Old Bicycle re-hab

I finally bought the second (3rd? 4th?) hand bike I mentioned a week
or so ago and it appears that it is probably a high end Japanese road
bike from the 1970's. In any event I plan to make a few modifications
, convert to 10 speed, and repaint. The frame will take a bit of work
- adding braze-ons for a second bottle bracket, fender eyelets on the
fork and rear drop outs, and some cable stops for the rear brake
cable.

I really like the looks of some of the classic Italian bikes that had
chrome ends on the forks and rear triangle and have been thinking of
chroming part of the frame before I paint it.

I've got a pretty good relationship with a chrome shop and he has,
over the years, done considerable work for me and is willing to
undertake fussy little jobs like polishing and chroming the hardware
for a banjo - thirty or forty fiddly little bits some of them hardly
as big as a match stick - so the chroming of only part of the forks
and rear triangle is not a problem. However, there are two things I am
a bit concerned about.

Firstly this frame is certainly double butted chromoly which makes it
likely that the fork and chain stays are a bit thinner than usual and
I'm wondering whether to just let the guy polish away or to instruct
him to do a less that 1st class job with the idea of retaining as much
tube thickness as possible, and secondly there might be a problem with
hydrogen embitterment, depending on the composition and hardness of
the tubes.

Question, Has anyone chromed a high end frame and what was the
results? Did you have the polisher do a slap-dash polishing job to
avoid thinning the tubes or just let them do "their thing"?

Question. Has anyone chromed a high end, light weight, frame and later
had it break in a manner that might indicate embitterment?



--
cheers,

John B.

On 9/6/2015 7:46 AM, John B. wrote:

I finally bought the second (3rd? 4th?) hand bike I mentioned a week
or so ago and it appears that it is probably a high end Japanese road
bike from the 1970's. In any event I plan to make a few modifications
, convert to 10 speed, and repaint. The frame will take a bit of work
- adding braze-ons for a second bottle bracket, fender eyelets on the
fork and rear drop outs, and some cable stops for the rear brake
cable.

I really like the looks of some of the classic Italian bikes that had
chrome ends on the forks and rear triangle and have been thinking of
chroming part of the frame before I paint it.

I've got a pretty good relationship with a chrome shop and he has,
over the years, done considerable work for me and is willing to
undertake fussy little jobs like polishing and chroming the hardware
for a banjo - thirty or forty fiddly little bits some of them hardly
as big as a match stick - so the chroming of only part of the forks
and rear triangle is not a problem. However, there are two things I am
a bit concerned about.

Firstly this frame is certainly double butted chromoly which makes it
likely that the fork and chain stays are a bit thinner than usual and
I'm wondering whether to just let the guy polish away or to instruct
him to do a less that 1st class job with the idea of retaining as much
tube thickness as possible, and secondly there might be a problem with
hydrogen embitterment, depending on the composition and hardness of
the tubes.

Question, Has anyone chromed a high end frame and what was the
results? Did you have the polisher do a slap-dash polishing job to
avoid thinning the tubes or just let them do "their thing"?

Question. Has anyone chromed a high end, light weight, frame and later
had it break in a manner that might indicate embitterment?



--
cheers,

John B.


We have a regular customer in Thailand who reports excellent
chroming service, at giveaway rates compared to USA,
including a pair of classic Cinellis. A business with high
voltage, vats of acid, cotton dust and humans holding odd
shaped objects against big buff wheels is a regulator's
dream and so a large number have been eliminated. The
remaining ones are mostly tumble platers of small parts.

As with any plater, I would take some time to explain that
the lug edges and bottle bosses need not be completely
removed on the buff wheel. Also try to impress him that your
tubes are only 0.6mm in the thin parts. A local hobby
builder showed us a fork which was cut right through on both
blades just below the crown by a plater whose usual work is
furniture and classic car bumpers.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sun, 06 Sep 2015 19:46:31 +0700, John B.
wrote:


I finally bought the second (3rd? 4th?) hand bike I mentioned a week
or so ago and it appears that it is probably a high end Japanese road
bike from the 1970's. In any event I plan to make a few modifications
, convert to 10 speed, and repaint. The frame will take a bit of work
- adding braze-ons for a second bottle bracket, fender eyelets on the
fork and rear drop outs, and some cable stops for the rear brake
cable.

I really like the looks of some of the classic Italian bikes that had
chrome ends on the forks and rear triangle and have been thinking of
chroming part of the frame before I paint it.

I've got a pretty good relationship with a chrome shop and he has,
over the years, done considerable work for me and is willing to
undertake fussy little jobs like polishing and chroming the hardware
for a banjo - thirty or forty fiddly little bits some of them hardly
as big as a match stick - so the chroming of only part of the forks
and rear triangle is not a problem. However, there are two things I am
a bit concerned about.

Firstly this frame is certainly double butted chromoly which makes it
likely that the fork and chain stays are a bit thinner than usual and
I'm wondering whether to just let the guy polish away or to instruct
him to do a less that 1st class job with the idea of retaining as much
tube thickness as possible, and secondly there might be a problem with
hydrogen embitterment, depending on the composition and hardness of
the tubes.

Question, Has anyone chromed a high end frame and what was the
results? Did you have the polisher do a slap-dash polishing job to
avoid thinning the tubes or just let them do "their thing"?

Question. Has anyone chromed a high end, light weight, frame and later
had it break in a manner that might indicate embitterment?



That's what "triple chrome plating" is for. Instead of just a "flash
coat" of copper, you plate the copper on good and thick, then polish
away the copper to get a perfectly smooth finish, then nickel plate,
and finally a thin coat of chrome.

On 9/6/2015 12:05 PM, Phil W Lee wrote:
AMuzi considered Sun, 06 Sep 2015 09:35:56 -0500
the perfect time to write:

On 9/6/2015 7:46 AM, John B. wrote:

I finally bought the second (3rd? 4th?) hand bike I mentioned a week
or so ago and it appears that it is probably a high end Japanese road
bike from the 1970's. In any event I plan to make a few modifications
, convert to 10 speed, and repaint. The frame will take a bit of work
- adding braze-ons for a second bottle bracket, fender eyelets on the
fork and rear drop outs, and some cable stops for the rear brake
cable.

I really like the looks of some of the classic Italian bikes that had
chrome ends on the forks and rear triangle and have been thinking of
chroming part of the frame before I paint it.

I've got a pretty good relationship with a chrome shop and he has,
over the years, done considerable work for me and is willing to
undertake fussy little jobs like polishing and chroming the hardware
for a banjo - thirty or forty fiddly little bits some of them hardly
as big as a match stick - so the chroming of only part of the forks
and rear triangle is not a problem. However, there are two things I am
a bit concerned about.

Firstly this frame is certainly double butted chromoly which makes it
likely that the fork and chain stays are a bit thinner than usual and
I'm wondering whether to just let the guy polish away or to instruct
him to do a less that 1st class job with the idea of retaining as much
tube thickness as possible, and secondly there might be a problem with
hydrogen embitterment, depending on the composition and hardness of
the tubes.

Question, Has anyone chromed a high end frame and what was the
results? Did you have the polisher do a slap-dash polishing job to
avoid thinning the tubes or just let them do "their thing"?

Question. Has anyone chromed a high end, light weight, frame and later
had it break in a manner that might indicate embitterment?



--
cheers,

John B.


We have a regular customer in Thailand who reports excellent
chroming service, at giveaway rates compared to USA,
including a pair of classic Cinellis. A business with high
voltage, vats of acid, cotton dust and humans holding odd
shaped objects against big buff wheels is a regulator's
dream and so a large number have been eliminated. The
remaining ones are mostly tumble platers of small parts.

As with any plater, I would take some time to explain that
the lug edges and bottle bosses need not be completely
removed on the buff wheel. Also try to impress him that your
tubes are only 0.6mm in the thin parts. A local hobby
builder showed us a fork which was cut right through on both
blades just below the crown by a plater whose usual work is
furniture and classic car bumpers.

I'd also impress on the chrome shop the necessity of ensuring that
none of the acid cleaning baths get inside any tubes. It would be
almost impossible to adequately rinse, and will eat the tube from the
inside out.


Other way around.
One must ensure that there are vent holes and that they are
adequately sized (2mm+) and not occluded. Acid, water,
winter road salt, whatever always gets in. You need to know
that you can flush it clean afterwards.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sun, 06 Sep 2015 09:35:56 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 9/6/2015 7:46 AM, John B. wrote:

I finally bought the second (3rd? 4th?) hand bike I mentioned a week
or so ago and it appears that it is probably a high end Japanese road
bike from the 1970's. In any event I plan to make a few modifications
, convert to 10 speed, and repaint. The frame will take a bit of work
- adding braze-ons for a second bottle bracket, fender eyelets on the
fork and rear drop outs, and some cable stops for the rear brake
cable.

I really like the looks of some of the classic Italian bikes that had
chrome ends on the forks and rear triangle and have been thinking of
chroming part of the frame before I paint it.

I've got a pretty good relationship with a chrome shop and he has,
over the years, done considerable work for me and is willing to
undertake fussy little jobs like polishing and chroming the hardware
for a banjo - thirty or forty fiddly little bits some of them hardly
as big as a match stick - so the chroming of only part of the forks
and rear triangle is not a problem. However, there are two things I am
a bit concerned about.

Firstly this frame is certainly double butted chromoly which makes it
likely that the fork and chain stays are a bit thinner than usual and
I'm wondering whether to just let the guy polish away or to instruct
him to do a less that 1st class job with the idea of retaining as much
tube thickness as possible, and secondly there might be a problem with
hydrogen embitterment, depending on the composition and hardness of
the tubes.

Question, Has anyone chromed a high end frame and what was the
results? Did you have the polisher do a slap-dash polishing job to
avoid thinning the tubes or just let them do "their thing"?

Question. Has anyone chromed a high end, light weight, frame and later
had it break in a manner that might indicate embitterment?



--
cheers,

John B.


We have a regular customer in Thailand who reports excellent
chroming service, at giveaway rates compared to USA,
including a pair of classic Cinellis. A business with high
voltage, vats of acid, cotton dust and humans holding odd
shaped objects against big buff wheels is a regulator's
dream and so a large number have been eliminated. The
remaining ones are mostly tumble platers of small parts.

Everything is "giveaway rates" compared to USA" :-}

But yes, trying to explain OSHA to a Thai is like trying to describe
the Sahara to a fish.

But having said that years ago I worked in a Gunsmith shop in
Shreveport LA, where we did a considerable amount of hot tank blueing
and plating and the old fellow - probably 60+, who had been a plater
all his life and who managed the plating and blueing end of the
business, had no septum in his nose. Apparently it is a known result
of working with acids and hot solutions of corrosive "stuff".

He was, and had been, aware, since being an apprentice boy, of what
caused the problem and had simply made the decision to ignore it. Had
there been such a thing as OSHA in those days the shop owner would
have had to abandoned that portion of the business and the old fellow
would have been out of a job. As it was he set all prices and
estimates for the blueing/plating side of things and literally paid
the Shop a commission on each job that he did and apparently was doing
right well. He drove a new car, his wife drove a new car, he lived a
bit out in the country on a very nice, and well kept farm. Far better
than having your business shut down or priced out of the market by the
Government :-)

As with any plater, I would take some time to explain that
the lug edges and bottle bosses need not be completely
removed on the buff wheel. Also try to impress him that your
tubes are only 0.6mm in the thin parts. A local hobby
builder showed us a fork which was cut right through on both
blades just below the crown by a plater whose usual work is
furniture and classic car bumpers.

Yes, in any event I will explain exactly what I want and how and as I
mentioned he did all the hardware for a banjo that I rebuilt and did
it exactly as I requested. Another shop had looked at the bag of bits
and pieces I had immediately said that they were so busy at the moment
that it might be "next month".
--
cheers,

John B.

On Sun, 06 Sep 2015 18:05:02 +0100, Phil W Lee
wrote:

AMuzi considered Sun, 06 Sep 2015 09:35:56 -0500
the perfect time to write:

On 9/6/2015 7:46 AM, John B. wrote:

I finally bought the second (3rd? 4th?) hand bike I mentioned a week
or so ago and it appears that it is probably a high end Japanese road
bike from the 1970's. In any event I plan to make a few modifications
, convert to 10 speed, and repaint. The frame will take a bit of work
- adding braze-ons for a second bottle bracket, fender eyelets on the
fork and rear drop outs, and some cable stops for the rear brake
cable.

I really like the looks of some of the classic Italian bikes that had
chrome ends on the forks and rear triangle and have been thinking of
chroming part of the frame before I paint it.

I've got a pretty good relationship with a chrome shop and he has,
over the years, done considerable work for me and is willing to
undertake fussy little jobs like polishing and chroming the hardware
for a banjo - thirty or forty fiddly little bits some of them hardly
as big as a match stick - so the chroming of only part of the forks
and rear triangle is not a problem. However, there are two things I am
a bit concerned about.

Firstly this frame is certainly double butted chromoly which makes it
likely that the fork and chain stays are a bit thinner than usual and
I'm wondering whether to just let the guy polish away or to instruct
him to do a less that 1st class job with the idea of retaining as much
tube thickness as possible, and secondly there might be a problem with
hydrogen embitterment, depending on the composition and hardness of
the tubes.

Question, Has anyone chromed a high end frame and what was the
results? Did you have the polisher do a slap-dash polishing job to
avoid thinning the tubes or just let them do "their thing"?

Question. Has anyone chromed a high end, light weight, frame and later
had it break in a manner that might indicate embitterment?



--
cheers,

John B.


We have a regular customer in Thailand who reports excellent
chroming service, at giveaway rates compared to USA,
including a pair of classic Cinellis. A business with high
voltage, vats of acid, cotton dust and humans holding odd
shaped objects against big buff wheels is a regulator's
dream and so a large number have been eliminated. The
remaining ones are mostly tumble platers of small parts.

As with any plater, I would take some time to explain that
the lug edges and bottle bosses need not be completely
removed on the buff wheel. Also try to impress him that your
tubes are only 0.6mm in the thin parts. A local hobby
builder showed us a fork which was cut right through on both
blades just below the crown by a plater whose usual work is
furniture and classic car bumpers.

I'd also impress on the chrome shop the necessity of ensuring that
none of the acid cleaning baths get inside any tubes. It would be
almost impossible to adequately rinse, and will eat the tube from the
inside out.

Yes. I have looked at the bike closely and there are no holes in the
fork and rear triangle that, for some reason, seems to be "normal
practice" with many makers.

Incidentally the holes are said to allow air expansion during
braze/welding, which is certainly true, but there is no reason not to
braze them closed when the "heavy work" finished and things cool off.
--
cheers,

John B.

On Sun, 06 Sep 2015 13:32:02 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 06 Sep 2015 19:46:31 +0700, John B.
wrote:


I finally bought the second (3rd? 4th?) hand bike I mentioned a week
or so ago and it appears that it is probably a high end Japanese road
bike from the 1970's. In any event I plan to make a few modifications
, convert to 10 speed, and repaint. The frame will take a bit of work
- adding braze-ons for a second bottle bracket, fender eyelets on the
fork and rear drop outs, and some cable stops for the rear brake
cable.

I really like the looks of some of the classic Italian bikes that had
chrome ends on the forks and rear triangle and have been thinking of
chroming part of the frame before I paint it.

I've got a pretty good relationship with a chrome shop and he has,
over the years, done considerable work for me and is willing to
undertake fussy little jobs like polishing and chroming the hardware
for a banjo - thirty or forty fiddly little bits some of them hardly
as big as a match stick - so the chroming of only part of the forks
and rear triangle is not a problem. However, there are two things I am
a bit concerned about.

Firstly this frame is certainly double butted chromoly which makes it
likely that the fork and chain stays are a bit thinner than usual and
I'm wondering whether to just let the guy polish away or to instruct
him to do a less that 1st class job with the idea of retaining as much
tube thickness as possible, and secondly there might be a problem with
hydrogen embitterment, depending on the composition and hardness of
the tubes.

Question, Has anyone chromed a high end frame and what was the
results? Did you have the polisher do a slap-dash polishing job to
avoid thinning the tubes or just let them do "their thing"?

Question. Has anyone chromed a high end, light weight, frame and later
had it break in a manner that might indicate embitterment?



That's what "triple chrome plating" is for. Instead of just a "flash
coat" of copper, you plate the copper on good and thick, then polish
away the copper to get a perfectly smooth finish, then nickel plate,
and finally a thin coat of chrome.

Yes, they guy will do that if asked, but I'm not sure that it is
necessary in this case as we are talking about 4 very narrow
appendages and I think that as long as they are "shiny" it will be
good enough.

I frequently polish things that way. You get the item pretty smooth
and then jump over to the "coloring" wheel and put a high shine on the
item ignoring the presence of some scratch's. While it is not a
perfect job it is pretty good looking. And "pretty good" is pretty
damned good as I go pedaling by you :-}
--
cheers,

John B.

On Sun, 06 Sep 2015 12:52:51 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 9/6/2015 12:05 PM, Phil W Lee wrote:
AMuzi considered Sun, 06 Sep 2015 09:35:56 -0500
the perfect time to write:

On 9/6/2015 7:46 AM, John B. wrote:

I finally bought the second (3rd? 4th?) hand bike I mentioned a week
or so ago and it appears that it is probably a high end Japanese road
bike from the 1970's. In any event I plan to make a few modifications
, convert to 10 speed, and repaint. The frame will take a bit of work
- adding braze-ons for a second bottle bracket, fender eyelets on the
fork and rear drop outs, and some cable stops for the rear brake
cable.

I really like the looks of some of the classic Italian bikes that had
chrome ends on the forks and rear triangle and have been thinking of
chroming part of the frame before I paint it.

I've got a pretty good relationship with a chrome shop and he has,
over the years, done considerable work for me and is willing to
undertake fussy little jobs like polishing and chroming the hardware
for a banjo - thirty or forty fiddly little bits some of them hardly
as big as a match stick - so the chroming of only part of the forks
and rear triangle is not a problem. However, there are two things I am
a bit concerned about.

Firstly this frame is certainly double butted chromoly which makes it
likely that the fork and chain stays are a bit thinner than usual and
I'm wondering whether to just let the guy polish away or to instruct
him to do a less that 1st class job with the idea of retaining as much
tube thickness as possible, and secondly there might be a problem with
hydrogen embitterment, depending on the composition and hardness of
the tubes.

Question, Has anyone chromed a high end frame and what was the
results? Did you have the polisher do a slap-dash polishing job to
avoid thinning the tubes or just let them do "their thing"?

Question. Has anyone chromed a high end, light weight, frame and later
had it break in a manner that might indicate embitterment?



--
cheers,

John B.


We have a regular customer in Thailand who reports excellent
chroming service, at giveaway rates compared to USA,
including a pair of classic Cinellis. A business with high
voltage, vats of acid, cotton dust and humans holding odd
shaped objects against big buff wheels is a regulator's
dream and so a large number have been eliminated. The
remaining ones are mostly tumble platers of small parts.

As with any plater, I would take some time to explain that
the lug edges and bottle bosses need not be completely
removed on the buff wheel. Also try to impress him that your
tubes are only 0.6mm in the thin parts. A local hobby
builder showed us a fork which was cut right through on both
blades just below the crown by a plater whose usual work is
furniture and classic car bumpers.

I'd also impress on the chrome shop the necessity of ensuring that
none of the acid cleaning baths get inside any tubes. It would be
almost impossible to adequately rinse, and will eat the tube from the
inside out.


Other way around.
One must ensure that there are vent holes and that they are
adequately sized (2mm+) and not occluded. Acid, water,
winter road salt, whatever always gets in. You need to know
that you can flush it clean afterwards.

The old method, when building a tubular airplane frame was to drill
connecting holes at each weld joint. When finished, one drilled a
sing;e hole into a tube at one end of the frame. Then with the frame
vertically (with the hole up) you injected linseed oil into the tube
system until it was full. Than hand the frame the other side up until
"all" the oil drains out and close the hole with a sheet metal screw.

This is essentially the method that the Frame Saver guy came up with,
except he doesn't use linseed oil :-}
--
cheers,

John B.

chrome plating a fine Japanese frame is a feudal bourgeoisie Italian desecration of Asian culture, tradition and pride in workmanship

On 9/6/2015 8:16 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 06 Sep 2015 09:35:56 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 9/6/2015 7:46 AM, John B. wrote:

I finally bought the second (3rd? 4th?) hand bike I mentioned a week
or so ago and it appears that it is probably a high end Japanese road
bike from the 1970's. In any event I plan to make a few modifications
, convert to 10 speed, and repaint. The frame will take a bit of work
- adding braze-ons for a second bottle bracket, fender eyelets on the
fork and rear drop outs, and some cable stops for the rear brake
cable.

I really like the looks of some of the classic Italian bikes that had
chrome ends on the forks and rear triangle and have been thinking of
chroming part of the frame before I paint it.

I've got a pretty good relationship with a chrome shop and he has,
over the years, done considerable work for me and is willing to
undertake fussy little jobs like polishing and chroming the hardware
for a banjo - thirty or forty fiddly little bits some of them hardly
as big as a match stick - so the chroming of only part of the forks
and rear triangle is not a problem. However, there are two things I am
a bit concerned about.

Firstly this frame is certainly double butted chromoly which makes it
likely that the fork and chain stays are a bit thinner than usual and
I'm wondering whether to just let the guy polish away or to instruct
him to do a less that 1st class job with the idea of retaining as much
tube thickness as possible, and secondly there might be a problem with
hydrogen embitterment, depending on the composition and hardness of
the tubes.

Question, Has anyone chromed a high end frame and what was the
results? Did you have the polisher do a slap-dash polishing job to
avoid thinning the tubes or just let them do "their thing"?

Question. Has anyone chromed a high end, light weight, frame and later
had it break in a manner that might indicate embitterment?



--
cheers,

John B.


We have a regular customer in Thailand who reports excellent
chroming service, at giveaway rates compared to USA,
including a pair of classic Cinellis. A business with high
voltage, vats of acid, cotton dust and humans holding odd
shaped objects against big buff wheels is a regulator's
dream and so a large number have been eliminated. The
remaining ones are mostly tumble platers of small parts.

Everything is "giveaway rates" compared to USA" :-}

But yes, trying to explain OSHA to a Thai is like trying to describe
the Sahara to a fish.

But having said that years ago I worked in a Gunsmith shop in
Shreveport LA, where we did a considerable amount of hot tank blueing
and plating and the old fellow - probably 60+, who had been a plater
all his life and who managed the plating and blueing end of the
business, had no septum in his nose. Apparently it is a known result
of working with acids and hot solutions of corrosive "stuff".

He was, and had been, aware, since being an apprentice boy, of what
caused the problem and had simply made the decision to ignore it. Had
there been such a thing as OSHA in those days the shop owner would
have had to abandoned that portion of the business and the old fellow
would have been out of a job. As it was he set all prices and
estimates for the blueing/plating side of things and literally paid
the Shop a commission on each job that he did and apparently was doing
right well. He drove a new car, his wife drove a new car, he lived a
bit out in the country on a very nice, and well kept farm. Far better
than having your business shut down or priced out of the market by the
Government :-)

As with any plater, I would take some time to explain that
the lug edges and bottle bosses need not be completely
removed on the buff wheel. Also try to impress him that your
tubes are only 0.6mm in the thin parts. A local hobby
builder showed us a fork which was cut right through on both
blades just below the crown by a plater whose usual work is
furniture and classic car bumpers.

Yes, in any event I will explain exactly what I want and how and as I
mentioned he did all the hardware for a banjo that I rebuilt and did
it exactly as I requested. Another shop had looked at the bag of bits
and pieces I had immediately said that they were so busy at the moment
that it might be "next month".


"But yes, trying to explain OSHA to a Thai is like trying
to describe the Sahara to a fish."

Examples abound.

Stalin accused the landed farmers of not producing enough
wheat so he killed nearly all of them. The more they killed,
the less wheat was produced.

The net effect was to strengthen the Party and the NKVD.

Several millions in Russia and Ukraine starved to death but
from the Party viewpoint that's minor collateral damage.
Regulators care about regulation and the power of the
martinets, not jobs, not GDP, not actual citizens' lives.


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971