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Decline in bicycling?



 
 
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  #1  
Old January 27th 20, 04:22 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 9,277
Default Decline in bicycling?

Decline in bicycling? Gosh, how can that be, with the constant
construction of new "safe" facilities? (Actually, as a facility skeptic,
I think I can answer that question.)

https://patch.com/florida/southtampa...line-bicycling

I'm sure things can be very difficult for an independent local shop. I
wonder about Andrew's experience with such pressures.

--
- Frank Krygowski
Ads
  #2  
Old January 27th 20, 04:44 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
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Posts: 12,124
Default Decline in bicycling?

On 1/27/2020 10:22 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Decline in bicycling? Gosh, how can that be, with the
constant construction of new "safe" facilities? (Actually,
as a facility skeptic, I think I can answer that question.)

https://patch.com/florida/southtampa...line-bicycling


I'm sure things can be very difficult for an independent
local shop. I wonder about Andrew's experience with such
pressures.


Not news. The past few years have been absolutely brutal to
my industry.

That said, individual dealers are each a subset of 'the
bicycle business' and have their own individual strengths,
advantages, challenges and burdens.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #3  
Old January 27th 20, 05:00 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 5,088
Default Decline in bicycling?

On Monday, January 27, 2020 at 8:22:56 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Decline in bicycling? Gosh, how can that be, with the constant
construction of new "safe" facilities? (Actually, as a facility skeptic,
I think I can answer that question.)


The article ties the drop in commuter ridership to the fear of traffic and the highest bicycle death rate in the nation. You are now treading in that area between perceived danger and actual danger. It may actually suck to ride on surface streets to commute to work in Tampa as opposed to riding on one of the MUPs or linear park trails, which typically don't get you where you need to go as a commuter.

The more interesting question is why a drop if the roads were equally dangerous in 2017. We had a drop in PDX, but nothing has changed -- except maybe car traffic has gotten worse. What we need is a survey to find out why people who rode in 2017 aren't riding in 2019. It could be reasons totally unrelated to road conditions, e.g. working from home.

-- Jay Beattie.
  #4  
Old January 27th 20, 07:01 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
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Posts: 5,023
Default Decline in bicycling?

On Monday, 27 January 2020 12:00:41 UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, January 27, 2020 at 8:22:56 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Decline in bicycling? Gosh, how can that be, with the constant
construction of new "safe" facilities? (Actually, as a facility skeptic,
I think I can answer that question.)


The article ties the drop in commuter ridership to the fear of traffic and the highest bicycle death rate in the nation. You are now treading in that area between perceived danger and actual danger. It may actually suck to ride on surface streets to commute to work in Tampa as opposed to riding on one of the MUPs or linear park trails, which typically don't get you where you need to go as a commuter.

The more interesting question is why a drop if the roads were equally dangerous in 2017. We had a drop in PDX, but nothing has changed -- except maybe car traffic has gotten worse. What we need is a survey to find out why people who rode in 2017 aren't riding in 2019. It could be reasons totally unrelated to road conditions, e.g. working from home.

-- Jay Beattie.


Perhaps in Florida it's because of drivers who plow into a group of 15+ bicyclist of which 2 die of injuries; and the driver doesn't even get charged with reckless driving although she was 10+ MPH over the speed limit and was not looking at the road in front of her at the time she hit them?

It's talked about in t his thread.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!to...ch/5abS9erOsto

I think a big part of many giving up bicycling on roads is the perceived dangers posed by distracted drivers and the extremely lenient sentences those drivers get if they hit or hit and kill a bicyclist. Distracted driving seems to be increasing yearly and the penalties for it if someone is hit are ridiculously light.

Cheers
  #5  
Old January 27th 20, 07:40 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Ryan Kavanagh
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1
Default Decline in bicycling?

On Mon, Jan 27 2020, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
Distracted driving seems to be increasing yearly and the penalties for
it if someone is hit are ridiculously light.


I'm a fan of the distracted driving laws in Ontario and wish they were
more widespread. I frequently see people texting and driving here in PA.
In Ontario the first conviction for distracted driving is a $1k fine and
a 3-day suspension, the second is $2k and a 7-day suspension, and third
is $3k and a 30-day suspension.

https://www.ontario.ca/page/distracted-driving

--
|)|/ Ryan Kavanagh | GPG: 4E46 9519 ED67 7734 268F
|\|\ https://rak.ac | BD95 8F7B F8FC 4A11 C97A
  #6  
Old January 27th 20, 08:06 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 9,277
Default Decline in bicycling?

On 1/27/2020 2:01 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, 27 January 2020 12:00:41 UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, January 27, 2020 at 8:22:56 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Decline in bicycling? Gosh, how can that be, with the constant
construction of new "safe" facilities? (Actually, as a facility skeptic,
I think I can answer that question.)


The article ties the drop in commuter ridership to the fear of traffic and the highest bicycle death rate in the nation. You are now treading in that area between perceived danger and actual danger. It may actually suck to ride on surface streets to commute to work in Tampa as opposed to riding on one of the MUPs or linear park trails, which typically don't get you where you need to go as a commuter.

The more interesting question is why a drop if the roads were equally dangerous in 2017. We had a drop in PDX, but nothing has changed -- except maybe car traffic has gotten worse. What we need is a survey to find out why people who rode in 2017 aren't riding in 2019. It could be reasons totally unrelated to road conditions, e.g. working from home.

-- Jay Beattie.


Perhaps in Florida it's because of drivers who plow into a group of 15+ bicyclist of which 2 die of injuries; and the driver doesn't even get charged with reckless driving although she was 10+ MPH over the speed limit and was not looking at the road in front of her at the time she hit them?

It's talked about in t his thread.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!to...ch/5abS9erOsto

I think a big part of many giving up bicycling on roads is the perceived dangers posed by distracted drivers and the extremely lenient sentences those drivers get if they hit or hit and kill a bicyclist. Distracted driving seems to be increasing yearly and the penalties for it if someone is hit are ridiculously light.


I suspect a reason for drops in cycling is perceived dangers, but I
don't think it's specifically connected with light sentences for
offending motorists. I say that because in the U.S. (and I suppose in
Canada) there never was a time when motorists were adequately punished
for their offenses.

I think a big change has been the never-ending push for "Safe!" separate
facilities, with the unavoidable implication that ordinary streets
cannot possibly be "safe." My understanding is that the big bike
companies - especially Trek, IIRC - are strongly behind this facility
push. If so, it's a classic case of shooting oneself in the foot. It
would be much more sensible to put out publicity proving that bicycling
on most ordinary roads is actually quite safe, and very beneficial. It
can also be very useful.

I've noticed a change in our bike club. ISMT a high percentage of people
who have joined in the past five years strongly prefer to ride on
trails. They'll drive 50 miles to some distant trail, off load bikes to
ride back and forth on the trail, and consider it a big adventure.

I'd consider it a long drive followed by a boring ride.


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #7  
Old January 27th 20, 08:52 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12,124
Default Decline in bicycling?

On 1/27/2020 1:01 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, 27 January 2020 12:00:41 UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, January 27, 2020 at 8:22:56 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Decline in bicycling? Gosh, how can that be, with the constant
construction of new "safe" facilities? (Actually, as a facility skeptic,
I think I can answer that question.)


The article ties the drop in commuter ridership to the fear of traffic and the highest bicycle death rate in the nation. You are now treading in that area between perceived danger and actual danger. It may actually suck to ride on surface streets to commute to work in Tampa as opposed to riding on one of the MUPs or linear park trails, which typically don't get you where you need to go as a commuter.

The more interesting question is why a drop if the roads were equally dangerous in 2017. We had a drop in PDX, but nothing has changed -- except maybe car traffic has gotten worse. What we need is a survey to find out why people who rode in 2017 aren't riding in 2019. It could be reasons totally unrelated to road conditions, e.g. working from home.

-- Jay Beattie.


Perhaps in Florida it's because of drivers who plow into a group of 15+ bicyclist of which 2 die of injuries; and the driver doesn't even get charged with reckless driving although she was 10+ MPH over the speed limit and was not looking at the road in front of her at the time she hit them?

It's talked about in t his thread.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!to...ch/5abS9erOsto

I think a big part of many giving up bicycling on roads is the perceived dangers posed by distracted drivers and the extremely lenient sentences those drivers get if they hit or hit and kill a bicyclist. Distracted driving seems to be increasing yearly and the penalties for it if someone is hit are ridiculously light.


One might hold that USA is too lenient for inattentive
automobile pilots (and I'd agree). Then there's CH, a
different culture entirely!

https://www.ticinonews.ch/svizzera/4...ni-di-prigione

German tourist cycling in Switzerland dumps his bike,
breaking a rib. Swiss police track him down and fine him 150
Swiss Francs for 'not being in control of vehicle' on public
roads. He won't pay and takes the two days in jail instead.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #8  
Old January 27th 20, 10:24 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,088
Default Decline in bicycling?

On Monday, January 27, 2020 at 12:06:18 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/27/2020 2:01 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, 27 January 2020 12:00:41 UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, January 27, 2020 at 8:22:56 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Decline in bicycling? Gosh, how can that be, with the constant
construction of new "safe" facilities? (Actually, as a facility skeptic,
I think I can answer that question.)


The article ties the drop in commuter ridership to the fear of traffic and the highest bicycle death rate in the nation. You are now treading in that area between perceived danger and actual danger. It may actually suck to ride on surface streets to commute to work in Tampa as opposed to riding on one of the MUPs or linear park trails, which typically don't get you where you need to go as a commuter.

The more interesting question is why a drop if the roads were equally dangerous in 2017. We had a drop in PDX, but nothing has changed -- except maybe car traffic has gotten worse. What we need is a survey to find out why people who rode in 2017 aren't riding in 2019. It could be reasons totally unrelated to road conditions, e.g. working from home.

-- Jay Beattie.


Perhaps in Florida it's because of drivers who plow into a group of 15+ bicyclist of which 2 die of injuries; and the driver doesn't even get charged with reckless driving although she was 10+ MPH over the speed limit and was not looking at the road in front of her at the time she hit them?

It's talked about in t his thread.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!to...ch/5abS9erOsto

I think a big part of many giving up bicycling on roads is the perceived dangers posed by distracted drivers and the extremely lenient sentences those drivers get if they hit or hit and kill a bicyclist. Distracted driving seems to be increasing yearly and the penalties for it if someone is hit are ridiculously light.


I suspect a reason for drops in cycling is perceived dangers, but I
don't think it's specifically connected with light sentences for
offending motorists. I say that because in the U.S. (and I suppose in
Canada) there never was a time when motorists were adequately punished
for their offenses.

I think a big change has been the never-ending push for "Safe!" separate
facilities, with the unavoidable implication that ordinary streets
cannot possibly be "safe." My understanding is that the big bike
companies - especially Trek, IIRC - are strongly behind this facility
push. If so, it's a classic case of shooting oneself in the foot. It
would be much more sensible to put out publicity proving that bicycling
on most ordinary roads is actually quite safe, and very beneficial. It
can also be very useful.

I've noticed a change in our bike club. ISMT a high percentage of people
who have joined in the past five years strongly prefer to ride on
trails. They'll drive 50 miles to some distant trail, off load bikes to
ride back and forth on the trail, and consider it a big adventure.

I'd consider it a long drive followed by a boring ride.


What kind of a trail? A trail-trail or a MUP?

A lot of people are sick of battling car traffic and are heading toward gravel or off-road because it is more pleasant. It's not even a safety thing -- it's quality of life.

And a lot of people around here will drive 40 miles to trail -- but it is real trail. https://ep1.pinkbike.org/p4pb9879366/p4pb9879366.jpg Or gravel in basically the same area: https://ridewithgps.com/ambassador_r...ney-to-bennett

We do have some pretty MUPs in the middle of nowhere-ish, so people may drive out to those. Rain ride! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6CtssH35Mg There are, however, better gravel routes near the Banks Vernonia trail, e.g. http://www.omtm.cc/buxton-bacona-bonanza If I drive, I'm going there and not a MUP.

-- Jay Beattie.

  #9  
Old January 27th 20, 11:42 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 9,277
Default Decline in bicycling?

On 1/27/2020 5:24 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, January 27, 2020 at 12:06:18 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:

I suspect a reason for drops in cycling is perceived dangers, but I
don't think it's specifically connected with light sentences for
offending motorists. I say that because in the U.S. (and I suppose in
Canada) there never was a time when motorists were adequately punished
for their offenses.

I think a big change has been the never-ending push for "Safe!" separate
facilities, with the unavoidable implication that ordinary streets
cannot possibly be "safe." My understanding is that the big bike
companies - especially Trek, IIRC - are strongly behind this facility
push. If so, it's a classic case of shooting oneself in the foot. It
would be much more sensible to put out publicity proving that bicycling
on most ordinary roads is actually quite safe, and very beneficial. It
can also be very useful.

I've noticed a change in our bike club. ISMT a high percentage of people
who have joined in the past five years strongly prefer to ride on
trails. They'll drive 50 miles to some distant trail, off load bikes to
ride back and forth on the trail, and consider it a big adventure.

I'd consider it a long drive followed by a boring ride.


What kind of a trail? A trail-trail or a MUP?


I should have said MUP. In our area in the past 5 - 10 years, the
mountain bikers have sort of forked off into their own club. There are
some members in common (I was one, for a while) but now those are very few.

A lot of people are sick of battling car traffic and are heading toward gravel or off-road because it is more pleasant. It's not even a safety thing -- it's quality of life.


I've absolutely come across people who say they ride only mountain bike
trails because the roads are too dangerous. I don't know how common that
motivation is, but it does exist.

Keep in mind that this area is unlike anything I've encountered out
west, including the Portland - Beaverton - Hillsville area. Due to early
farm-based settlement, we're surrounded by a high density network of
ex-farm roads. Terrain (at least, south and east) prevents a true grid
(and adds interest), but it's a tangle that approximates a grid with
less than a mile between intersections.

Yes, some of those old roads are now nasty because they sprouted huge
McMansion developments, or serve as rush hour cut-throughs for people
avoiding traffic and stop lights. But five miles away from anywhere, we
can easily find roads with daily traffic counts below 1000, and not a
few below 500.

One of our weekly club rides (on a mid-morning weekday, so almost
entirely retirees) leaves a restaurant/bar and covers 25 to 30 miles of
country roads chosen by the momentary whim of the ride leader. At each
intersection, he makes a snap decision. He seldom duplicates his route,
because there are countless choices.

And a lot of people around here will drive 40 miles to trail -- but it is real trail.


A few (very few) times I've driven a distance to explore some MUP I
heard about, or to ride one with a newbie who needs near-total flat
terrain. But such a shame to pass up all the other pleasant roads!

About gravel: A few people I know bought "gravel bikes" recently. I
suggested they'd be great for riding through Amish country maybe 40
miles north of here, where the many gravel roads have almost no traffic
but buggies. I might enjoy that with (say) 32mm tires on my touring
bike. But I really am reluctant to drive very far to do a ride.


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #10  
Old January 28th 20, 12:16 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,041
Default Decline in bicycling?

On Monday, January 27, 2020 at 8:52:33 PM UTC, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/27/2020 1:01 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, 27 January 2020 12:00:41 UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, January 27, 2020 at 8:22:56 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Decline in bicycling? Gosh, how can that be, with the constant
construction of new "safe" facilities? (Actually, as a facility skeptic,
I think I can answer that question.)


The article ties the drop in commuter ridership to the fear of traffic and the highest bicycle death rate in the nation. You are now treading in that area between perceived danger and actual danger. It may actually suck to ride on surface streets to commute to work in Tampa as opposed to riding on one of the MUPs or linear park trails, which typically don't get you where you need to go as a commuter.

The more interesting question is why a drop if the roads were equally dangerous in 2017. We had a drop in PDX, but nothing has changed -- except maybe car traffic has gotten worse. What we need is a survey to find out why people who rode in 2017 aren't riding in 2019. It could be reasons totally unrelated to road conditions, e.g. working from home.

-- Jay Beattie.


Perhaps in Florida it's because of drivers who plow into a group of 15+ bicyclist of which 2 die of injuries; and the driver doesn't even get charged with reckless driving although she was 10+ MPH over the speed limit and was not looking at the road in front of her at the time she hit them?

It's talked about in t his thread.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!to...ch/5abS9erOsto

I think a big part of many giving up bicycling on roads is the perceived dangers posed by distracted drivers and the extremely lenient sentences those drivers get if they hit or hit and kill a bicyclist. Distracted driving seems to be increasing yearly and the penalties for it if someone is hit are ridiculously light.


One might hold that USA is too lenient for inattentive
automobile pilots (and I'd agree). Then there's CH, a
different culture entirely!

https://www.ticinonews.ch/svizzera/4...ni-di-prigione

German tourist cycling in Switzerland dumps his bike,
breaking a rib. Swiss police track him down and fine him 150
Swiss Francs for 'not being in control of vehicle' on public
roads. He won't pay and takes the two days in jail instead.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


The Fremdenpolizei are a law onto their own. The keep special rat-infested cells for illegal aliens. If you think I'm joking, ask the banker who hides your money in a numbered Swiss account. Seems to me that the US could do with an infusion of the Fremdenpolizei spirit.

Andre Jute
How can you have a nation if it doesn't have borders?
 




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