don't seem to have the engineering concept. A lubricant bubble doesn't "bounce" off of anything. If the chain is dry each bubble progressive pops and wets and area. The next bubble floats along this lubricated surface until it in turn reaches an unlubricated surface etc. The bubbles are similar to your balloon idea save they have a very weak surface tension which is disturbed by anything other than the lubricant itself. Fine, I can agree with that but the idea that bubbles, for some reason, aid in forcing the lubricant into cracks and crevices is, at least in the descriptions offered to date, seems to be a factor of advertising not reality. Only about one part in eight of Rock and Roll is Teflon (the actual lubricant). A four ounce bottle is good for at the most, two application of a clean chain or one of a dirty one. I'd say that makes it expensive, wouldn't you? Gee, I don't know. In a previous post I offered the suggestion that cyclists probably shouldn't talk about prices and quoted TREK's prices to their top road and mountain bikes - $12,000 and $9,000 if I remember. And certainly TREK wouldn't be making them if they couldn't sell them. $6.66 on a $12,000 bicycle sounds like chicken feed. chicken feed you can make yourself: https://c1.staticflickr.com/7/6235/6...855a357c_b.jpg -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#73
|
|||
|
|||
Chain Lube?
On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 19:09:35 -0600, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/18/2018 6:57 PM, John B. slocomb wrote: On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 16:18:41 -0800 (PST), wrote: On Sunday, November 18, 2018 at 4:02:50 PM UTC-8, John B. slocomb wrote: On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 10:35:49 -0800 (PST), wrote: On Saturday, November 17, 2018 at 3:40:25 PM UTC-8, John B. slocomb wrote: On Sat, 17 Nov 2018 12:25:25 -0800, sms wrote: On 11/15/2018 1:25 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: I missed the part that referred back to your original suggestion of using Dow Molykote D-321 R Dry Film lubricant. However, I prefer to debate the current point of contention: Will a solvent carrier transport grease into a chain link (without boiling in oil or pressure injection)? Yes. That's how commercial chain lubricants are formulated. The solvent carrier carries the lubricant onto the pins and rollers. "PJ1 Black Label is designed for standard non-”O”ring chains. PJ1 Black Label has a foaming action that penetrates pins and rollers as well as lubricating the rollers, sprocket and side plates. After penetrating the inside of the chain, PJ1 Black Label chain lube becomes a sticky lubricant that bounces back or has a “memory” effect that withstands the continual mechanical stress of the chain." For a very thick solid lubricant like wax, it has to be thinned by heating to penetrate. It now appears that people that use wax also add oil to the mixture because wax alone doesn't last very long. Perhaps in the future they'll decide that the oil alone is sufficient. But probably not. Tradition. It's like people that still change their car's oil every 3000 miles. It's just not possible to make them understand that it does not provide any advantage. It's called "recreational oil changing" just as waxing a chain is called "recreational chain waxing." I remember you mentioning this "foaming action" several times before, but I am wondering exactly how this "foaming action" forces oil through the narrow passageway between the side plates. After all we are talking about a passageway that is very narrow with ambient pressure on one side and The Lord only knows what pressure on the other. What contains the tiny little bubbles in the foam that allows them to apply sufficient pressure to force themselves down into the dark and dismal depths of the chain? After all when a glass of beer is served with a head of foam the foam doesn't seem to exert sufficient pressure to force itself down into the beer, quite the opposite in fact, the foam seems to rise to the top. I might also comment that, in the gas and oil industry, producers spend considerable time and effort to de-gas, i.e. remove the foam, from oil before forcing it down a pipeline. As an aside, can you provide any reference from a reliable source that describes using a wax as a chain lube as being "recreational chain waxing"? After all Frank provided a reference from a source that seems to be the "last word" in measuring friction losses in the bicycle world that stated that the lowest losses were from using a wax lubricated chain, that described in detain how the test was made. cheers, John B. John, the popping of the bubbles that compose the foam puts a pressure inside the foam where it contacts the rollers. I'm not one to have a great deal of faith in this but it does appear to be plenty of lube everywhere including your chainstay and everyone within a yard of the operation. I'm not sure that this explanation is valid in that a bubble contains pressure inside the bubble but can only apply pressure outside the bubble if it is contained in some manner. Think of a balloon. Blow it up and then it simply floats around bumping into things and doesn't penetrate a bit. Or, as in my original post, bubbles in a glass of beer... or for those in an upper financial bracket, bubbles in a glass of champagne. The best I've used is Rock and Roll. This contains a Teflon lubricant in a solvent. You roll the chain and liberally spray the stuff on the chain/rear cassette for several revolutions of the chain. The solvent washes off the dirt and old lubricant. You then use a cloth to wipe as much of the chain dry as possible and then allow the chain to dry overnight. The Teflon penetrates between the rollers and the solvent evaporates overnight. So you have a clean chain that actually does have lubrication that you can actually feel and it is dry so the chain doesn't pick up dirt or leave muck on the chain rings and cogs. Of course this stuff is as expensive as gold and you have to use it fairly often to clean everything. Amazon has R&R Gold for $6.66 for 4 oz. cheers, John B. John, you don't seem to have the engineering concept. A lubricant bubble doesn't "bounce" off of anything. If the chain is dry each bubble progressive pops and wets and area. The next bubble floats along this lubricated surface until it in turn reaches an unlubricated surface etc. The bubbles are similar to your balloon idea save they have a very weak surface tension which is disturbed by anything other than the lubricant itself. Fine, I can agree with that but the idea that bubbles, for some reason, aid in forcing the lubricant into cracks and crevices is, at least in the descriptions offered to date, seems to be a factor of advertising not reality. Only about one part in eight of Rock and Roll is Teflon (the actual lubricant). A four ounce bottle is good for at the most, two application of a clean chain or one of a dirty one. I'd say that makes it expensive, wouldn't you? Gee, I don't know. In a previous post I offered the suggestion that cyclists probably shouldn't talk about prices and quoted TREK's prices to their top road and mountain bikes - $12,000 and $9,000 if I remember. And certainly TREK wouldn't be making them if they couldn't sell them. $6.66 on a $12,000 bicycle sounds like chicken feed. chicken feed you can make yourself: https://c1.staticflickr.com/7/6235/6...855a357c_b.jpg :-) Just like you can make chain lube yourself :-) cheers, John B. |
#74
|
|||
|
|||
Chain Lube?
sms wrote:
On 11/18/2018 10:35 AM, wrote: snip John, the popping of the bubbles that compose the foam puts a pressure inside the foam where it contacts the rollers. I'm not one to have a great deal of faith in this but it does appear to be plenty of lube everywhere including your chainstay and everyone within a yard of the operation. The best I've used is Rock and Roll. This contains a Teflon lubricant in a solvent. You roll the chain and liberally spray the stuff on the chain/rear cassette for several revolutions of the chain. The solvent washes off the dirt and old lubricant. You then use a cloth to wipe as much of the chain dry as possible and then allow the chain to dry overnight. The Teflon penetrates between the rollers and the solvent evaporates overnight. So you have a clean chain that actually does have lubrication that you can actually feel and it is dry so the chain doesn't pick up dirt or leave muck on the chain rings and cogs. Of course this stuff is as expensive as gold and you have to use it fairly often to clean everything. I will give this a try. The foaming chain lubricant works wonderfully well as a lubricant but you have to clean the chain first. I think that I speak for many here in that we are Looking to minimize time spent on chain maintenance while still having a chain that is both cleaned and lubed. A little extra money is worth it. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000IQCMD4 From the question/answer section: Question: Does the RnR Gold clean the chain? Or do I still need a degreaser? Answer: RnR Gold is not a cleaner, Clean your chain before you lube it and make sure to wipe off the excess so that it doesn't collect dust and dirt. -- duane |
#75
|
|||
|
|||
Chain Lube?
On Sunday, November 18, 2018 at 4:57:31 PM UTC-8, John B. slocomb wrote:
On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 16:18:41 -0800 (PST), wrote: On Sunday, November 18, 2018 at 4:02:50 PM UTC-8, John B. slocomb wrote: On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 10:35:49 -0800 (PST), wrote: On Saturday, November 17, 2018 at 3:40:25 PM UTC-8, John B. slocomb wrote: On Sat, 17 Nov 2018 12:25:25 -0800, sms wrote: On 11/15/2018 1:25 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: I missed the part that referred back to your original suggestion of using Dow Molykote D-321 R Dry Film lubricant. However, I prefer to debate the current point of contention: Will a solvent carrier transport grease into a chain link (without boiling in oil or pressure injection)? Yes. That's how commercial chain lubricants are formulated. The solvent carrier carries the lubricant onto the pins and rollers. "PJ1 Black Label is designed for standard non-”O”ring chains. PJ1 Black Label has a foaming action that penetrates pins and rollers as well as lubricating the rollers, sprocket and side plates. After penetrating the inside of the chain, PJ1 Black Label chain lube becomes a sticky lubricant that bounces back or has a “memory” effect that withstands the continual mechanical stress of the chain." For a very thick solid lubricant like wax, it has to be thinned by heating to penetrate. It now appears that people that use wax also add oil to the mixture because wax alone doesn't last very long. Perhaps in the future they'll decide that the oil alone is sufficient. But probably not. Tradition. It's like people that still change their car's oil every 3000 miles. It's just not possible to make them understand that it does not provide any advantage. It's called "recreational oil changing" just as waxing a chain is called "recreational chain waxing." I remember you mentioning this "foaming action" several times before, but I am wondering exactly how this "foaming action" forces oil through the narrow passageway between the side plates. After all we are talking about a passageway that is very narrow with ambient pressure on one side and The Lord only knows what pressure on the other. What contains the tiny little bubbles in the foam that allows them to apply sufficient pressure to force themselves down into the dark and dismal depths of the chain? After all when a glass of beer is served with a head of foam the foam doesn't seem to exert sufficient pressure to force itself down into the beer, quite the opposite in fact, the foam seems to rise to the top. I might also comment that, in the gas and oil industry, producers spend considerable time and effort to de-gas, i.e. remove the foam, from oil before forcing it down a pipeline. As an aside, can you provide any reference from a reliable source that describes using a wax as a chain lube as being "recreational chain waxing"? After all Frank provided a reference from a source that seems to be the "last word" in measuring friction losses in the bicycle world that stated that the lowest losses were from using a wax lubricated chain, that described in detain how the test was made. cheers, John B. John, the popping of the bubbles that compose the foam puts a pressure inside the foam where it contacts the rollers. I'm not one to have a great deal of faith in this but it does appear to be plenty of lube everywhere including your chainstay and everyone within a yard of the operation. I'm not sure that this explanation is valid in that a bubble contains pressure inside the bubble but can only apply pressure outside the bubble if it is contained in some manner. Think of a balloon. Blow it up and then it simply floats around bumping into things and doesn't penetrate a bit. Or, as in my original post, bubbles in a glass of beer... or for those in an upper financial bracket, bubbles in a glass of champagne. The best I've used is Rock and Roll. This contains a Teflon lubricant in a solvent. You roll the chain and liberally spray the stuff on the chain/rear cassette for several revolutions of the chain. The solvent washes off the dirt and old lubricant. You then use a cloth to wipe as much of the chain dry as possible and then allow the chain to dry overnight. The Teflon penetrates between the rollers and the solvent evaporates overnight. So you have a clean chain that actually does have lubrication that you can actually feel and it is dry so the chain doesn't pick up dirt or leave muck on the chain rings and cogs. Of course this stuff is as expensive as gold and you have to use it fairly often to clean everything. Amazon has R&R Gold for $6.66 for 4 oz. cheers, John B. John, you don't seem to have the engineering concept. A lubricant bubble doesn't "bounce" off of anything. If the chain is dry each bubble progressive pops and wets and area. The next bubble floats along this lubricated surface until it in turn reaches an unlubricated surface etc. The bubbles are similar to your balloon idea save they have a very weak surface tension which is disturbed by anything other than the lubricant itself. Fine, I can agree with that but the idea that bubbles, for some reason, aid in forcing the lubricant into cracks and crevices is, at least in the descriptions offered to date, seems to be a factor of advertising not reality. Only about one part in eight of Rock and Roll is Teflon (the actual lubricant). A four ounce bottle is good for at the most, two application of a clean chain or one of a dirty one. I'd say that makes it expensive, wouldn't you? Gee, I don't know. In a previous post I offered the suggestion that cyclists probably shouldn't talk about prices and quoted TREK's prices to their top road and mountain bikes - $12,000 and $9,000 if I remember. And certainly TREK wouldn't be making them if they couldn't sell them. $6.66 on a $12,000 bicycle sounds like chicken feed. cheers, John B. John, how much have you paid for chain lube over the last year? I bought the 16 ounce bottle of Rock and Roll two years ago. |
#76
|
|||
|
|||
Chain Lube?
On Monday, November 19, 2018 at 3:54:48 AM UTC-8, Duane wrote:
sms wrote: On 11/18/2018 10:35 AM, wrote: snip John, the popping of the bubbles that compose the foam puts a pressure inside the foam where it contacts the rollers. I'm not one to have a great deal of faith in this but it does appear to be plenty of lube everywhere including your chainstay and everyone within a yard of the operation. The best I've used is Rock and Roll. This contains a Teflon lubricant in a solvent. You roll the chain and liberally spray the stuff on the chain/rear cassette for several revolutions of the chain. The solvent washes off the dirt and old lubricant. You then use a cloth to wipe as much of the chain dry as possible and then allow the chain to dry overnight. The Teflon penetrates between the rollers and the solvent evaporates overnight. So you have a clean chain that actually does have lubrication that you can actually feel and it is dry so the chain doesn't pick up dirt or leave muck on the chain rings and cogs. Of course this stuff is as expensive as gold and you have to use it fairly often to clean everything. I will give this a try. The foaming chain lubricant works wonderfully well as a lubricant but you have to clean the chain first. I think that I speak for many here in that we are Looking to minimize time spent on chain maintenance while still having a chain that is both cleaned and lubed. A little extra money is worth it. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000IQCMD4 From the question/answer section: Question: Does the RnR Gold clean the chain? Or do I still need a degreaser? Answer: RnR Gold is not a cleaner, Clean your chain before you lube it and make sure to wipe off the excess so that it doesn't collect dust and dirt. -- duane "The “King of Lubes” has three chain lubes: The EXTREME, ABSOLUTE DRY, and GOLD. All three are formulated to clean and lube at the same time when applied. " |
#77
|
|||
|
|||
Chain Lube?
|
#78
|
|||
|
|||
Chain Lube?
On Sat, 17 Nov 2018 13:24:16 +0700, John B. slocomb
wrote: A day late but we were in Bangkok for a couple of days :-) Out of service for a few days (or weeks) with yet another kidney stone. I'll get back to chain lube testing when I recover. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#79
|
|||
|
|||
Chain Lube?
On Monday, November 19, 2018 at 9:45:31 AM UTC-8, sms wrote:
On 11/19/2018 8:56 AM, wrote: snip "The “King of Lubes” has three chain lubes: The EXTREME, ABSOLUTE DRY, and GOLD. All three are formulated to clean and lube at the same time when applied. " Not sure if I believe this. It's like combined shampoo and conditioner. I suppose that I'll continue with the old-school method of cleaning a chain with petroleum based solvent and then lubricating it with chain lube. With a chain cleaner, I can clean a chain five minutes or so and then recycle dirty solvent. Well, I didn't believe it either but after trying it, it appears to work pretty well but you're wiping off the chain for a long time after using the stuff. |
#80
|
|||
|
|||
Chain Lube?
On Monday, November 19, 2018 at 10:21:39 AM UTC-8, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sat, 17 Nov 2018 13:24:16 +0700, John B. slocomb wrote: A day late but we were in Bangkok for a couple of days :-) Out of service for a few days (or weeks) with yet another kidney stone. I'll get back to chain lube testing when I recover. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 Sorry to hear that. All of us old farts seem to be suffering from one kind or another of health problems. |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Factory lube/chaincase experiment (X8 chain, Chainglider chain case,Surly SS & Rohloff gears) | Andre Jute[_2_] | Techniques | 15 | July 14th 13 08:07 PM |
chain lube | Mark-T | General | 8 | February 15th 06 09:37 PM |
Chain lube | Si | UK | 13 | August 20th 05 07:24 AM |
CHAIN LUBE CHAIN LUBE CHAIN LUBE | [email protected] | Techniques | 0 | March 19th 05 03:52 PM |
Chain Lube | Doki | Mountain Biking | 8 | October 22nd 04 09:07 PM |