How Do They Stay in Business?

On Apr 29, 7:38*am, "Jon" wrote:


Many LBS owners/employees are cycling enthusiast, racers,
MTB'ers, used-to-be's, wanna-be's, club riders, etc... *They
stock and sell best what they know and love. *Few of them
know and love recumbents. *It's a tough market for recumbents
to increase availability, from many perspectives.


Agreed. So perhaps Volae has the right idea. Sell directly to the
buyer with a return policy that limits the buyer's risk.

"Jon" wrote in message
...
[...]
But recumbents are a market niche, and not a fad. There's
money, if not millionaires to be made selling them.

I strongly suspect that Rolf Garthus of Hostel Shoppe is a millionaire. He
carries a large line of different recumbents and sells many of them mail
order. He produces a catalog every year which is the best recumbent catalog
I have ever come across. Here is his website:

http://www.hostelshoppe.com/

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

"Tom Sherman" wrote in message
...
[...]
The experience of the past decade indicates that a LBS should either be a
recumbent specialist with a wide range of product or stick to uprights.
Selling one line of recumbents with one or two bikes on display will NOT
be successful (another reason Trek and Cannondale failed in most cases).
The one Trek dealer [1] successful at selling R200's was Wheel & Sprocket,
which was already a recumbent specialist dealer at their Hales Corners
location.

I certainly do agree with the above scenario by Tom Sherman. Bike shops that
only carry a few recumbents as a side line are quite messed up and do not
know how to sell them or set them up whereas a shop that sells recumbents
exclusively will know the finer points of recumbents. It doesn't matter
where I buy a recumbent because I am extremely knowledgeable, but for the
first time buyer it might be a good idea to only buy from a recumbent bike
shop.
[...]

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

"stratrider" wrote
On Apr 29, 7:38 am, "Jon" wrote:
owners/employees [...] Few of them
know and love recumbents. It's a tough market for recumbents
to increase availability, from many perspectives.

Agreed. So perhaps Volae has the right idea. Sell directly to the
buyer with a return policy that limits the buyer's risk.

A friend reported that someone he knew had recently started
working at a local bike shop. He had asked that person
if the shop carried any recumbents and got the response that
the bike shop owner "hates recumbents".

I have no non-hearsay confirmation of this, but I've tried
constructing a rational case for a LBS owner "hating
recumbents". Not being interested in selling them, I can
understand. Having reasons why upright bikes are "better"
for some purpose, I can understand. Even thinking that
recumbents are "not bicycles" from a UCI perspective...
But, hating them? That suggests something else.

It seems unlikely that he would seem recumbents as
taking market share. It's possible, perhaps that he
or someone he knows was injured on a recumbent,--
blew out their knees with bad technique. Or perhaps
he thinks recumbents are inherently less visible or
unsafe in operation... If I'm in the shop again, maybe
I'll play dumb and ask about recumbents. %^)

At a more local local bike shop I have experienced
first hand dismissive disinterest, if not disdain for
recumbents. This was a Trek dealer and when the
R200 was in production I once asked the owner
if he had seen one or planned to get one for test
rides. He just said "we don't get much call for those"...
Hmmm, I wonder why? You don't have any to show
and most people don't know they exist... When
someone does ask about them, you don't even
engage them in conversation about them!

I've sometimes thought that a "travelling" recumbent
show might be an effective way to market them. If
there were a way to tie this in with LBS, manufacturers
could bring in their whole product line for a weekend
event and let the LBS take the orders. Really, all
it would take would be a truck or a trailer and a
driver/rep...

I'd love to be able to try out a RANS Seavo. But
at $5000+ I doubt any of the LBS and even not-so-L
BS will have one on the showroom floor.

Jon

But recumbents are a market niche, and not a fad. *There's
money, if not millionaires to be made selling them.

I strongly suspect that Rolf Garthus of Hostel Shoppe is a millionaire. He
carries a large line of different recumbents and sells many of them mail
order. He produces a catalog every year which is the best recumbent catalog
I have ever come across. Here is his website:

http://www.hostelshoppe.com/

I would suspect that his wife has a good job or comes from money (no
dis-respect meant), of course I could be wrong. There are a few
successful recumbent retailers in the country but they can be counted
on one hand. Even after a huge amount of effort by a lot of people
myself included.
On the demise of RCN.
I'm afraid that just as I was partially responsible for the creation
of RCN I'm partially responsible for it's demise. When Bob was
describing the financial condition of the magazine I advised him to
shut it down and cut his losses. Although it comes under the heading
of wisdom through hindsight, I'm very familiar with the problems
associated with a small business as I was also foolish enough to get
into the bike business and ended up basically penniless. (If it wasn't
for my wife I'd probably be living under a bridge someplace.) IMO
recumbents should have been a mainstream product many years ago. I'm
sure some of you have read my rants about the bike industry before,
but for those that haven't I'll repeat what I believe is the major
reason for the almost total lack of acceptance of recumbents by the
bike industry, (i.e. bike shops).
Industry statistics haven't changed much over the last few years.
94.5% of riders ride for recreation and fitness, 5.2 % for
transportation and .3% race their bikes. It's the .3% who are the
problem. All of them are testosterone poisoned young guys and all of
them work in bike shops. They all believe, as one said to me, "you
have to be willing to endure pain and suffering to be a real
cyclist!". When you walk through the door of the local bike shop if
you're not under 40 and 5% body fat you'll be only grudgingly accepted
as a possible customer. If you should ask about recumbents you might
cause the Dude to become catatonic. A slight exaggeration perhaps, but
I've had numerous encounters with these idiots and it's not far off
base. It's been almost thirty years since I got involved in the bike
business and as far as I can see there has been little change in the
attitudes of bike shop employees and I doubt that there ever will be.

Anyway, I'd like to apologize to Bob for encouraging him to get
involved in the business those many years ago.

Dick Ryan

"ryancycles" wrote in message
...

But recumbents are a market niche, and not a fad. There's
money, if not millionaires to be made selling them.

I strongly suspect that Rolf Garthus of Hostel Shoppe is a millionaire. He
carries a large line of different recumbents and sells many of them mail
order. He produces a catalog every year which is the best recumbent
catalog
I have ever come across. Here is his website:

http://www.hostelshoppe.com/

I would suspect that his wife has a good job or comes from money (no
dis-respect meant), of course I could be wrong. There are a few
successful recumbent retailers in the country but they can be counted
on one hand. Even after a huge amount of effort by a lot of people
myself included.
On the demise of RCN.
I'm afraid that just as I was partially responsible for the creation
of RCN I'm partially responsible for it's demise. When Bob was
describing the financial condition of the magazine I advised him to
shut it down and cut his losses. Although it comes under the heading
of wisdom through hindsight, I'm very familiar with the problems
associated with a small business as I was also foolish enough to get
into the bike business and ended up basically penniless. (If it wasn't
for my wife I'd probably be living under a bridge someplace.) IMO
recumbents should have been a mainstream product many years ago. I'm
sure some of you have read my rants about the bike industry before,
but for those that haven't I'll repeat what I believe is the major
reason for the almost total lack of acceptance of recumbents by the
bike industry, (i.e. bike shops).
Industry statistics haven't changed much over the last few years.
94.5% of riders ride for recreation and fitness, 5.2 % for
transportation and .3% race their bikes. It's the .3% who are the
problem. All of them are testosterone poisoned young guys and all of
them work in bike shops. They all believe, as one said to me, "you
have to be willing to endure pain and suffering to be a real
cyclist!". When you walk through the door of the local bike shop if
you're not under 40 and 5% body fat you'll be only grudgingly accepted
as a possible customer. If you should ask about recumbents you might
cause the Dude to become catatonic. A slight exaggeration perhaps, but
I've had numerous encounters with these idiots and it's not far off
base. It's been almost thirty years since I got involved in the bike
business and as far as I can see there has been little change in the
attitudes of bike shop employees and I doubt that there ever will be.

Anyway, I'd like to apologize to Bob for encouraging him to get
involved in the business those many years ago.

Dick Ryan

I think Bob Bryant had a good run with his recumbent newsletter although he
was never abel to turn it into a magazine. I susbscribed rigth from teh
outset and I well remember your invovlment in it too, somethign abotu a
recumbent cub I believe.

RCN was always rather expensive, but I wanted to suprprot teh recumbent
community and I must admit I geto alot of value otu fo that publication.
Eveytitn I kwn abotu recumbnets I learned from Bob Bryant and RCN. This
newsgroup, ARBR, is toaotly worthless and alwya has been and is tno agood
palce to leanr anythgin worth knwoign abotu recumbents.

I think Jon Meinecke has ti abotu right. REcumbents are nto a fad, but thery
are a nich market, very samll and it wil stay tha tway forever. YOu almso
have to flal in lveo with recumbents befreo you wil spend teh big bucks.
Sometiem kids fall in lvoe with bikes, but most adlts never do. Tehr fall
inlveo with cars instead.

You may be rigth abotu teh situatio with the biek shops, but I never pay any
attentio tosale peopell. I figure thay ar eall idiots anyway. I alway do my
own reserach adn when I get to a biek shop, I knwo exactly waht I want
withotu talkign to any sales ppolpel other thatn to dicker abotu price.

Regrads,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

"ryancycles" wrote in message
...

[Ignore previous posting which was sent by mistake and was just a rough
copy.]

But recumbents are a market niche, and not a fad. There's
money, if not millionaires to be made selling them.

I strongly suspect that Rolf Garthus of Hostel Shoppe is a millionaire. He
carries a large line of different recumbents and sells many of them mail
order. He produces a catalog every year which is the best recumbent
catalog
I have ever come across. Here is his website:

http://www.hostelshoppe.com/

I would suspect that his wife has a good job or comes from money (no
dis-respect meant), of course I could be wrong. There are a few
successful recumbent retailers in the country but they can be counted
on one hand. Even after a huge amount of effort by a lot of people
myself included.
On the demise of RCN.
I'm afraid that just as I was partially responsible for the creation
of RCN I'm partially responsible for it's demise. When Bob was
describing the financial condition of the magazine I advised him to
shut it down and cut his losses. Although it comes under the heading
of wisdom through hindsight, I'm very familiar with the problems
associated with a small business as I was also foolish enough to get
into the bike business and ended up basically penniless. (If it wasn't
for my wife I'd probably be living under a bridge someplace.) IMO
recumbents should have been a mainstream product many years ago. I'm
sure some of you have read my rants about the bike industry before,
but for those that haven't I'll repeat what I believe is the major
reason for the almost total lack of acceptance of recumbents by the
bike industry, (i.e. bike shops).
Industry statistics haven't changed much over the last few years.
94.5% of riders ride for recreation and fitness, 5.2 % for
transportation and .3% race their bikes. It's the .3% who are the
problem. All of them are testosterone poisoned young guys and all of
them work in bike shops. They all believe, as one said to me, "you
have to be willing to endure pain and suffering to be a real
cyclist!". When you walk through the door of the local bike shop if
you're not under 40 and 5% body fat you'll be only grudgingly accepted
as a possible customer. If you should ask about recumbents you might
cause the Dude to become catatonic. A slight exaggeration perhaps, but
I've had numerous encounters with these idiots and it's not far off
base. It's been almost thirty years since I got involved in the bike
business and as far as I can see there has been little change in the
attitudes of bike shop employees and I doubt that there ever will be.

Anyway, I'd like to apologize to Bob for encouraging him to get
involved in the business those many years ago.

Dick Ryan

I think Bob Bryant had a good run with his recumbent newsletter although he
was never able to turn it into a magazine. I subscribed right from the
outset and I well remember your involvement in it too, something about a
recumbent cub I believe.

RCN was always rather expensive, but I wanted to support the recumbent
community and I must admit I got a lot of value out of that publication.
Eveything I know about recumbents I learned from Bob Bryant and RCN. This
newsgroup, ARBR, is totally worthless and always has been and is not a good
place to learn anything worth knowing about recumbents.

I think Jon Meinecke has it about right. Recumbents are not a fad, but they
are a niche market, very small and it will stay that way forever. You almost
have to fall in love with recumbents before you will spend the big bucks.
Sometimes kids fall in love with bikes, but most adults never do. They fall
in love with cars instead.

You may be right about the situation with the bike shops, but I never pay
any
attention to sales people. I figure they are all idiots anyway. I always do
my
own research and when I get to a bike shop, I know exactly what I want
without talking to any sales people other than to dicker about the price.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

"ryancycles" wrote

Industry statistics haven't changed much over the last few years.
94.5% of riders ride for recreation and fitness, 5.2 % for
transportation and .3% race their bikes.

Yes, and some percentage ot the recreational and fitness riders
have bought the "club required" equipment. Gotta keep up
with the Jones... (There's a joke in there.)

It's the .3% who are the problem. All of them are testosterone
poisoned young guys and all of them work in bike shops.
They all believe, as one said to me, "you have to be willing
to endure pain and suffering to be a real cyclist!".

Yes. And there's also the "bad fit" exclusion for anyone
who doesn't find an upright bike comfortable. Either
the bike isn't properly fitted or the rider isn't properly fit!
Blame the victim! %^)

But I suspect the largest income from bike sales must
come from the "middle ground". In the large "regional"
bike shop, there are whole sections of diamond frame
bikes that couldn't possibly make a racer or technical
MTB'er happy.

In the case of the smaller LBS Trek dealer who wasn't
interested in the R200, he didn't appear only interested in
pushing fast bikes. The bread and butter of his shop appears
to be kid's bikes, hybrids and entry-level MTBs. In a shop
with maybe 40 bikes on display, he has 1 or 2 "higher end"
road bikes.

Jon

"Jon" wrote in message
...
[...]
But I suspect the largest income from bike sales must
come from the "middle ground". In the large "regional"
bike shop, there are whole sections of diamond frame
bikes that couldn't possibly make a racer or technical
MTB'er happy.

In the case of the smaller LBS Trek dealer who wasn't
interested in the R200, he didn't appear only interested in
pushing fast bikes. The bread and butter of his shop appears
to be kid's bikes, hybrids and entry-level MTBs. In a shop
with maybe 40 bikes on display, he has 1 or 2 "higher end"
road bikes.

There is only one bike shop in Sioux Falls that now carries recumbents
(Bacchetta and Catrike). The other bike shops have all abandoned them. The
one other thing I have noticed recently is that the Sioux Falls bike shops
are beginning to carry the more expensive road bikes once again, so it may
be that the road bike is starting to make a comeback. One thing is for sure,
recumbents are less popular now then they have ever been.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

ryancycles aka Dick Ryan wrote:
But recumbents are a market niche, and not a fad. There's
money, if not millionaires to be made selling them.
I strongly suspect that Rolf Garthus of Hostel Shoppe is a millionaire. He
carries a large line of different recumbents and sells many of them mail
order. He produces a catalog every year which is the best recumbent catalog
I have ever come across. Here is his website:

http://www.hostelshoppe.com/

I would suspect that his wife has a good job or comes from money (no
dis-respect meant), of course I could be wrong. There are a few
successful recumbent retailers in the country but they can be counted
on one hand. Even after a huge amount of effort by a lot of people
myself included.

I suspect some of the bigger recumbent specialist dealers make a lower
middle class income.

Around here, Wheel & Sprocket has billboard and radio advertisements,
but none of those mention recumbents. I imagine that Wheel & Sprocket
also sells a magnitude more uprights than recumbents.

On the demise of RCN.
I'm afraid that just as I was partially responsible for the creation
of RCN I'm partially responsible for it's demise. When Bob was
describing the financial condition of the magazine I advised him to
shut it down and cut his losses. Although it comes under the heading
of wisdom through hindsight, I'm very familiar with the problems
associated with a small business as I was also foolish enough to get
into the bike business and ended up basically penniless. (If it wasn't
for my wife I'd probably be living under a bridge someplace.) IMO
recumbents should have been a mainstream product many years ago. I'm
sure some of you have read my rants about the bike industry before,
but for those that haven't I'll repeat what I believe is the major
reason for the almost total lack of acceptance of recumbents by the
bike industry, (i.e. bike shops).

Better to close up while one can still pay their debts, than the other
way around.

Industry statistics haven't changed much over the last few years.
94.5% of riders ride for recreation and fitness, 5.2 % for
transportation and .3% race their bikes. It's the .3% who are the
problem. All of them are testosterone poisoned young guys and all of
them work in bike shops. They all believe, as one said to me, "you
have to be willing to endure pain and suffering to be a real
cyclist!". When you walk through the door of the local bike shop if
you're not under 40 and 5% body fat you'll be only grudgingly accepted
as a possible customer. If you should ask about recumbents you might
cause the Dude to become catatonic. A slight exaggeration perhaps, but
I've had numerous encounters with these idiots and it's not far off
base. It's been almost thirty years since I got involved in the bike
business and as far as I can see there has been little change in the
attitudes of bike shop employees and I doubt that there ever will be.

This sounds like most bike shops. At many shops that sell mostly
uprights, one has to talk to the "recumbent guy", as all the other
employees will have nothing to do with them.

Anyway, I'd like to apologize to Bob for encouraging him to get
involved in the business those many years ago.

Did Bob Bryant enjoy his decade and a half in the magazine business?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful