Cable inTop Tube

The first brake cable running through the top tube I saw used a metal
tube brazed inside the top tube but I've recently seen bikes with what
seems to be just a length of regular brake cable, and housing,
threaded through some plastic or rubber fittings so that instead of
the old fashioned long cable clamped under the top tube it is now
simply placed inside the T.T.

Can anyone comment on whether the "new" system is better or worse than
the old system. I am inclined to think that the "new" system with
slots cut in the T.T. and just a plastic or rubber "patch" to hold the
cable may not be as strong as the "old" system where a metal tube is
actually brazed into the T.T. but on the other hand the "old" system
might be over kill.

Comments?
--

Cheers,

John B.

On 5/4/2016 10:37 PM, John B. wrote:

The first brake cable running through the top tube I saw used a metal
tube brazed inside the top tube but I've recently seen bikes with what
seems to be just a length of regular brake cable, and housing,
threaded through some plastic or rubber fittings so that instead of
the old fashioned long cable clamped under the top tube it is now
simply placed inside the T.T.

Can anyone comment on whether the "new" system is better or worse than
the old system. I am inclined to think that the "new" system with
slots cut in the T.T. and just a plastic or rubber "patch" to hold the
cable may not be as strong as the "old" system where a metal tube is
actually brazed into the T.T. but on the other hand the "old" system
might be over kill.

Comments?


The range of diversity on that is quite colorfully wide.

There are steel frames with small steel tube brazed into an
oval cutout at both ends. Some have casing stops at the
ends, bare wire only passes the inside section. Others take
a full outer casing through their length. (I use auto brake
line to repair/replace those) Corrosion is a real issue with
both.

Others leave an opening for a full casing with rubber
locators on the ends:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/gth.html
easy to service but the casing rattles inside the tube and
riders complain of that.

The SR Prizm has a casing port cast into the top headlug and
at the seatlug. There's a finger-sized hole between seat
tube and top tube to guide the wire out. Works well and
looks clean but the advent of robot-welded aluminum frames a
few years afterwards killed the project.
http://www.yellowjersey.org/SRPRIZM.JPG

Some builders have only casing stops at the ends. Good luck
threading the wires! That's quite tedious on some of the
lesser carbon frames now.

Trek changed to a cast end in 1985:
http://www.vintage-trek.com/Trek_timeline.htm
with a rear changer casing stop cast in. Gear wire goes over
a nylon BB plate then into a hole at the bottom of the
chainstay. Those are amazingly difficult to thread so the
following year they added a funnel-shaped nylon guide inside
the chainstay. Those can fall out and stick askew when the
old wire is pulled out.

The 'aero look' fad went down some twisted paths:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/panateam.html
That Panasonic Team America is typical of the era.

Anyway those are a few which come to mind, none is perfect
but all are clever in some ways, particularly better than
clamped-on steel clips with 3mm screws which hold water and
make pits in the top tube.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 2016-05-05 05:52, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/4/2016 10:37 PM, John B. wrote:

The first brake cable running through the top tube I saw used a metal
tube brazed inside the top tube but I've recently seen bikes with what
seems to be just a length of regular brake cable, and housing,
threaded through some plastic or rubber fittings so that instead of
the old fashioned long cable clamped under the top tube it is now
simply placed inside the T.T.

Can anyone comment on whether the "new" system is better or worse than
the old system. I am inclined to think that the "new" system with
slots cut in the T.T. and just a plastic or rubber "patch" to hold the
cable may not be as strong as the "old" system where a metal tube is
actually brazed into the T.T. but on the other hand the "old" system
might be over kill.

Comments?


The range of diversity on that is quite colorfully wide.

There are steel frames with small steel tube brazed into an oval cutout
at both ends. Some have casing stops at the ends, bare wire only passes
the inside section. Others take a full outer casing through their
length. (I use auto brake line to repair/replace those) Corrosion is a
real issue with both.

Others leave an opening for a full casing with rubber locators on the ends:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/gth.html
easy to service but the casing rattles inside the tube and riders
complain of that.


That GIOS frame looks like an almost verbatim copy of my Gazelle Trim
Trophy frame that I still ride. All the way down to the paint color, I
have the same blue. Except for the transfer labels, of course.

Is that crack in photos 6 and 7 something that can happen out of the
blue on these old frames an maybe cause a nasty crash?

I am always surprised when owners are willing to pour so much money into
old road bikes. Many out here do that with Peugoet frames. One guy who I
met at a pub had a fancy Italian bike parked outside and said he has a
Peugeot in restoration, and that he had (so far) sunk more than $1k into it.


The SR Prizm has a casing port cast into the top headlug and at the
seatlug. There's a finger-sized hole between seat tube and top tube to
guide the wire out. Works well and looks clean but the advent of
robot-welded aluminum frames a few years afterwards killed the project.
http://www.yellowjersey.org/SRPRIZM.JPG

Some builders have only casing stops at the ends. Good luck threading
the wires! That's quite tedious on some of the lesser carbon frames now.


Sometimes what helps is to run some thin sewing thread into it and suck
it out the older end with a shop vac. It can also help to make a knot in
it as an "air floation aid" and cut the thread flush after the knot.


Trek changed to a cast end in 1985:
http://www.vintage-trek.com/Trek_timeline.htm
with a rear changer casing stop cast in. Gear wire goes over a nylon BB
plate then into a hole at the bottom of the chainstay. Those are
amazingly difficult to thread so the following year they added a
funnel-shaped nylon guide inside the chainstay. Those can fall out and
stick askew when the old wire is pulled out.

The 'aero look' fad went down some twisted paths:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/panateam.html
That Panasonic Team America is typical of the era.

Anyway those are a few which come to mind, none is perfect but all are
clever in some ways, particularly better than clamped-on steel clips
with 3mm screws which hold water and make pits in the top tube.


Or the brazed-on square loops on MTB with a measly cable-tie meant to
hold a brake hose. Once I had a rider in front of me where that had
popped and the rear brake hose was almost in the spokes. I yelled for a
stop and luckily I carry cable ties in my on-board tool kit.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Fri, 06 May 2016 08:05:09 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Thu, 05 May 2016 16:28:19 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2016-05-05 05:52, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/4/2016 10:37 PM, John B. wrote:

The first brake cable running through the top tube I saw used a metal
tube brazed inside the top tube but I've recently seen bikes with what
seems to be just a length of regular brake cable, and housing,
threaded through some plastic or rubber fittings so that instead of
the old fashioned long cable clamped under the top tube it is now
simply placed inside the T.T.

Can anyone comment on whether the "new" system is better or worse than
the old system. I am inclined to think that the "new" system with
slots cut in the T.T. and just a plastic or rubber "patch" to hold the
cable may not be as strong as the "old" system where a metal tube is
actually brazed into the T.T. but on the other hand the "old" system
might be over kill.

Comments?


The range of diversity on that is quite colorfully wide.

There are steel frames with small steel tube brazed into an oval cutout
at both ends. Some have casing stops at the ends, bare wire only passes
the inside section. Others take a full outer casing through their
length. (I use auto brake line to repair/replace those) Corrosion is a
real issue with both.

Others leave an opening for a full casing with rubber locators on the ends:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/gth.html
easy to service but the casing rattles inside the tube and riders
complain of that.


That GIOS frame looks like an almost verbatim copy of my Gazelle Trim
Trophy frame that I still ride. All the way down to the paint color, I
have the same blue. Except for the transfer labels, of course.

Is that crack in photos 6 and 7 something that can happen out of the
blue on these old frames an maybe cause a nasty crash?

I am always surprised when owners are willing to pour so much money into
old road bikes. Many out here do that with Peugoet frames. One guy who I
met at a pub had a fancy Italian bike parked outside and said he has a
Peugeot in restoration, and that he had (so far) sunk more than $1k into it.


A thousand dollars? But, that is cheaper then buying a new bike of the
same quality.

My LBS has a black plastic bicycle in the front window with a price
tag of about US$ 9,000 and the darned thing doesn't even have pedals.
You have to pay extra to get the pedals.

Think of that. Nearly ten thousand dollars out of pocket and you can't
even push it out of the shop door and get on and ride the thing.
--

Cheers,

John B.

On 5/5/2016 9:05 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 06 May 2016 08:05:09 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Thu, 05 May 2016 16:28:19 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2016-05-05 05:52, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/4/2016 10:37 PM, John B. wrote:

The first brake cable running through the top tube I saw used a metal
tube brazed inside the top tube but I've recently seen bikes with what
seems to be just a length of regular brake cable, and housing,
threaded through some plastic or rubber fittings so that instead of
the old fashioned long cable clamped under the top tube it is now
simply placed inside the T.T.

Can anyone comment on whether the "new" system is better or worse than
the old system. I am inclined to think that the "new" system with
slots cut in the T.T. and just a plastic or rubber "patch" to hold the
cable may not be as strong as the "old" system where a metal tube is
actually brazed into the T.T. but on the other hand the "old" system
might be over kill.

Comments?


The range of diversity on that is quite colorfully wide.

There are steel frames with small steel tube brazed into an oval cutout
at both ends. Some have casing stops at the ends, bare wire only passes
the inside section. Others take a full outer casing through their
length. (I use auto brake line to repair/replace those) Corrosion is a
real issue with both.

Others leave an opening for a full casing with rubber locators on the ends:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/gth.html
easy to service but the casing rattles inside the tube and riders
complain of that.


That GIOS frame looks like an almost verbatim copy of my Gazelle Trim
Trophy frame that I still ride. All the way down to the paint color, I
have the same blue. Except for the transfer labels, of course.

Is that crack in photos 6 and 7 something that can happen out of the
blue on these old frames an maybe cause a nasty crash?

I am always surprised when owners are willing to pour so much money into
old road bikes. Many out here do that with Peugoet frames. One guy who I
met at a pub had a fancy Italian bike parked outside and said he has a
Peugeot in restoration, and that he had (so far) sunk more than $1k into it.


A thousand dollars? But, that is cheaper then buying a new bike of the
same quality.

My LBS has a black plastic bicycle in the front window with a price
tag of about US$ 9,000 and the darned thing doesn't even have pedals.
You have to pay extra to get the pedals.

Think of that. Nearly ten thousand dollars out of pocket and you can't
even push it out of the shop door and get on and ride the thing.


Top price men's suits are sold with no cuffs on the slacks.
You have to wait for that too.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thursday, May 5, 2016 at 7:05:36 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 06 May 2016 08:05:09 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Thu, 05 May 2016 16:28:19 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2016-05-05 05:52, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/4/2016 10:37 PM, John B. wrote:

The first brake cable running through the top tube I saw used a metal
tube brazed inside the top tube but I've recently seen bikes with what
seems to be just a length of regular brake cable, and housing,
threaded through some plastic or rubber fittings so that instead of
the old fashioned long cable clamped under the top tube it is now
simply placed inside the T.T.

Can anyone comment on whether the "new" system is better or worse than
the old system. I am inclined to think that the "new" system with
slots cut in the T.T. and just a plastic or rubber "patch" to hold the
cable may not be as strong as the "old" system where a metal tube is
actually brazed into the T.T. but on the other hand the "old" system
might be over kill.

Comments?


The range of diversity on that is quite colorfully wide.

There are steel frames with small steel tube brazed into an oval cutout
at both ends. Some have casing stops at the ends, bare wire only passes
the inside section. Others take a full outer casing through their
length. (I use auto brake line to repair/replace those) Corrosion is a
real issue with both.

Others leave an opening for a full casing with rubber locators on the ends:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/gth.html
easy to service but the casing rattles inside the tube and riders
complain of that.


That GIOS frame looks like an almost verbatim copy of my Gazelle Trim
Trophy frame that I still ride. All the way down to the paint color, I
have the same blue. Except for the transfer labels, of course.

Is that crack in photos 6 and 7 something that can happen out of the
blue on these old frames an maybe cause a nasty crash?

I am always surprised when owners are willing to pour so much money into
old road bikes. Many out here do that with Peugoet frames. One guy who I
met at a pub had a fancy Italian bike parked outside and said he has a
Peugeot in restoration, and that he had (so far) sunk more than $1k into it.


A thousand dollars? But, that is cheaper then buying a new bike of the
same quality.

That is to restore a Peugeot -- not to buy it new, and I assume it is the restoration of a PX-10 and not a U-08 or some other piece of low-end garbage.. Having owned a 1969 PX-10 (which I bought used in '72), I can say that I would much rather own a close-out CAAD 8 with 105 -- which I could pick up down the street for a penny under $1,000. http://www.bikegallery.com/product/c...5-211525-1.htm No pedals, of course, but then I could go buy a pair of used Lyotard rat-trap pedals for $10 at the Community Cycling Center.

My Peugeot, however, did bring me hours of excitement hunting for odd sized bearings, derailleurs with appropriate clamp sizes, special BBs and headsets and stems. Those clever French -- they had a different standard for everything! That's probably why Joerg's friend is spending so much money on the restoration. I should have bought a Raleigh International.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 5/6/2016 9:16 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, May 5, 2016 at 7:05:36 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 06 May 2016 08:05:09 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Thu, 05 May 2016 16:28:19 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2016-05-05 05:52, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/4/2016 10:37 PM, John B. wrote:

The first brake cable running through the top tube I saw used a metal
tube brazed inside the top tube but I've recently seen bikes with what
seems to be just a length of regular brake cable, and housing,
threaded through some plastic or rubber fittings so that instead of
the old fashioned long cable clamped under the top tube it is now
simply placed inside the T.T.

Can anyone comment on whether the "new" system is better or worse than
the old system. I am inclined to think that the "new" system with
slots cut in the T.T. and just a plastic or rubber "patch" to hold the
cable may not be as strong as the "old" system where a metal tube is
actually brazed into the T.T. but on the other hand the "old" system
might be over kill.

Comments?


The range of diversity on that is quite colorfully wide.

There are steel frames with small steel tube brazed into an oval cutout
at both ends. Some have casing stops at the ends, bare wire only passes
the inside section. Others take a full outer casing through their
length. (I use auto brake line to repair/replace those) Corrosion is a
real issue with both.

Others leave an opening for a full casing with rubber locators on the ends:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/gth.html
easy to service but the casing rattles inside the tube and riders
complain of that.


That GIOS frame looks like an almost verbatim copy of my Gazelle Trim
Trophy frame that I still ride. All the way down to the paint color, I
have the same blue. Except for the transfer labels, of course.

Is that crack in photos 6 and 7 something that can happen out of the
blue on these old frames an maybe cause a nasty crash?

I am always surprised when owners are willing to pour so much money into
old road bikes. Many out here do that with Peugoet frames. One guy who I
met at a pub had a fancy Italian bike parked outside and said he has a
Peugeot in restoration, and that he had (so far) sunk more than $1k into it.


A thousand dollars? But, that is cheaper then buying a new bike of the
same quality.

That is to restore a Peugeot -- not to buy it new, and I assume it is the restoration of a PX-10 and not a U-08 or some other piece of low-end garbage. Having owned a 1969 PX-10 (which I bought used in '72), I can say that I would much rather own a close-out CAAD 8 with 105 -- which I could pick up down the street for a penny under $1,000. http://www.bikegallery.com/product/c...5-211525-1.htm No pedals, of course, but then I could go buy a pair of used Lyotard rat-trap pedals for $10 at the Community Cycling Center.

My Peugeot, however, did bring me hours of excitement hunting for odd sized bearings, derailleurs with appropriate clamp sizes, special BBs and headsets and stems. Those clever French -- they had a different standard for everything! That's probably why Joerg's friend is spending so much money on the restoration. I should have bought a Raleigh International.

-- Jay Beattie.



French Metric format is called "Standard Iternationale"
because no one else uses it.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 2016-05-05 19:05, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 06 May 2016 08:05:09 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Thu, 05 May 2016 16:28:19 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2016-05-05 05:52, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/4/2016 10:37 PM, John B. wrote:

The first brake cable running through the top tube I saw used a metal
tube brazed inside the top tube but I've recently seen bikes with what
seems to be just a length of regular brake cable, and housing,
threaded through some plastic or rubber fittings so that instead of
the old fashioned long cable clamped under the top tube it is now
simply placed inside the T.T.

Can anyone comment on whether the "new" system is better or worse than
the old system. I am inclined to think that the "new" system with
slots cut in the T.T. and just a plastic or rubber "patch" to hold the
cable may not be as strong as the "old" system where a metal tube is
actually brazed into the T.T. but on the other hand the "old" system
might be over kill.

Comments?


The range of diversity on that is quite colorfully wide.

There are steel frames with small steel tube brazed into an oval cutout
at both ends. Some have casing stops at the ends, bare wire only passes
the inside section. Others take a full outer casing through their
length. (I use auto brake line to repair/replace those) Corrosion is a
real issue with both.

Others leave an opening for a full casing with rubber locators on the ends:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/gth.html
easy to service but the casing rattles inside the tube and riders
complain of that.


That GIOS frame looks like an almost verbatim copy of my Gazelle Trim
Trophy frame that I still ride. All the way down to the paint color, I
have the same blue. Except for the transfer labels, of course.

Is that crack in photos 6 and 7 something that can happen out of the
blue on these old frames an maybe cause a nasty crash?

I am always surprised when owners are willing to pour so much money into
old road bikes. Many out here do that with Peugoet frames. One guy who I
met at a pub had a fancy Italian bike parked outside and said he has a
Peugeot in restoration, and that he had (so far) sunk more than $1k into it.


A thousand dollars? But, that is cheaper then buying a new bike of the
same quality.


Not a whole lot and for just a little more you get a very different
level of machine. Like this:

http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/...comp_ti_xv.htm

At the $1k level I expect amenities such as disc brakes and brifters.


My LBS has a black plastic bicycle in the front window with a price
tag of about US$ 9,000 and the darned thing doesn't even have pedals.
You have to pay extra to get the pedals.

Think of that. Nearly ten thousand dollars out of pocket and you can't
even push it out of the shop door and get on and ride the thing.


Well, some people "need" a $3k Rolex to know that it's 10:05am right
now. Others like me make do with a $40 watch that is sturdy and
seemingly lasts forever.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

AMuzi wrote in :

"Standard Iternationale"

Je pense que c'est le "Systeme international", mais tu as raison autrement.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

On Fri, 06 May 2016 07:02:34 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 5/5/2016 9:05 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 06 May 2016 08:05:09 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Thu, 05 May 2016 16:28:19 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2016-05-05 05:52, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/4/2016 10:37 PM, John B. wrote:

The first brake cable running through the top tube I saw used a metal
tube brazed inside the top tube but I've recently seen bikes with what
seems to be just a length of regular brake cable, and housing,
threaded through some plastic or rubber fittings so that instead of
the old fashioned long cable clamped under the top tube it is now
simply placed inside the T.T.

Can anyone comment on whether the "new" system is better or worse than
the old system. I am inclined to think that the "new" system with
slots cut in the T.T. and just a plastic or rubber "patch" to hold the
cable may not be as strong as the "old" system where a metal tube is
actually brazed into the T.T. but on the other hand the "old" system
might be over kill.

Comments?


The range of diversity on that is quite colorfully wide.

There are steel frames with small steel tube brazed into an oval cutout
at both ends. Some have casing stops at the ends, bare wire only passes
the inside section. Others take a full outer casing through their
length. (I use auto brake line to repair/replace those) Corrosion is a
real issue with both.

Others leave an opening for a full casing with rubber locators on the ends:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/gth.html
easy to service but the casing rattles inside the tube and riders
complain of that.


That GIOS frame looks like an almost verbatim copy of my Gazelle Trim
Trophy frame that I still ride. All the way down to the paint color, I
have the same blue. Except for the transfer labels, of course.

Is that crack in photos 6 and 7 something that can happen out of the
blue on these old frames an maybe cause a nasty crash?

I am always surprised when owners are willing to pour so much money into
old road bikes. Many out here do that with Peugoet frames. One guy who I
met at a pub had a fancy Italian bike parked outside and said he has a
Peugeot in restoration, and that he had (so far) sunk more than $1k into it.


A thousand dollars? But, that is cheaper then buying a new bike of the
same quality.

My LBS has a black plastic bicycle in the front window with a price
tag of about US$ 9,000 and the darned thing doesn't even have pedals.
You have to pay extra to get the pedals.

Think of that. Nearly ten thousand dollars out of pocket and you can't
even push it out of the shop door and get on and ride the thing.


Top price men's suits are sold with no cuffs on the slacks.
You have to wait for that too.

Are Pants Cuffs back in style?

I hadn't realized as since I retired I've worn nothing but Levi's or
shorts :-)
--

Cheers,

John B.