cassette clockwise arrow 40 nm

On 07/03/2017 8:59 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/7/2017 5:07 AM, Duane wrote:
jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, March 6, 2017 at 12:41:56 PM UTC-8, Duane wrote:
On 06/03/2017 3:19 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Hello again everyone!

Now I've moved on from the Swedish and
Norwegian standard bikes of the 70s into the
most recent of bike technology, namely the
mountain-bike or "MTB"!

I read on the cassette that you should pull it
40 nm. There is even an arrow pointing the way.
It is the well-known way, but OK.

I know there is a tool for this - torque
wrench, right?

I don't have one, but I do have the everyday
half-inch ratchet, and the special socket with
all the teeth (?) -
of 40 nm, I know only this is a lot and the
reason I know this is every time I remove it, it
is stuck like, very firmly!

When I pull, I hear a crash sound three or
four times. This seems to be normal.

I asked the local guru who did bikes since the
80s. He also claimed he was a master after only
two years. Anyway he suggested it was sand!
But I'm not that stupid I don't make the parts
rudimentary clean before I operate them. So it
is not sand. Besides the sound is much to big
to be sand.

Anyway what do you guys make of all this?


Get a torque wrench and tighten it to 40nm.

I have a couple of torque wrenches, but my cassette took does not have a
socket wrench fitting -- so I use a adjustable wrench. Go ahead and
hate
on me, but I just give the lock ring a good yank. With the serrations,
loosening is unlikely. But now I feel bad and will go out and find a
tool
with a socket wrench fitting.

-- Jay Beattie


No hating. The guy was asking for advice. Best advice is get the right
tool.


Excellent advice but it won't fix his problem as he appears to have
incompatible parts. Adding a 1mm spacer behind low gear will lock his
11t-start cassette on his pre-11t cassette body.

Oh, one more note: Lockrings for 11t are smaller OD. The wrong lockring
will interfere with the chain. Just thought of that after Mr Berg's
comment about 'bucket of parts'.


That's why you the man. You know which questions to ask.

On Monday, March 6, 2017 at 9:32:19 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Monday, March 6, 2017 at 8:39:57 PM UTC-8, Emanuel Berg wrote:
jbeattie wrote:

lock ring a good yank. With the serrations

Where are those, one the spacers
mentioned earlier?

I advise you not to listen to anyone else on this subject except Al Muzi.

You don't need a torque wrench but it's nice to have one and the adapter to work with your cassette key.

The Park cassette tool -- a least the one I have -- doesn't have a female socket fitting. One could use a 1" socket on the end of a torque wrench. It appears that the Park tool is sized for a 1" wrench/socket. Or one could buy the Shimano tool that has a female socket fitting.

40nm is about 30 foot pounds -- about the recommended torque for old square drive crank bolts. It would take a lot of torque to strip a steel freehub body and steel lock ring, and if it were under-torqued (but still given a good twist), the serrations would hold the lock ring. But, again, its always good to follow recommended torque specs.

-- Jay Beattie.

AMuzi wrote:

Excellent advice but it won't fix his problem
as he appears to have incompatible parts.
Adding a 1mm spacer behind low gear will lock
his 11t-start cassette on his pre-11t
cassette body.

OK, now the discussion gets confusing.

When I pulled the lockring, which isn't a bolt,
I heard three crashes when the ring moved in
the direction of the pull. I think I could have
mustered another crash sound, perhaps yet
another one, so most likely I pulled *below*
the prescribed 40 Nm. Next time I do it, God
willing I will use a torque wrench.

Now, riding the bike, all 8 gears work great.
There is no noise. I have not experienced any
practical problems so the issue was more like
understanding the reason for the crash sound.
Especially since I got such a lousy answer from
the professional claiming it was sand! so I got
motivated to find out why.

Now, your theory might still be correct - or
would it imply anything tangible while riding
the bike and changing gear?

Oh, one more note: Lockrings for 11t are
smaller OD. The wrong lockring will interfere
with the chain. Just thought of that after Mr
Berg's comment about 'bucket of parts'.

OK, OD = outside diameter.

As for the buckets of parts sometimes they are
very useful but in this case (the cassette) it
is just for picking apart and hopefully
understanding more, getting used to them and
the tools etc., I'm not trying to put together
another cassette to put on a bike

--
underground experts united .... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
Emacs Gnus Blogomatic ......... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/blogomatic
- so far: 69 Blogomatic articles -

John B. wrote:

The inner surface of the flange on the
retaining nut is serrated and the outside
surface of the small cassette cog is also
serrated and the noise you hear is the
serrations scrapping over each other.
The separations serve to act as a locking
method for the retaining nut.

OK, so this is it:

There is a corresponding pattern of serration
in the lockring (L) and the cassette (C).

Say the (L) has bulge (b) and this is in (C)'s
slot number (s).

When you have it all in your hand, it feels
pretty solid, but put a wrench and pull, (b)
jumps from (s) to (s) + (n) where (n) is the
number of slots skipped, and because it is so
tight, this jump and/or (?) landing makes the
crash sound?

Am I making any (sense) here?

--
underground experts united .... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
Emacs Gnus Blogomatic ......... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/blogomatic
- so far: 69 Blogomatic articles -

John B. wrote:

While admittedly I don't use a torque wrench
a great deal it does depend largely on an
individual's experience.

Due to some "Command Decision" the A.F.
Base where I was stationed decided to break up
the athletic teams that were essentially
professional players with no other duties, and
put them out on the line. I ended up with a 6
foot plus basketball player who literally the
strongest person I ever worked with. He could
pick up a 150 lb. turbo supercharger and hold
it over his head while the crew screwed in the
mount bolts.

We didn't let him be a mechanic though as with
a 1/4" tee handle he would twist off 1/4" bolts
when he tightened them.

Some times a torque wrench is necessary :-)

Me Grimlock love Kup's war stories

--
underground experts united .... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
Emacs Gnus Blogomatic ......... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/blogomatic
- so far: 69 Blogomatic articles -

AMuzi wrote:

Look inside the 11t sprocket and you will see
the splines do not go fully through to the
outside. Add a 1mm spacer behind the low
gear, lube and torque your lockring and that
rattle will go away.

OK, now I get it (I think), by rattle, you mean
what I've called crash sounds. You suggest
I should remove the new cassette, put in the
spacer, and put the cassette back on? Even tho
I don't experience anything negative using it
as it is? And this time, no crash sounds or
"rattle" when pulling?

--
underground experts united .... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
Emacs Gnus Blogomatic ......... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/blogomatic
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On 2017-03-06 17:00, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Joerg wrote:

I use a regular wrench, note the length,
calculate the required pull force at the end
and then I use a suitcase scales that my
sister gave me. A digital one with a hook
where you normally lift a suitcase with to
see if it is still under the required 50lbs.
Under $10.

... really? How do you "mount" it all? Even if
it could be done, ...


It can be done easily. Most of my wrenches have either a loop or a
circumferential groove. If they didn't I could quickly add one. I put
the cassette together (mostly I have them in pieces to be able to mix
and match), tighten all the stuff by hand. Now I slip the wrench onto
the Shimano tool, crank the wrench by hand but not too hard, press the
button on the suitcase scale, slide the hook through the loop or let it
slip into the groove at the other end of the wrench and then pull on its
handle until the display shows the "weight" I calculated to indicate
correct torque.

Ok, you first have to measure the length of your wrench but after some
years doing it this way you already know that. You could also write the
"scale factor" onto the wrench.

I can almost bet this method is more accurate than a ratchet but that's
not the reason I am doing it this way.

My dad used an analog butcher scale. Works just as well but those can
hurt if they accidentally slip off the handle and go flying.


... isn't this like a poor-man's torque wrench and much more complicated
at that?


No, it is very practical. I try to be a minimalist with many things. Why
buy and store a torque wrench when it is not truly needed? Then there is
the ratchet mechanism. When it gets old how do you know it is still
accurate? The suitcase scale I can easily check.


of 40 nm, I know only this is a lot and the
reason I know this is every time I remove
it, it is stuck like, very firmly!


It is a lot. But I thought you Vikings are
all supermen with lots of muscle, exclaiming
a loud "uff da" and off the cassette comes
:-)

Sorry, wrong country. That's the Norwegian
vikings. We on the other hand were clever
merchants even then


:-)


On my Shimano cassettes the end piece that
tightens it up has teeth inside so it will
make a loud ratchet sound at the end. I guess
that was done so it won't come loose during
a ride. If the outer sprocket would ever slip
off and turn free while pedaling hard you
could have a major crash. So it better not
come off.

Indeed, I figured it was something with the
casette. The smallest sprockets (two or three?)
are somewhat loose to begin with. Do you know
what is actually making the sound,
functionality aside?


You mean when tightening? Take apart the old cassette. You'll see
knuckles on the inside (pointing towards the wheel) of the fastening
screw and also knuckles on the surface it comes to rest on. Those
knuckles will cause that rat-tat-tat noise when tightening a cassette.
Think of it as two washboards rubbing on each other with the wavy sides
touching.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Joerg wrote:

It can be done easily [...]

OK, probably I would need a picture to get the
picture... but I believe you, of course.

You mean when tightening? Take apart the old
cassette. You'll see knuckles on the inside
(pointing towards the wheel) of the fastening
screw and also knuckles on the surface it
comes to rest on. Those knuckles will cause
that rat-tat-tat noise when tightening
a cassette. Think of it as two washboards
rubbing on each other with the wavy
sides touching.

OK, now at least I know I was wrong the last
time I suspected I was wrong. How the ... does
that work...? Amazing, you pull a ring and the
hole thing tightens up? Still, why the singular
crash sound and not a long squeeeek or as you
say rat-tat-tat? This was more complete silence
- pull - CRASH - new position of lock ring.
How does the rotation make the whole cylinder
more tight? Or is tightening confined to the
part where the lockring is? Man, we should have
a 3D-animation to show this!

--
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with: #moasen @ irc.freenode.net 6667

On 2017-03-07 08:46, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Joerg wrote:

It can be done easily [...]

OK, probably I would need a picture to get the
picture... but I believe you, of course.


Here you go. Looks like others have done it as well:

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/to...le-d_1909.html


You mean when tightening? Take apart the old
cassette. You'll see knuckles on the inside
(pointing towards the wheel) of the fastening
screw and also knuckles on the surface it
comes to rest on. Those knuckles will cause
that rat-tat-tat noise when tightening
a cassette. Think of it as two washboards
rubbing on each other with the wavy
sides touching.

OK, now at least I know I was wrong the last
time I suspected I was wrong. How the ... does
that work...? Amazing, you pull a ring and the
hole thing tightens up?


scratching head

Which ring? The usual cassettes have a large flat screw with a wide rim
around it. That rim has the knuckles or teeth and so does the surface it
comes in contact with when torqued down. Which also makes it tough to
loosen because you have to overcome the first few torque pulses to get
out it out of that "groove hold".


... Still, why the singular
crash sound and not a long squeeeek or as you
say rat-tat-tat? This was more complete silence
- pull - CRASH - new position of lock ring.
How does the rotation make the whole cylinder
more tight? Or is tightening confined to the
part where the lockring is? Man, we should have
a 3D-animation to show this!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ns3x2HD6uqs

Go to 6:30min. You can hear it in the video but you can see the jagged
rotation of the wrench at the end and he mentions the ratcheting effect.
Note he does not use a torque wrench.

Also 2:40min he

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEAASx8ipsI

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Tue, 07 Mar 2017 19:23:22 +0700
John B. wrote:

A Master boat builder sees one of the "hands" driving screws in with a
hammer. Rolf! he shouts, "What the H___ do you think those screws got
that slot in the head for?" Rolf looks up and says, "Oh yes Boss,
that's to take them out with".

Where I grew up an insult to the folks in the nearby city was to call a
hammer a "Brummagem screwdriver".

If my turntable was working I'd put on the "Bert and I" album now.
Hang on clickety clickety -- I can get it on CD! http://www.bert-and-i.com/


Mike