The one thing that couldn't go wrong, did go wrong.

I got my new wheels. Neuvation M28 Aeros. Cheap, but well
reviewed.

I got a new cassette because moving from 6 to 9 speeds was
part of the justification for the new wheels (the old cogs
are on a freewheel and it's a bit eccentric).

I got a new chain because of the new 9-speed, and a spare
one.

I got new tires and tubes because these are 700C wheels and
my old ones are 27-inch.

I got a cassette tool and a chain whip (in case I had to
remove the cassette once I had it installed).

I got rim tape.

I put the cassette on the wheels, put a tube and tire on
the rear wheel, pumped it up, listened to it blow off,
removed it, put a new tube in, pumped it up, and then put a
tube and tire on the front without incident. The one that
blew must have been defective, because I double-checked
the bead after I set it, and the others aren't showing
any signs of weakness.

I racked my bike, removed its wheels, broke the chain, put
the new front wheel on, and went to put the rear on.

Um.

The new rear hub is 130 mm wide.

Turns out I'd mis-measured my rear stays and they're only
124 mm. The frame is made of steel. It's reinforced by the
brake mount, so it doesn't flex much the way I need it to.
No way am I bending this frame, and I really don't want to
have anyone else do it either.

So I'm kinda screwed at this point.

I can't put this wheel on this frame. The front fits fine.

I can't use a 130-mm rear. And if I switch the hub out,
I'll probably not be able to use a 9-speed cassette.

Dammit.

How did I measure that wrong? I used a caliper and it's way
the hell off. Maybe I measured the front and assumed...

Dammit.

DAMMIT DAMMIT DAMMIT.

And now I can't ride tomorrow because I broke the chain and
I don't have a replacement pin for it...

Maybe the new chain will work. It has a split link, so I
can afford to try it. It might slip between the cogs,
though. And I'll need to lube it, if not strip and lube
it...

Or I can pull my MTB off its hook and go ride in South
Mountain Park.

Dammit dammit dammit.

I wanted to be on my new, lighter, smoother, truer, aero
wheels.

Dammit.

--Blair
"Shut up, Lance. Today, it *is* about
the damned bike."

Blair P. Houghton wrote:

Turns out I'd mis-measured my rear stays and they're only
124 mm. The frame is made of steel. It's reinforced by the
brake mount, so it doesn't flex much the way I need it to.
No way am I bending this frame, and I really don't want to
have anyone else do it either.

I'd reconsider if I were you. I guarantee you that whoever built your
frame bent it at least that much just to put it in its original state.

If it hasn't been deeply corroded internally, it will move again
without damage. If it has been so corroded, better to find out now
than somewhere out on the road.

I have no less than four bikes at home-- all but one of my factory-made
steel frames-- that have been bent to a wider spacing. I've had no
problems as a result of this.

Chalo Colina

Chalo is right. Ive got three bikes with 124-126 mm spacing running 9
speeds. No problems. Go ahead and spread the frame slightly and run 9
speed.

I agree with Chalo - I just cold-set a 126mm frame (which is what I
suspect yours is, if it was 6 speed)to 130 without issue, also with a
braced seatstay. It was a little bit of grunting, and that's it.

Works beautifully.

Unless this is a big bucks frame, i vote that you do it yourself. if
it's big bucks, I vote that you bring it to a shop & have them do it
for you.
Good luck.
-A.

Blair P. Houghton wrote:
I got my new wheels. Neuvation M28 Aeros. Cheap, but well
reviewed.

I got a new cassette because moving from 6 to 9 speeds was
part of the justification for the new wheels (the old cogs
are on a freewheel and it's a bit eccentric).

I got a new chain because of the new 9-speed, and a spare
one.

I got new tires and tubes because these are 700C wheels and
my old ones are 27-inch.

I got a cassette tool and a chain whip (in case I had to
remove the cassette once I had it installed).

I got rim tape.

I put the cassette on the wheels, put a tube and tire on
the rear wheel, pumped it up, listened to it blow off,
removed it, put a new tube in, pumped it up, and then put a
tube and tire on the front without incident. The one that
blew must have been defective, because I double-checked
the bead after I set it, and the others aren't showing
any signs of weakness.

I racked my bike, removed its wheels, broke the chain, put
the new front wheel on, and went to put the rear on.

Um.

The new rear hub is 130 mm wide.

Turns out I'd mis-measured my rear stays and they're only
124 mm. The frame is made of steel. It's reinforced by the
brake mount, so it doesn't flex much the way I need it to.
No way am I bending this frame, and I really don't want to
have anyone else do it either.

So I'm kinda screwed at this point.

I can't put this wheel on this frame. The front fits fine.

I can't use a 130-mm rear. And if I switch the hub out,
I'll probably not be able to use a 9-speed cassette.

Dammit.

How did I measure that wrong? I used a caliper and it's way
the hell off. Maybe I measured the front and assumed...

Dammit.

DAMMIT DAMMIT DAMMIT.

And now I can't ride tomorrow because I broke the chain and
I don't have a replacement pin for it...

Maybe the new chain will work. It has a split link, so I
can afford to try it. It might slip between the cogs,
though. And I'll need to lube it, if not strip and lube
it...

Or I can pull my MTB off its hook and go ride in South
Mountain Park.

Dammit dammit dammit.

I wanted to be on my new, lighter, smoother, truer, aero
wheels.

Dammit.

Spreading a steel frame a few mm should be fine.

The bigger problem you need to worry about are your brakes. You are
moving from a 27" (630mm rim) to a 700c (622mm rim). Your braking
surfaces will be 4mm further out. Can you brakes reach that additional
4mm? That is usually the biggest issue converting old frames like
that.

- rick

Rick wrote:
Spreading a steel frame a few mm should be fine.

If it was a beater or a new bike, I'd consider it good exercise.

But this is my Holdsworth.

One slip, and 22 years of history, maybe 40k miles, dumped
on the junk-heap.

I'd rather find a solution that narrows the rear axle.

I talked to a wrench at the Supergo. He said to check for
spacers, and maybe Neuvation would have axels for slimmer
spacings (I remeasured; it's really 126 mm...amazing
how just 2 mm of flex per stay is near impossible to get
without some permanent bending...)

I'll even go down to an 8-speed or 7-speed rear setup, if
that's what I need to do. The 9-speed will be really close
against the right lug, and my not clear the chainstay,
which doesn't have the ogee that newer frames have. Though
the lug is pretty long, so maybe the clearance will only be
a problem during installation.

But to keep the wheel centered without causing severe
dishing problems I might have to lose a cog. No biggie.
The hard part would be losing the right cog. I could
lose the 12T, but I'd rather lose the 25T, but of course
it's pinned to the 23T and 21T, for no really good reason.

The bigger problem you need to worry about are your brakes. You are
moving from a 27" (630mm rim) to a 700c (622mm rim). Your braking
surfaces will be 4mm further out. Can you brakes reach that additional
4mm? That is usually the biggest issue converting old frames like
that.

I saw that coming months before I even decided to change
wheelsets. The calipers did have an extra 4 mm of float
left in them, so it was merely an adjustment. I've left
the new front wheel on and test-ridden it around the
cul-de-sac. Once the pads get used to the new surface,
it'll be just fine.

I also put on the new chain, and if anything it shifts
cleaner than the old one. I don't know if it's as strong,
being a narrower 9-speed, and it uses the SRAM split-link
connector, which looks a bit flimsy.

--Blair
"Maybe if I ground 4 mm out of the lugs..."

Blair P. Houghton wrote:
Rick wrote:
Spreading a steel frame a few mm should be fine.

If it was a beater or a new bike, I'd consider it good exercise.

But this is my Holdsworth.

One slip, and 22 years of history, maybe 40k miles, dumped
on the junk-heap.

A professional would not slip. A good professional will use a frame
jig, spread gently, make sure it is all aligned.

I'd rather find a solution that narrows the rear axle.

I talked to a wrench at the Supergo. He said to check for
spacers, and maybe Neuvation would have axels for slimmer
spacings (I remeasured; it's really 126 mm...amazing
how just 2 mm of flex per stay is near impossible to get
without some permanent bending...)

That's odd. We do near that much spreading all the time. A lot of
folks have some of the newer bikes that are spaced at 132.5, right
between 130 and 135. Allows one to use either sized wheel. We are
considering re-spacing a classic bike with 126 spacing to 128 so we can
use 126 or 130 alternatively. Anyway, when we install a 135mm spaced
wheel on a wheel with 132.5 spacing we have to pull out a minimum of
2.5mm. I know of folks running 130 on 126 spaced frames; I prefer not
to as it is more work to mount the wheel, and I like it easy if I have
to fix a flat on the road :-)

I'll even go down to an 8-speed or 7-speed rear setup, if
that's what I need to do. The 9-speed will be really close
against the right lug, and my not clear the chainstay,
which doesn't have the ogee that newer frames have. Though
the lug is pretty long, so maybe the clearance will only be
a problem during installation.

I suspect you will need to go to 7sp cassette shell.


I also put on the new chain, and if anything it shifts
cleaner than the old one. I don't know if it's as strong,
being a narrower 9-speed, and it uses the SRAM split-link
connector, which looks a bit flimsy.

I put many thousands of miles per year on those narrow 9sp chains with
connectors (SRAM and Wippermann). Never had a problem, and that
includes loaded touring up really big hills (Alps, Dolomites,
Pyrenees). If those chains can work for me, I doubt you can give them
any more punishment.

- rick

Blair P. Houghton wrote:

If it was a beater or a new bike, I'd consider it good exercise.

But this is my Holdsworth.

One slip, and 22 years of history, maybe 40k miles, dumped
on the junk-heap.

I have a Holdsworth Super Mistral (Black/red panels), first "nice"
frame I ever bought new, 1980. I toured on it, and then used it for a
fixed gear bike and single-speed commuter. Probably not 40k miles, but
at least a lot of the paint is missing...

Yeah, "dogpiling". But maybe sharpening a point or two: My
understanding is that "coldsetting" stays for alignment is routinely
done after brazing, when new. I've been told and have read that some
mass-produced (in bike terms) frames were commonly cold-set by greater
amounts than what's being discussed here.

Sheldon Brown on Holdsworth:

Holdsworth
The Holdsworthy company was a huge retail and mail order concern going
back at least to the 30's. Eventually Holdsworthy bought out many other
framebuilders such as Claud Butler and Freddie Grubb. Holdsworth frames
until the 50's were really extraordinary, and from then until the mid
70's were simply quite nice. The orange and blue professionals were
great riders, and their touring counterparts with the same interesting
wrap-around seat cluster were very cool indeed.
By the late 70's or early 80's, things started getting very mass
produced. Holdsworth frames became the lowest priced frame going, rally
just a step above many nice production bikes. Reality, though, is that
even the later more mediocre examples really ride wonderfully. They are
cheap thrills in the vintage lightweight world. For early 70's models
in guideline condition (especially the orange ones) a price around $850
seems reasonable. Because Holdsworth frames were usually ridden hard,
it may be very hard to find truly great examples. I know that I'm still
looking! For later models with N.R. parts, a value around $550 seems
reasonable.

Open to correction: I understand the later Holdsworths were furnace
brazed, which I guess would mean a minimum amount of constraint (no
jigs) on the tubes as they were joined. Then, coldset to take a wheel.

Making the point that "our" Holdsworths have probably already been
coldset at least once. (Please see * below)

There's lots of extra beef in there ("design" factor moot).

Sheldon's caution is something anyone would have to include with this
procedural. Sure, you could start out Force 10 and ruin a frame. Hence
Sheldon's caution; but the somewhat dismissive tone of a few posters
here, who have seen exactly this OLD adjustment done many times, speaks
volumes. "NBD". Repeating, very common when OLD standards changed
because, if for no other reason, flat repair, especially with packs and
fenders on, is (maybe a whole lot) easier if the wheel slides in and
out without having to spread the stays. In the rain, etc.

Perhaps a direct question: Has anyone seen a frame being widened for
130 OLD ruined, in a "professional setting"?

*Just to say: I also had a Roberts ("Club") touring frame, which was
(allegedly, g) a low-volume, hand-brazed blah blah English 531 bike
with Campy DO's; specs and measurements almost identical to the
Holdsworth (I splurged on a fancy touring bike, back when I was
touring, late 70's to mid-80's). I always thought the Holdsworth rode
better, for half the price; this is partly why the Holdsworth hangs in
my garage, while the Roberts lives with a Japanese rider/collector.
--Tom Paterson

Just another data point - I guess now adding up to the "mountain" of data
points. I had a local shop here in Seattle "cold set" my mid 70s 530
tubing frame to 130 - no problems whatsoever.

Slightly off topic - I had a Holdsworth "competition" model. I bought the
frame in London around 1972. Took it home, built it up and rode it for
years. Wish I still had it. Sloping fork crown, wrap around seat stays,
kind of neat.

Anyone in the group remember Harry Quinn frames?

Anyway, unless it's a point of stubborn hubris, I just can't see why the
OP would hesitate to get a quality shop to do a cold set.

- Jon

Blair P. Houghton wrote:
If it was a beater or a new bike, I'd consider it good exercise.
But this is my Holdsworth.
One slip, and 22 years of history, maybe 40k miles, dumped
on the junk-heap.

wrote:
I have a Holdsworth Super Mistral (Black/red panels), first "nice"
frame I ever bought new, 1980. I toured on it, and then used it for a
fixed gear bike and single-speed commuter. Probably not 40k miles, but
at least a lot of the paint is missing...

Yeah, "dogpiling". But maybe sharpening a point or two: My
understanding is that "coldsetting" stays for alignment is routinely
done after brazing, when new. I've been told and have read that some
mass-produced (in bike terms) frames were commonly cold-set by greater
amounts than what's being discussed here.
-snip-
Open to correction: I understand the later Holdsworths were furnace
brazed, which I guess would mean a minimum amount of constraint (no
jigs) on the tubes as they were joined. Then, coldset to take a wheel.
-snip-

Here's the later (final) Holdsworth facility on Oakfield
road; no 'furnace brazing'.
http://www.yellowjersey.org/hwfact.html

I didn't see any 'hearth brazing'(as it was called then)
when I was at the Putney facility in the early seventies
either.

My own '53 Raleigh _was_ built that way. It's been widened
and even de-pretzeled after an horrific crash but rides
straight to this day. Every day.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971