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  #31  
Old January 11th 19, 01:36 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 550
Default More Justice Department Hiding

On Thu, 10 Jan 2019 12:41:08 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Tuesday, January 8, 2019 at 3:35:22 PM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote:
rOn Tue, 8 Jan 2019 10:15:18 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Monday, January 7, 2019 at 11:16:53 AM UTC-8, news18 wrote:
On Mon, 07 Jan 2019 09:06:37 -0800, sltom992 wrote:

On Sunday, January 6, 2019 at 7:04:24 PM UTC-8, news18 wrote:
On Sun, 06 Jan 2019 07:00:36 -0800, sltom992 wrote:

So, no you weren't aware and need a reference but yes you were aware.
I am never surprised by your statements.

Most people who know even a lttle bit about "cloud seeding" will know
that claiming it affected the weather was at best a dubious long shot.
Somewhere around there is a apaper showeing that "rain dances" have a
greater correlation to the claim of "afffecting the weather".

It is not in the least "dubious" and was actually used by the CIA in the
Vietnam war to mire the North Vietnamese and Cambodians down in mud and
mire. There's no questioned that it worked. There is also no question
that NASA has used cloud seeding to eliminate clouds in order to have
clear weather for space launches.

Yawn, if you cloud seed in an area and time when it s going to rain
naturally, then you can hardly "cloud seeding worked".

Contrails have been blamed for large scale cooling along flight paths
which are growing more and more numerous. These contrails are nothing
more than cumulous clouds. At any moment in the USA there are 3,000
aircraft in the air. And they use the dirtiest of fuel.

And dirty fuel emits particles that water vapour coalesces about. So your
point is?

Of course you can't make blue sky rain. But they could make it rain in places where they wanted the rain to fall when it would normally be falling in
Thailand. Laos and Cambodia would receive the rain so that the

north Vietnamese couldn't travel down the Ho Chi Minh Trail. This
prevented attacks from the back side of the dividing line. This ALL
worked. In fact North Vietnam admitted that they were beaten. But
after Lyndon Johnson pulled American Troops out of South Vietnam he
cut all military aid to the South and that gave the North the
advantage again.


Quite simply, you don't know what you are talking about. Firstly, the
so called "Ho Chi Minh Trail" wasn't a "trail" it was a series of
paths, roads and byways, some with considerable improvement including
camp facilities that allowed the Northerners to transport supplies to
their troops in the south using trucks, bicycles, water buffalos, and
human porters.

The idea that "if it rains that won't be able to use the trail" is one
of the more stupid ideas that the U.S. had during the war. The idea
that all movement stops during the monsoon is ludicrous. It would mean
that nothing moved in most of South East Asia for nearly half of each
year.

And proof? Well, I guess that the fact that the North did supply their
people in the South all year round is proof, isn't it? And, even
General Westmoreland stated that he thought there was "no appreciable
increase" in rain from the project.

As for N. Vietnam admitting that they were beaten? I guess you'll have
to prove that as it appears to be just another one of your pipe
dreams.

I might add that Thailand has since about 1969 has had an official
"cloud seeding" project. The results vary from year to year but
overall the project has not been a resounding success, other than as a
political act to demonstrate the "government's concern" for the
farmers.


Firstly there were no "road improvements" that anyone in the US would call an improvement - muddy car tracks over a dozen miles are what they were.


Errr... I hate to be the one to tell you but the so called Ho Chi Minh
trail wasn't in the United States. And, (1) I have seen actual
photographs of portions of the trail, taken by Special Forces troops,
that had interdicted parts of the trail showing the man made
improvements, (2) the U.S. bombed portions of the trail and lo and
behold in a week or so the damage was repaired and (3) by 1974 the
"trail" had become a 2 lane paved highway.


Secondly you can't "increase" the amounts of rain by seeding but only have it occur in other areas than it would have fallen.


Strange as the intent of Operation Popeye (the rain making program
that you have been talking about) was stated to be: " to induce rain
and extend the East Asian Monsoon season in support of U.S. government
efforts related to the War in Southeast Asia".

Unfortunately it wasn't a success and from the minutes of the Senate
hearing of May 19, 1874:
"While this program had an effect on the primitive road conditions in
these areas the results were certainly limited and unverifiable."


Thirdly the North Vietnamese surrendered at the Paris Peace Treaty and then because the Democrats wouldn't continue to support the South Vietnamese military and continue air support the North Vietnamese simply ignored the Treaty and the Democrats used that as an election point.


Where did you get the idea that the N. Vietnamese "surrendered". What
actually effectively happened was that the U.S. withdrew from the war
basically for political reasons and agreed to support the South
logistically.

President Lyndon B. Johnson halted bombing operations over the
northern portion of the North Vietnam (Operation Rolling Thunder), in
order to encourage Hanoi to begin negotiations. Shortly thereafter,
Hanoi agreed to discuss a complete halt of the bombing, and a date was
set for representatives of both parties to meet in Paris, France. The
sides first met on May 10, with the delegations headed by Xuân Thuy,
who would remain the official leader of the North Vietnamese
delegation throughout the process, and U.S. ambassador-at-large W.
Averell Harriman.

For five months, the negotiations stalled as North Vietnam demanded
that all bombing of North Vietnam be stopped, while the U.S. side
demanded that North Vietnam agree to a reciprocal de-escalation in
South Vietnam; it was not until October 31 that Johnson agreed to end
the air strikes and serious negotiations could begin.

"The Paris Agreement Treaty would in effect remove all remaining US
Forces, including air and naval forces in exchange for Hanoi's POWs.
Direct U.S. military intervention was ended, and fighting between the
three remaining powers temporarily stopped for less than a day...

The agreement's provisions were immediately frequently broken with no
response from the United States. Fighting broke out in March 1973, and
North Vietnamese offenses enlarged their control by the end of the
year. Two years later, a massive North Vietnamese offensive conquered
South Vietnam. "

Tom, I keep telling you that "it is better to remain silent and be
thought a fool then to open your mouth and prove it" but you just
don't listen.


cheers,

John B.


Ads
  #32  
Old January 11th 19, 01:44 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 550
Default More Justice Department Hiding

On Thu, 10 Jan 2019 13:31:23 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:

On Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 12:41:10 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Tuesday, January 8, 2019 at 3:35:22 PM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote:
rOn Tue, 8 Jan 2019 10:15:18 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Monday, January 7, 2019 at 11:16:53 AM UTC-8, news18 wrote:
On Mon, 07 Jan 2019 09:06:37 -0800, sltom992 wrote:

On Sunday, January 6, 2019 at 7:04:24 PM UTC-8, news18 wrote:
On Sun, 06 Jan 2019 07:00:36 -0800, sltom992 wrote:

So, no you weren't aware and need a reference but yes you were aware.
I am never surprised by your statements.

Most people who know even a lttle bit about "cloud seeding" will know
that claiming it affected the weather was at best a dubious long shot.
Somewhere around there is a apaper showeing that "rain dances" have a
greater correlation to the claim of "afffecting the weather".

It is not in the least "dubious" and was actually used by the CIA in the
Vietnam war to mire the North Vietnamese and Cambodians down in mud and
mire. There's no questioned that it worked. There is also no question
that NASA has used cloud seeding to eliminate clouds in order to have
clear weather for space launches.

Yawn, if you cloud seed in an area and time when it s going to rain
naturally, then you can hardly "cloud seeding worked".

Contrails have been blamed for large scale cooling along flight paths
which are growing more and more numerous. These contrails are nothing
more than cumulous clouds. At any moment in the USA there are 3,000
aircraft in the air. And they use the dirtiest of fuel.

And dirty fuel emits particles that water vapour coalesces about. So your
point is?

Of course you can't make blue sky rain. But they could make it rain in places where they wanted the rain to fall when it would normally be falling in
Thailand. Laos and Cambodia would receive the rain so that the
north Vietnamese couldn't travel down the Ho Chi Minh Trail. This
prevented attacks from the back side of the dividing line. This ALL
worked. In fact North Vietnam admitted that they were beaten. But
after Lyndon Johnson pulled American Troops out of South Vietnam he
cut all military aid to the South and that gave the North the
advantage again.


Quite simply, you don't know what you are talking about. Firstly, the
so called "Ho Chi Minh Trail" wasn't a "trail" it was a series of
paths, roads and byways, some with considerable improvement including
camp facilities that allowed the Northerners to transport supplies to
their troops in the south using trucks, bicycles, water buffalos, and
human porters.

The idea that "if it rains that won't be able to use the trail" is one
of the more stupid ideas that the U.S. had during the war. The idea
that all movement stops during the monsoon is ludicrous. It would mean
that nothing moved in most of South East Asia for nearly half of each
year.

And proof? Well, I guess that the fact that the North did supply their
people in the South all year round is proof, isn't it? And, even
General Westmoreland stated that he thought there was "no appreciable
increase" in rain from the project.

As for N. Vietnam admitting that they were beaten? I guess you'll have
to prove that as it appears to be just another one of your pipe
dreams.

I might add that Thailand has since about 1969 has had an official
"cloud seeding" project. The results vary from year to year but
overall the project has not been a resounding success, other than as a
political act to demonstrate the "government's concern" for the
farmers.


Firstly there were no "road improvements" that anyone in the US would call an improvement - muddy car tracks over a dozen miles are what they were.

Secondly you can't "increase" the amounts of rain by seeding but only have it occur in other areas than it would have fallen.

Thirdly the North Vietnamese surrendered at the Paris Peace Treaty and then because the Democrats wouldn't continue to support the South Vietnamese military and continue air support the North Vietnamese simply ignored the Treaty and the Democrats used that as an election point.


Wow! North Viet Nam surrendered? Who knew? BTW, to whom did they surrender?

-- Jay Beattie.


A friend, who makes a study of such matters, commented that when the
N. Vietnamese came to Paris they took a long term lease on a building
while the Americans rented hotel rooms.

Which perhaps is an indication of who planned on getting their way in
the discussions.

cheers,

John B.


  #33  
Old January 11th 19, 05:36 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 637
Default More Justice Department Hiding

On Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 1:31:26 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 12:41:10 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Tuesday, January 8, 2019 at 3:35:22 PM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote:
rOn Tue, 8 Jan 2019 10:15:18 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Monday, January 7, 2019 at 11:16:53 AM UTC-8, news18 wrote:
On Mon, 07 Jan 2019 09:06:37 -0800, sltom992 wrote:

On Sunday, January 6, 2019 at 7:04:24 PM UTC-8, news18 wrote:
On Sun, 06 Jan 2019 07:00:36 -0800, sltom992 wrote:

So, no you weren't aware and need a reference but yes you were aware.
I am never surprised by your statements.

Most people who know even a lttle bit about "cloud seeding" will know
that claiming it affected the weather was at best a dubious long shot.
Somewhere around there is a apaper showeing that "rain dances" have a
greater correlation to the claim of "afffecting the weather".

It is not in the least "dubious" and was actually used by the CIA in the
Vietnam war to mire the North Vietnamese and Cambodians down in mud and
mire. There's no questioned that it worked. There is also no question
that NASA has used cloud seeding to eliminate clouds in order to have
clear weather for space launches.

Yawn, if you cloud seed in an area and time when it s going to rain
naturally, then you can hardly "cloud seeding worked".

Contrails have been blamed for large scale cooling along flight paths
which are growing more and more numerous. These contrails are nothing
more than cumulous clouds. At any moment in the USA there are 3,000
aircraft in the air. And they use the dirtiest of fuel.

And dirty fuel emits particles that water vapour coalesces about. So your
point is?

Of course you can't make blue sky rain. But they could make it rain in places where they wanted the rain to fall when it would normally be falling in
Thailand. Laos and Cambodia would receive the rain so that the
north Vietnamese couldn't travel down the Ho Chi Minh Trail. This
prevented attacks from the back side of the dividing line. This ALL
worked. In fact North Vietnam admitted that they were beaten. But
after Lyndon Johnson pulled American Troops out of South Vietnam he
cut all military aid to the South and that gave the North the
advantage again.


Quite simply, you don't know what you are talking about. Firstly, the
so called "Ho Chi Minh Trail" wasn't a "trail" it was a series of
paths, roads and byways, some with considerable improvement including
camp facilities that allowed the Northerners to transport supplies to
their troops in the south using trucks, bicycles, water buffalos, and
human porters.

The idea that "if it rains that won't be able to use the trail" is one
of the more stupid ideas that the U.S. had during the war. The idea
that all movement stops during the monsoon is ludicrous. It would mean
that nothing moved in most of South East Asia for nearly half of each
year.

And proof? Well, I guess that the fact that the North did supply their
people in the South all year round is proof, isn't it? And, even
General Westmoreland stated that he thought there was "no appreciable
increase" in rain from the project.

As for N. Vietnam admitting that they were beaten? I guess you'll have
to prove that as it appears to be just another one of your pipe
dreams.

I might add that Thailand has since about 1969 has had an official
"cloud seeding" project. The results vary from year to year but
overall the project has not been a resounding success, other than as a
political act to demonstrate the "government's concern" for the
farmers.


Firstly there were no "road improvements" that anyone in the US would call an improvement - muddy car tracks over a dozen miles are what they were..

Secondly you can't "increase" the amounts of rain by seeding but only have it occur in other areas than it would have fallen.

Thirdly the North Vietnamese surrendered at the Paris Peace Treaty and then because the Democrats wouldn't continue to support the South Vietnamese military and continue air support the North Vietnamese simply ignored the Treaty and the Democrats used that as an election point.


Wow! North Viet Nam surrendered? Who knew? BTW, to whom did they surrender?

-- Jay Beattie.


Here we have again another example of what lengths you will go to to attempt to prove me wrong. You really are a Fred.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Peace_Accords
  #34  
Old January 11th 19, 05:38 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 637
Default More Justice Department Hiding

On Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 4:36:19 PM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 10 Jan 2019 12:41:08 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Tuesday, January 8, 2019 at 3:35:22 PM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote:
rOn Tue, 8 Jan 2019 10:15:18 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Monday, January 7, 2019 at 11:16:53 AM UTC-8, news18 wrote:
On Mon, 07 Jan 2019 09:06:37 -0800, sltom992 wrote:

On Sunday, January 6, 2019 at 7:04:24 PM UTC-8, news18 wrote:
On Sun, 06 Jan 2019 07:00:36 -0800, sltom992 wrote:

So, no you weren't aware and need a reference but yes you were aware.
I am never surprised by your statements.

Most people who know even a lttle bit about "cloud seeding" will know
that claiming it affected the weather was at best a dubious long shot.
Somewhere around there is a apaper showeing that "rain dances" have a
greater correlation to the claim of "afffecting the weather".

It is not in the least "dubious" and was actually used by the CIA in the
Vietnam war to mire the North Vietnamese and Cambodians down in mud and
mire. There's no questioned that it worked. There is also no question
that NASA has used cloud seeding to eliminate clouds in order to have
clear weather for space launches.

Yawn, if you cloud seed in an area and time when it s going to rain
naturally, then you can hardly "cloud seeding worked".

Contrails have been blamed for large scale cooling along flight paths
which are growing more and more numerous. These contrails are nothing
more than cumulous clouds. At any moment in the USA there are 3,000
aircraft in the air. And they use the dirtiest of fuel.

And dirty fuel emits particles that water vapour coalesces about. So your
point is?

Of course you can't make blue sky rain. But they could make it rain in places where they wanted the rain to fall when it would normally be falling in
Thailand. Laos and Cambodia would receive the rain so that the
north Vietnamese couldn't travel down the Ho Chi Minh Trail. This
prevented attacks from the back side of the dividing line. This ALL
worked. In fact North Vietnam admitted that they were beaten. But
after Lyndon Johnson pulled American Troops out of South Vietnam he
cut all military aid to the South and that gave the North the
advantage again.


Quite simply, you don't know what you are talking about. Firstly, the
so called "Ho Chi Minh Trail" wasn't a "trail" it was a series of
paths, roads and byways, some with considerable improvement including
camp facilities that allowed the Northerners to transport supplies to
their troops in the south using trucks, bicycles, water buffalos, and
human porters.

The idea that "if it rains that won't be able to use the trail" is one
of the more stupid ideas that the U.S. had during the war. The idea
that all movement stops during the monsoon is ludicrous. It would mean
that nothing moved in most of South East Asia for nearly half of each
year.

And proof? Well, I guess that the fact that the North did supply their
people in the South all year round is proof, isn't it? And, even
General Westmoreland stated that he thought there was "no appreciable
increase" in rain from the project.

As for N. Vietnam admitting that they were beaten? I guess you'll have
to prove that as it appears to be just another one of your pipe
dreams.

I might add that Thailand has since about 1969 has had an official
"cloud seeding" project. The results vary from year to year but
overall the project has not been a resounding success, other than as a
political act to demonstrate the "government's concern" for the
farmers.


Firstly there were no "road improvements" that anyone in the US would call an improvement - muddy car tracks over a dozen miles are what they were.


Errr... I hate to be the one to tell you but the so called Ho Chi Minh
trail wasn't in the United States. And, (1) I have seen actual
photographs of portions of the trail, taken by Special Forces troops,
that had interdicted parts of the trail showing the man made
improvements, (2) the U.S. bombed portions of the trail and lo and
behold in a week or so the damage was repaired and (3) by 1974 the
"trail" had become a 2 lane paved highway.


Secondly you can't "increase" the amounts of rain by seeding but only have it occur in other areas than it would have fallen.


Strange as the intent of Operation Popeye (the rain making program
that you have been talking about) was stated to be: " to induce rain
and extend the East Asian Monsoon season in support of U.S. government
efforts related to the War in Southeast Asia".

Unfortunately it wasn't a success and from the minutes of the Senate
hearing of May 19, 1874:
"While this program had an effect on the primitive road conditions in
these areas the results were certainly limited and unverifiable."


Thirdly the North Vietnamese surrendered at the Paris Peace Treaty and then because the Democrats wouldn't continue to support the South Vietnamese military and continue air support the North Vietnamese simply ignored the Treaty and the Democrats used that as an election point.


Where did you get the idea that the N. Vietnamese "surrendered". What
actually effectively happened was that the U.S. withdrew from the war
basically for political reasons and agreed to support the South
logistically.

President Lyndon B. Johnson halted bombing operations over the
northern portion of the North Vietnam (Operation Rolling Thunder), in
order to encourage Hanoi to begin negotiations. Shortly thereafter,
Hanoi agreed to discuss a complete halt of the bombing, and a date was
set for representatives of both parties to meet in Paris, France. The
sides first met on May 10, with the delegations headed by Xuân Thuy,
who would remain the official leader of the North Vietnamese
delegation throughout the process, and U.S. ambassador-at-large W.
Averell Harriman.

For five months, the negotiations stalled as North Vietnam demanded
that all bombing of North Vietnam be stopped, while the U.S. side
demanded that North Vietnam agree to a reciprocal de-escalation in
South Vietnam; it was not until October 31 that Johnson agreed to end
the air strikes and serious negotiations could begin.

"The Paris Agreement Treaty would in effect remove all remaining US
Forces, including air and naval forces in exchange for Hanoi's POWs.
Direct U.S. military intervention was ended, and fighting between the
three remaining powers temporarily stopped for less than a day...

The agreement's provisions were immediately frequently broken with no
response from the United States. Fighting broke out in March 1973, and
North Vietnamese offenses enlarged their control by the end of the
year. Two years later, a massive North Vietnamese offensive conquered
South Vietnam. "

Tom, I keep telling you that "it is better to remain silent and be
thought a fool then to open your mouth and prove it" but you just
don't listen.


cheers,

John B.


Hey dippy - I have flown over it in bombers at 5,000 ft. So shove your "pictures" since I looked at it through open bomb bay doors.
  #35  
Old January 11th 19, 08:25 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,566
Default More Justice Department Hiding

On Friday, January 11, 2019 at 8:36:14 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 1:31:26 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 12:41:10 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Tuesday, January 8, 2019 at 3:35:22 PM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote:
rOn Tue, 8 Jan 2019 10:15:18 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Monday, January 7, 2019 at 11:16:53 AM UTC-8, news18 wrote:
On Mon, 07 Jan 2019 09:06:37 -0800, sltom992 wrote:

On Sunday, January 6, 2019 at 7:04:24 PM UTC-8, news18 wrote:
On Sun, 06 Jan 2019 07:00:36 -0800, sltom992 wrote:

So, no you weren't aware and need a reference but yes you were aware.
I am never surprised by your statements.

Most people who know even a lttle bit about "cloud seeding" will know
that claiming it affected the weather was at best a dubious long shot.
Somewhere around there is a apaper showeing that "rain dances" have a
greater correlation to the claim of "afffecting the weather".

It is not in the least "dubious" and was actually used by the CIA in the
Vietnam war to mire the North Vietnamese and Cambodians down in mud and
mire. There's no questioned that it worked. There is also no question
that NASA has used cloud seeding to eliminate clouds in order to have
clear weather for space launches.

Yawn, if you cloud seed in an area and time when it s going to rain
naturally, then you can hardly "cloud seeding worked".

Contrails have been blamed for large scale cooling along flight paths
which are growing more and more numerous. These contrails are nothing
more than cumulous clouds. At any moment in the USA there are 3,000
aircraft in the air. And they use the dirtiest of fuel.

And dirty fuel emits particles that water vapour coalesces about.. So your
point is?

Of course you can't make blue sky rain. But they could make it rain in places where they wanted the rain to fall when it would normally be falling in
Thailand. Laos and Cambodia would receive the rain so that the
north Vietnamese couldn't travel down the Ho Chi Minh Trail. This
prevented attacks from the back side of the dividing line. This ALL
worked. In fact North Vietnam admitted that they were beaten. But
after Lyndon Johnson pulled American Troops out of South Vietnam he
cut all military aid to the South and that gave the North the
advantage again.


Quite simply, you don't know what you are talking about. Firstly, the
so called "Ho Chi Minh Trail" wasn't a "trail" it was a series of
paths, roads and byways, some with considerable improvement including
camp facilities that allowed the Northerners to transport supplies to
their troops in the south using trucks, bicycles, water buffalos, and
human porters.

The idea that "if it rains that won't be able to use the trail" is one
of the more stupid ideas that the U.S. had during the war. The idea
that all movement stops during the monsoon is ludicrous. It would mean
that nothing moved in most of South East Asia for nearly half of each
year.

And proof? Well, I guess that the fact that the North did supply their
people in the South all year round is proof, isn't it? And, even
General Westmoreland stated that he thought there was "no appreciable
increase" in rain from the project.

As for N. Vietnam admitting that they were beaten? I guess you'll have
to prove that as it appears to be just another one of your pipe
dreams.

I might add that Thailand has since about 1969 has had an official
"cloud seeding" project. The results vary from year to year but
overall the project has not been a resounding success, other than as a
political act to demonstrate the "government's concern" for the
farmers.

Firstly there were no "road improvements" that anyone in the US would call an improvement - muddy car tracks over a dozen miles are what they were.

Secondly you can't "increase" the amounts of rain by seeding but only have it occur in other areas than it would have fallen.

Thirdly the North Vietnamese surrendered at the Paris Peace Treaty and then because the Democrats wouldn't continue to support the South Vietnamese military and continue air support the North Vietnamese simply ignored the Treaty and the Democrats used that as an election point.


Wow! North Viet Nam surrendered? Who knew? BTW, to whom did they surrender?

-- Jay Beattie.


Here we have again another example of what lengths you will go to to attempt to prove me wrong. You really are a Fred.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Peace_Accords


I read it. North Viet Nam did not surrender.

-- Jay Beattie.
  #36  
Old January 11th 19, 10:06 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 637
Default More Justice Department Hiding

On Friday, January 11, 2019 at 11:25:18 AM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, January 11, 2019 at 8:36:14 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 1:31:26 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 12:41:10 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Tuesday, January 8, 2019 at 3:35:22 PM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote:
rOn Tue, 8 Jan 2019 10:15:18 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Monday, January 7, 2019 at 11:16:53 AM UTC-8, news18 wrote:
On Mon, 07 Jan 2019 09:06:37 -0800, sltom992 wrote:

On Sunday, January 6, 2019 at 7:04:24 PM UTC-8, news18 wrote:
On Sun, 06 Jan 2019 07:00:36 -0800, sltom992 wrote:

So, no you weren't aware and need a reference but yes you were aware.
I am never surprised by your statements.

Most people who know even a lttle bit about "cloud seeding" will know
that claiming it affected the weather was at best a dubious long shot.
Somewhere around there is a apaper showeing that "rain dances" have a
greater correlation to the claim of "afffecting the weather".

It is not in the least "dubious" and was actually used by the CIA in the
Vietnam war to mire the North Vietnamese and Cambodians down in mud and
mire. There's no questioned that it worked. There is also no question
that NASA has used cloud seeding to eliminate clouds in order to have
clear weather for space launches.

Yawn, if you cloud seed in an area and time when it s going to rain
naturally, then you can hardly "cloud seeding worked".

Contrails have been blamed for large scale cooling along flight paths
which are growing more and more numerous. These contrails are nothing
more than cumulous clouds. At any moment in the USA there are 3,000
aircraft in the air. And they use the dirtiest of fuel.

And dirty fuel emits particles that water vapour coalesces about. So your
point is?

Of course you can't make blue sky rain. But they could make it rain in places where they wanted the rain to fall when it would normally be falling in
Thailand. Laos and Cambodia would receive the rain so that the
north Vietnamese couldn't travel down the Ho Chi Minh Trail. This
prevented attacks from the back side of the dividing line. This ALL
worked. In fact North Vietnam admitted that they were beaten. But
after Lyndon Johnson pulled American Troops out of South Vietnam he
cut all military aid to the South and that gave the North the
advantage again.


Quite simply, you don't know what you are talking about. Firstly, the
so called "Ho Chi Minh Trail" wasn't a "trail" it was a series of
paths, roads and byways, some with considerable improvement including
camp facilities that allowed the Northerners to transport supplies to
their troops in the south using trucks, bicycles, water buffalos, and
human porters.

The idea that "if it rains that won't be able to use the trail" is one
of the more stupid ideas that the U.S. had during the war. The idea
that all movement stops during the monsoon is ludicrous. It would mean
that nothing moved in most of South East Asia for nearly half of each
year.

And proof? Well, I guess that the fact that the North did supply their
people in the South all year round is proof, isn't it? And, even
General Westmoreland stated that he thought there was "no appreciable
increase" in rain from the project.

As for N. Vietnam admitting that they were beaten? I guess you'll have
to prove that as it appears to be just another one of your pipe
dreams.

I might add that Thailand has since about 1969 has had an official
"cloud seeding" project. The results vary from year to year but
overall the project has not been a resounding success, other than as a
political act to demonstrate the "government's concern" for the
farmers.

Firstly there were no "road improvements" that anyone in the US would call an improvement - muddy car tracks over a dozen miles are what they were.

Secondly you can't "increase" the amounts of rain by seeding but only have it occur in other areas than it would have fallen.

Thirdly the North Vietnamese surrendered at the Paris Peace Treaty and then because the Democrats wouldn't continue to support the South Vietnamese military and continue air support the North Vietnamese simply ignored the Treaty and the Democrats used that as an election point.

Wow! North Viet Nam surrendered? Who knew? BTW, to whom did they surrender?

-- Jay Beattie.


Here we have again another example of what lengths you will go to to attempt to prove me wrong. You really are a Fred.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Peace_Accords


I read it. North Viet Nam did not surrender.

-- Jay Beattie.


No, the just agreed to return the POW's and cease waging war until they realized that the Democrats had no intentions of continuing air support and supplying arms and ammunition to the South Vietnamese Army.
  #37  
Old January 11th 19, 11:56 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 550
Default More Justice Department Hiding

On Fri, 11 Jan 2019 08:36:13 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 1:31:26 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 12:41:10 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Tuesday, January 8, 2019 at 3:35:22 PM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote:
rOn Tue, 8 Jan 2019 10:15:18 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Monday, January 7, 2019 at 11:16:53 AM UTC-8, news18 wrote:
On Mon, 07 Jan 2019 09:06:37 -0800, sltom992 wrote:

On Sunday, January 6, 2019 at 7:04:24 PM UTC-8, news18 wrote:
On Sun, 06 Jan 2019 07:00:36 -0800, sltom992 wrote:

So, no you weren't aware and need a reference but yes you were aware.
I am never surprised by your statements.

Most people who know even a lttle bit about "cloud seeding" will know
that claiming it affected the weather was at best a dubious long shot.
Somewhere around there is a apaper showeing that "rain dances" have a
greater correlation to the claim of "afffecting the weather".

It is not in the least "dubious" and was actually used by the CIA in the
Vietnam war to mire the North Vietnamese and Cambodians down in mud and
mire. There's no questioned that it worked. There is also no question
that NASA has used cloud seeding to eliminate clouds in order to have
clear weather for space launches.

Yawn, if you cloud seed in an area and time when it s going to rain
naturally, then you can hardly "cloud seeding worked".

Contrails have been blamed for large scale cooling along flight paths
which are growing more and more numerous. These contrails are nothing
more than cumulous clouds. At any moment in the USA there are 3,000
aircraft in the air. And they use the dirtiest of fuel.

And dirty fuel emits particles that water vapour coalesces about. So your
point is?

Of course you can't make blue sky rain. But they could make it rain in places where they wanted the rain to fall when it would normally be falling in
Thailand. Laos and Cambodia would receive the rain so that the
north Vietnamese couldn't travel down the Ho Chi Minh Trail. This
prevented attacks from the back side of the dividing line. This ALL
worked. In fact North Vietnam admitted that they were beaten. But
after Lyndon Johnson pulled American Troops out of South Vietnam he
cut all military aid to the South and that gave the North the
advantage again.


Quite simply, you don't know what you are talking about. Firstly, the
so called "Ho Chi Minh Trail" wasn't a "trail" it was a series of
paths, roads and byways, some with considerable improvement including
camp facilities that allowed the Northerners to transport supplies to
their troops in the south using trucks, bicycles, water buffalos, and
human porters.

The idea that "if it rains that won't be able to use the trail" is one
of the more stupid ideas that the U.S. had during the war. The idea
that all movement stops during the monsoon is ludicrous. It would mean
that nothing moved in most of South East Asia for nearly half of each
year.

And proof? Well, I guess that the fact that the North did supply their
people in the South all year round is proof, isn't it? And, even
General Westmoreland stated that he thought there was "no appreciable
increase" in rain from the project.

As for N. Vietnam admitting that they were beaten? I guess you'll have
to prove that as it appears to be just another one of your pipe
dreams.

I might add that Thailand has since about 1969 has had an official
"cloud seeding" project. The results vary from year to year but
overall the project has not been a resounding success, other than as a
political act to demonstrate the "government's concern" for the
farmers.

Firstly there were no "road improvements" that anyone in the US would call an improvement - muddy car tracks over a dozen miles are what they were.

Secondly you can't "increase" the amounts of rain by seeding but only have it occur in other areas than it would have fallen.

Thirdly the North Vietnamese surrendered at the Paris Peace Treaty and then because the Democrats wouldn't continue to support the South Vietnamese military and continue air support the North Vietnamese simply ignored the Treaty and the Democrats used that as an election point.


Wow! North Viet Nam surrendered? Who knew? BTW, to whom did they surrender?

-- Jay Beattie.


Here we have again another example of what lengths you will go to to attempt to prove me wrong. You really are a Fred.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Peace_Accords



Yes Tom, I did read that and several other reports.

Now show us where it says that the "North Vietnamese surrendered at
the Paris Peace Treaty" as you wrote (above).
In fact it states that:

The document began with the statement that "the United States
and all other countries respect the independence, sovereignty, unity,
and territorial integrity of Vietnam as recognized by the 1954 Geneva
Agreements on Vietnam". The inclusion of this provision was a victory
for the communist side and the Vietcong... that would allow the South
Vietnamese people to "decide themselves the political future of South
Vietnam through genuinely free and democratic general elections under
international supervision."

It might be noted that this is essentially what the 1954 Geneva
Agreement stated... that the U.S. refused to honor.

cheers,

John B.


  #38  
Old January 11th 19, 11:59 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 550
Default More Justice Department Hiding

On Fri, 11 Jan 2019 08:38:00 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 4:36:19 PM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 10 Jan 2019 12:41:08 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Tuesday, January 8, 2019 at 3:35:22 PM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote:
rOn Tue, 8 Jan 2019 10:15:18 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Monday, January 7, 2019 at 11:16:53 AM UTC-8, news18 wrote:
On Mon, 07 Jan 2019 09:06:37 -0800, sltom992 wrote:

On Sunday, January 6, 2019 at 7:04:24 PM UTC-8, news18 wrote:
On Sun, 06 Jan 2019 07:00:36 -0800, sltom992 wrote:

So, no you weren't aware and need a reference but yes you were aware.
I am never surprised by your statements.

Most people who know even a lttle bit about "cloud seeding" will know
that claiming it affected the weather was at best a dubious long shot.
Somewhere around there is a apaper showeing that "rain dances" have a
greater correlation to the claim of "afffecting the weather".

It is not in the least "dubious" and was actually used by the CIA in the
Vietnam war to mire the North Vietnamese and Cambodians down in mud and
mire. There's no questioned that it worked. There is also no question
that NASA has used cloud seeding to eliminate clouds in order to have
clear weather for space launches.

Yawn, if you cloud seed in an area and time when it s going to rain
naturally, then you can hardly "cloud seeding worked".

Contrails have been blamed for large scale cooling along flight paths
which are growing more and more numerous. These contrails are nothing
more than cumulous clouds. At any moment in the USA there are 3,000
aircraft in the air. And they use the dirtiest of fuel.

And dirty fuel emits particles that water vapour coalesces about. So your
point is?

Of course you can't make blue sky rain. But they could make it rain in places where they wanted the rain to fall when it would normally be falling in
Thailand. Laos and Cambodia would receive the rain so that the
north Vietnamese couldn't travel down the Ho Chi Minh Trail. This
prevented attacks from the back side of the dividing line. This ALL
worked. In fact North Vietnam admitted that they were beaten. But
after Lyndon Johnson pulled American Troops out of South Vietnam he
cut all military aid to the South and that gave the North the
advantage again.


Quite simply, you don't know what you are talking about. Firstly, the
so called "Ho Chi Minh Trail" wasn't a "trail" it was a series of
paths, roads and byways, some with considerable improvement including
camp facilities that allowed the Northerners to transport supplies to
their troops in the south using trucks, bicycles, water buffalos, and
human porters.

The idea that "if it rains that won't be able to use the trail" is one
of the more stupid ideas that the U.S. had during the war. The idea
that all movement stops during the monsoon is ludicrous. It would mean
that nothing moved in most of South East Asia for nearly half of each
year.

And proof? Well, I guess that the fact that the North did supply their
people in the South all year round is proof, isn't it? And, even
General Westmoreland stated that he thought there was "no appreciable
increase" in rain from the project.

As for N. Vietnam admitting that they were beaten? I guess you'll have
to prove that as it appears to be just another one of your pipe
dreams.

I might add that Thailand has since about 1969 has had an official
"cloud seeding" project. The results vary from year to year but
overall the project has not been a resounding success, other than as a
political act to demonstrate the "government's concern" for the
farmers.

Firstly there were no "road improvements" that anyone in the US would call an improvement - muddy car tracks over a dozen miles are what they were.


Errr... I hate to be the one to tell you but the so called Ho Chi Minh
trail wasn't in the United States. And, (1) I have seen actual
photographs of portions of the trail, taken by Special Forces troops,
that had interdicted parts of the trail showing the man made
improvements, (2) the U.S. bombed portions of the trail and lo and
behold in a week or so the damage was repaired and (3) by 1974 the
"trail" had become a 2 lane paved highway.


Secondly you can't "increase" the amounts of rain by seeding but only have it occur in other areas than it would have fallen.


Strange as the intent of Operation Popeye (the rain making program
that you have been talking about) was stated to be: " to induce rain
and extend the East Asian Monsoon season in support of U.S. government
efforts related to the War in Southeast Asia".

Unfortunately it wasn't a success and from the minutes of the Senate
hearing of May 19, 1874:
"While this program had an effect on the primitive road conditions in
these areas the results were certainly limited and unverifiable."


Thirdly the North Vietnamese surrendered at the Paris Peace Treaty and then because the Democrats wouldn't continue to support the South Vietnamese military and continue air support the North Vietnamese simply ignored the Treaty and the Democrats used that as an election point.


Where did you get the idea that the N. Vietnamese "surrendered". What
actually effectively happened was that the U.S. withdrew from the war
basically for political reasons and agreed to support the South
logistically.

President Lyndon B. Johnson halted bombing operations over the
northern portion of the North Vietnam (Operation Rolling Thunder), in
order to encourage Hanoi to begin negotiations. Shortly thereafter,
Hanoi agreed to discuss a complete halt of the bombing, and a date was
set for representatives of both parties to meet in Paris, France. The
sides first met on May 10, with the delegations headed by Xuân Thuy,
who would remain the official leader of the North Vietnamese
delegation throughout the process, and U.S. ambassador-at-large W.
Averell Harriman.

For five months, the negotiations stalled as North Vietnam demanded
that all bombing of North Vietnam be stopped, while the U.S. side
demanded that North Vietnam agree to a reciprocal de-escalation in
South Vietnam; it was not until October 31 that Johnson agreed to end
the air strikes and serious negotiations could begin.

"The Paris Agreement Treaty would in effect remove all remaining US
Forces, including air and naval forces in exchange for Hanoi's POWs.
Direct U.S. military intervention was ended, and fighting between the
three remaining powers temporarily stopped for less than a day...

The agreement's provisions were immediately frequently broken with no
response from the United States. Fighting broke out in March 1973, and
North Vietnamese offenses enlarged their control by the end of the
year. Two years later, a massive North Vietnamese offensive conquered
South Vietnam. "

Tom, I keep telling you that "it is better to remain silent and be
thought a fool then to open your mouth and prove it" but you just
don't listen.


cheers,

John B.


Hey dippy - I have flown over it in bombers at 5,000 ft. So shove your "pictures" since I looked at it through open bomb bay doors.


You did? In what bombers? At 5,000 ft? Through open bomb bay doors?

I have this awful feeling that you are telling lies again. So tell us,
is this a factor of your over heated imagination or were you a B-52
crew member? Details please. What positron on the crew and your rank
please.

cheers,

John B.


  #39  
Old January 12th 19, 06:31 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
news18
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 224
Default More Justice Department Hiding

On Fri, 11 Jan 2019 13:06:11 -0800, sltom992 wrote:

On Friday, January 11, 2019 at 11:25:18 AM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, January 11, 2019 at 8:36:14 AM UTC-8,
wrote:
On Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 1:31:26 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 12:41:10 PM UTC-8,
wrote:
On Tuesday, January 8, 2019 at 3:35:22 PM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb
wrote:
rOn Tue, 8 Jan 2019 10:15:18 -0800 (PST),
wrote:


Thirdly the North Vietnamese surrendered at the Paris Peace
Treaty and then because the Democrats wouldn't continue to
support the South Vietnamese military and continue air support
the North Vietnamese simply ignored the Treaty and the Democrats
used that as an election point.

Wow! North Viet Nam surrendered? Who knew? BTW, to whom did they
surrender?

-- Jay Beattie.

Here we have again another example of what lengths you will go to to
attempt to prove me wrong. You really are a Fred.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Peace_Accords

I read it. North Viet Nam did not surrender.

-- Jay Beattie.


No, the just agreed to return the POW's and cease waging war until they
realized that the Democrats had no intentions of continuing air support
and supplying arms and ammunition to the South Vietnamese Army.


So, effectively, the USA surrendered.

  #40  
Old January 12th 19, 01:17 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,896
Default More Justice Department Hiding

On Saturday, January 12, 2019 at 5:31:24 AM UTC, news18 wrote:

So, effectively, the USA surrendered [in Vietnam].


Oh, it's worse than that. In The Devil's Pleasure Palace, Michael Walsh made the case that the US wanted to lose that war. Other historians and philosophers have made the point that stopping the 20th century's wars, and into this century, too soon just guaranteed that one unfinished war would be the flash-point for the next one. Iraq and Afghanistan are the recent examples commonly cited. Paul Johnson wrote of the deplorable effects of Americans' small-town morality when real politik was required. Walsh fixes the blame for this defeatist inability to conduct wars to their necessary conclusion on the Frankfurt School and its Critical Theory. I've been calling them commiepinkofellowtravellers since the 1960's and their theory the stinking detritus of resentful Germans who didn't know how to behave as guests in someone else's house. The little Antifa fascists are their children, and the modern Democratic Party is driven by Critical Theory's foolish fallacies. Their whole thing is cultural Marxism and, like other sorts of Marxism, it is a suicide cult in which limp-dick defeatism pigeonholes nicely into the their huge cupboard full of omnidirectional hate for Western civilisation. You're a representative example of what Critical Theory has done to two generations now.

Andre Jute
Resistant
 




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