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Chain idler efficiency - roller vs. toothed



 
 
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  #1  
Old April 27th 08, 12:51 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Tom Sherman[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,890
Default Chain idler efficiency - roller vs. toothed

TandemFan wrote:

[cross-posted to ARBR for Perry Butler's amusement]

We have a R[ANS] Screamer tandem and there are a few idler rollers for
the chain. An outfit sells toothed idlers for about $250:
http://www.terracycle.com/Merchant2/...Code=IdlersALL

They have a long blurb on why they are better:

http://www.terracycle.com/Merchant2/...d e=IdlersALL

What's the scoop? Does it make any difference at all, or are we going
to go faster?

Someone needs to tell Pat Franz that it is "RANS" and not "Rans".

While the manufacturers in question are trying to meet a price point for
their bicycles, they are not going to be putting junk chain idlers on
their bicycles [1]. Therefore, while there is room for improvement, the
gains will likely be small as drive-train friction is a small component
of total non-conservative losses, even on a recumbent with a complicated
chain-line.

If you want to make a RANS Screamer a lot faster than stock, put a front
fairing (Zzipper or Mueller) and a bodysock on the bike.

[1] Unlike some defunct manufacturers of the past.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
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  #2  
Old April 27th 08, 05:43 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Jon Bendtsen
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 168
Default Chain idler efficiency - roller vs. toothed

Tom Sherman wrote:
TandemFan wrote:

[cross-posted to ARBR for Perry Butler's amusement]

We have a R[ANS] Screamer tandem and there are a few idler rollers for
the chain. An outfit sells toothed idlers for about $250:
http://www.terracycle.com/Merchant2/...Code=IdlersALL


They have a long blurb on why they are better:

http://www.terracycle.com/Merchant2/...d e=IdlersALL


What's the scoop? Does it make any difference at all, or are we going
to go faster?

Someone needs to tell Pat Franz that it is "RANS" and not "Rans".

While the manufacturers in question are trying to meet a price point for
their bicycles, they are not going to be putting junk chain idlers on
their bicycles [1]. Therefore, while there is room for improvement, the
gains will likely be small as drive-train friction is a small component
of total non-conservative losses, even on a recumbent with a complicated
chain-line.


Why not avoid idlers and recumbents with complicated chain-lines?

It might not (yet) be possible with a tandem, but for a single
rider bike, cruzbike offers a short normal chain-line.


JonB
  #3  
Old April 27th 08, 05:49 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Tom Sherman[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,890
Default Chain idler efficiency - roller vs. toothed

Jon Bendtsen wrote:
Tom Sherman wrote:
TandemFan wrote:

[cross-posted to ARBR for Perry Butler's amusement]

We have a R[ANS] Screamer tandem and there are a few idler rollers for
the chain. An outfit sells toothed idlers for about $250:
http://www.terracycle.com/Merchant2/...Code=IdlersALL


They have a long blurb on why they are better:

http://www.terracycle.com/Merchant2/...d e=IdlersALL


What's the scoop? Does it make any difference at all, or are we going
to go faster?

Someone needs to tell Pat Franz that it is "RANS" and not "Rans".

While the manufacturers in question are trying to meet a price point
for their bicycles, they are not going to be putting junk chain idlers
on their bicycles [1]. Therefore, while there is room for improvement,
the gains will likely be small as drive-train friction is a small
component of total non-conservative losses, even on a recumbent with a
complicated chain-line.


Why not avoid idlers and recumbents with complicated chain-lines?

It might not (yet) be possible with a tandem, but for a single
rider bike, cruzbike offers a short normal chain-line.

And introduces a whole other set of compromises in seating position,
weight distribution, traction on steep hills, etc. Long chain lines are
not necessarily a bad thing, as several issues with short chain lines go
away that make wide range gearing difficult.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
  #4  
Old April 27th 08, 11:37 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Jon Bendtsen
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 168
Default Chain idler efficiency - roller vs. toothed

Tom Sherman wrote:
Jon Bendtsen wrote:
Tom Sherman wrote:
TandemFan wrote:

[cross-posted to ARBR for Perry Butler's amusement]

We have a R[ANS] Screamer tandem and there are a few idler rollers for
the chain. An outfit sells toothed idlers for about $250:
http://www.terracycle.com/Merchant2/...Code=IdlersALL


They have a long blurb on why they are better:

http://www.terracycle.com/Merchant2/...d e=IdlersALL


What's the scoop? Does it make any difference at all, or are we going
to go faster?

Someone needs to tell Pat Franz that it is "RANS" and not "Rans".

While the manufacturers in question are trying to meet a price point
for their bicycles, they are not going to be putting junk chain
idlers on their bicycles [1]. Therefore, while there is room for
improvement, the gains will likely be small as drive-train friction
is a small component of total non-conservative losses, even on a
recumbent with a complicated chain-line.


Why not avoid idlers and recumbents with complicated chain-lines?

It might not (yet) be possible with a tandem, but for a single
rider bike, cruzbike offers a short normal chain-line.

And introduces a whole other set of compromises in seating position,


yeah, thats true.


weight distribution, traction on steep hills, etc. Long chain lines are


actually i dont find the traction too bad up hill. But
we dont really have hills in Denmark, it's just flat flat
flat compared to other places.


not necessarily a bad thing, as several issues with short chain lines go
away that make wide range gearing difficult.


Why would short chainlines make wide range gearing difficult?
  #5  
Old April 28th 08, 10:48 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Adam Kadlubek
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 41
Default Chain idler efficiency - roller vs. toothed

On 28 Kwi, 00:37, Jon Bendtsen wrote:
Tom Sherman wrote:
Jon Bendtsen wrote:
Tom Sherman wrote:
TandemFan wrote:


[cross-posted to ARBR for Perry Butler's amusement]


We have a R[ANS] Screamer tandem and there are a few idler rollers for
the chain. An outfit sells toothed idlers for about $250:
http://www.terracycle.com/Merchant2/...=PROD&Store_Co...


They have a long blurb on why they are better:


http://www.terracycle.com/Merchant2/...=CTGY&Store_Co...


What's the scoop? Does it make any difference at all, or are we going
to go faster?


Someone needs to tell Pat Franz that it is "RANS" and not "Rans".


While the manufacturers in question are trying to meet a price point
for their bicycles, they are not going to be putting junk chain
idlers on their bicycles [1]. Therefore, while there is room for
improvement, the gains will likely be small as drive-train friction
is a small component of total non-conservative losses, even on a
recumbent with a complicated chain-line.


Why not avoid idlers and recumbents with complicated chain-lines?


It might not (yet) be possible with a tandem, but for a single
rider bike, cruzbike offers a short normal chain-line.


And introduces a whole other set of compromises in seating position,


yeah, thats true.

weight distribution, traction on steep hills, etc. Long chain lines are


actually i dont find the traction too bad up hill. But
we dont really have hills in Denmark, it's just flat flat
flat compared to other places.

not necessarily a bad thing, as several issues with short chain lines go
away that make wide range gearing difficult.


Why would short chainlines make wide range gearing difficult?


Cross chain without guilt for instance.

--
Adam Kadlubek
  #6  
Old April 28th 08, 12:38 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Jon Bendtsen
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 168
Default Chain idler efficiency - roller vs. toothed

Adam Kadlubek wrote:
On 28 Kwi, 00:37, Jon Bendtsen wrote:
Tom Sherman wrote:
Jon Bendtsen wrote:
Tom Sherman wrote:
TandemFan wrote:
[cross-posted to ARBR for Perry Butler's amusement]
We have a R[ANS] Screamer tandem and there are a few idler rollers for
the chain. An outfit sells toothed idlers for about $250:
http://www.terracycle.com/Merchant2/...=PROD&Store_Co...
They have a long blurb on why they are better:
http://www.terracycle.com/Merchant2/...=CTGY&Store_Co...
What's the scoop? Does it make any difference at all, or are we going
to go faster?
Someone needs to tell Pat Franz that it is "RANS" and not "Rans".
While the manufacturers in question are trying to meet a price point
for their bicycles, they are not going to be putting junk chain
idlers on their bicycles [1]. Therefore, while there is room for
improvement, the gains will likely be small as drive-train friction
is a small component of total non-conservative losses, even on a
recumbent with a complicated chain-line.
Why not avoid idlers and recumbents with complicated chain-lines?
It might not (yet) be possible with a tandem, but for a single
rider bike, cruzbike offers a short normal chain-line.
And introduces a whole other set of compromises in seating position,

yeah, thats true.

weight distribution, traction on steep hills, etc. Long chain lines are

actually i dont find the traction too bad up hill. But
we dont really have hills in Denmark, it's just flat flat
flat compared to other places.

not necessarily a bad thing, as several issues with short chain lines go
away that make wide range gearing difficult.

Why would short chainlines make wide range gearing difficult?


Cross chain without guilt for instance.


Then combine a rohloff/nuvinci + a schlumpf drive == 0 cross chain.
If normal bikes can live with some cross chain, so can a recumbent.



JonB
  #7  
Old April 29th 08, 03:50 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Tom Sherman[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,890
Default Chain idler efficiency - roller vs. toothed

Jon Bendtsen wrote:
Tom Sherman wrote:
[...]
not necessarily a bad thing, as several issues with short chain lines
go away that make wide range gearing difficult.


Why would short chainlines make wide range gearing difficult?


Proper alignment between front chain wheels and rear sprockets becomes
more critical with a shorter chain line, which makes things more
difficult when using non-standard components.

A long chain line in combination with a idler tensioner (e.g. Easy
Racers) or a mid-drive can allow for chain wheel and sprocket
combinations that would not work on a short chain line unless custom
derailers (sic) were used.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
  #8  
Old April 29th 08, 03:52 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Tom Sherman[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,890
Default Chain idler efficiency - roller vs. toothed

Jon Bendtsen wrote:
Adam Kadlubek wrote:
On 28 Kwi, 00:37, Jon Bendtsen wrote:
Tom Sherman wrote:
Jon Bendtsen wrote:
Tom Sherman wrote:
TandemFan wrote:
[cross-posted to ARBR for Perry Butler's amusement]
We have a R[ANS] Screamer tandem and there are a few idler
rollers for
the chain. An outfit sells toothed idlers for about $250:
http://www.terracycle.com/Merchant2/...=PROD&Store_Co...

They have a long blurb on why they are better:
http://www.terracycle.com/Merchant2/...=CTGY&Store_Co...

What's the scoop? Does it make any difference at all, or are we
going
to go faster?
Someone needs to tell Pat Franz that it is "RANS" and not "Rans".
While the manufacturers in question are trying to meet a price point
for their bicycles, they are not going to be putting junk chain
idlers on their bicycles [1]. Therefore, while there is room for
improvement, the gains will likely be small as drive-train friction
is a small component of total non-conservative losses, even on a
recumbent with a complicated chain-line.
Why not avoid idlers and recumbents with complicated chain-lines?
It might not (yet) be possible with a tandem, but for a single
rider bike, cruzbike offers a short normal chain-line.
And introduces a whole other set of compromises in seating position,
yeah, thats true.

weight distribution, traction on steep hills, etc. Long chain lines are
actually i dont find the traction too bad up hill. But
we dont really have hills in Denmark, it's just flat flat
flat compared to other places.

not necessarily a bad thing, as several issues with short chain
lines go
away that make wide range gearing difficult.
Why would short chainlines make wide range gearing difficult?


Cross chain without guilt for instance.


Then combine a rohloff/nuvinci + a schlumpf drive == 0 cross chain.


No cross chain, but large expense.

If normal bikes can live with some cross chain, so can a recumbent.

Cross-chaining becomes much less of an detriment with a long chain line.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
  #9  
Old April 29th 08, 04:05 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,751
Default Chain idler efficiency - roller vs. toothed

The angle at which the chain enters and leaves front sprockets and
derailleur idlers is the sine of the angle which is the lateral offset
between the two ends of the chain span divided by the free span
length. Therefore, the longer the chainstays and the fewer the gears
on the sprocket cluster, the smaller the angle between chain and
sprocket plane. The angle causes lateral sprocket tooth wear and
idler wheel wear.

Jobst Brandt
 




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