The one thing that couldn't go wrong, did go wrong.

On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 22:19:01 GMT, Blair P. Houghton wrote:

Dennis P. Harris wrote:
On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 06:53:01 GMT in rec.bicycles.tech, Blair P.
Houghton wrote:

But I've got enough practice with mechanicals to know that
theory don't mean **** when you're standing there with a
broken widget in your hand.

it's steel. it's not going to break.

...said the designers of the Tacoma Narrows bridge.

if you want to be gentle,
use a long bolt, several large washers, and a couple of nuts and
spred it gently by increasing the distance between two nuts on
the inside of the dropouts until you have the width you need.

you keep obsessing about this frame. steel frams bend quite
easily, especially for the small distance that you're discussing,
6 to 8 mm. it's almost impossible to damage a steel frame by
gently spreading the rear dropouts.

How do I guarantee that the lugs won't separate from the
frame at the welds under this non-designed stress; how do I
ensure that the two stays move outward the same distance;
and how do I know the bar on which the brake is mounted
won't break from one stay or the other?

Because they aren't welded, they are brazed. It is a stress for which the frame
was designed - when it was designed and brazed together it was with the
understanding that alignment by cold setting would almost surely be needed.

We know it is safe because it is done all the time.

All that having been said, it's your bike and you get to decide how to make it
do what you want. Apparently you'll have to do something clever in the rear
shifting department to get the gearing you want without spreading the frame.
Perhaps an 8 of 9 arrangement.

Ron

Dennis P. Harris writes:

But I've got enough practice with mechanicals to know that theory
don't mean **** when you're standing there with a broken widget in
your hand.

It's steel. It's not going to break. If you want to be gentle, use
a long bolt, several large washers, and a couple of nuts and spread
it gently by increasing the distance between two nuts on the inside
of the dropouts until you have the width you need.

You keep obsessing about this frame. Steel frames bend quite
easily, especially for the small distance that you're discussing, 6
to 8 mm. It's almost impossible to damage a steel frame by gently
spreading the rear dropouts.

As was already mentioned by Andrew Muzi, who runs a bicycle shop where
this is a common procedu

Lay your frame without wheel flat on the ground. Put your foot
on the frame end. Lift the other one with both hands until it
stays at 130mm. Go ride. Sometime when it's convenient, have
the alignment checked.

To which I added:

Let me add to that to place your foot at the brake bridge of the
side on the floor and pull up on the dropout that is upward with
care, noting when spacing has increased by half the required
distance. Then repeat on the other side. Overshoot isn't good.

The reason this more complex procedure is advisable is that just
pulling the dropouts apart will cause an asymmetric spread, the two
rear triangles not being identical. By placing ones foot on the
downside seatstay at the brake bridge, while bending the other,
assures that only the up-side will bend, it receiving the greater
bending moment.

Doing this one half at a time and measuring carefully will assure that
the frame has symmetry afterwards. Since this is a steel frame, there
is no hazard of breaking, especially with the small bends required to
make the necessary change.

At this point the dropouts are no longer parallel (if they ever
were) but the angle is smaller than you want to know about.

There are special tools for making that alignment:

http://www.parktool.com/tools/FFG_1.shtml

Jobst Brandt






Jobst Brandt

wrote:
Blair P. Houghton writes:
I'd rather find the right axle or find out it's not possible to find
one, first.

It's not the axle but the width of hub and freewheel that defines
frame spacing.

Define "axle".

I'm defining it as the parts of the wheel that don't
rotate; they include the part that mates with the inner
surface of the lug.

That is the part that defines the spacing.

If it's a two-piece affair, one on either side of the hub,
then yes, the hub would have to be replaced entirely. But
the wrench at my LBS implied it would be an axle change,
not a hub change.

Changing the hub would not be a simple thing, if the aero
spokes Neuvation used are not compatible with someone
else's hubs, because they don't appear to make anything
other than 130mm.

In this case, repacking the bearings is much the less-stressful
solution.

Or, rearrange the deck chairs as the ship sinks. What does this have
to do with the OP's frame width adjustment?

I'm the OP.

Changing axles requires repacking bearings. Unless you
have magic axles without bearings.

--Blair
"I'm not emotionally attached to the axle."

Blair P. Houghton wrote:
Changing axles requires repacking bearings. Unless you
have magic axles without bearings.

May I suggest a look at the Neuvation hub technical sheet? Your hubs
have sealed bearings; no need to repack them when you change the axle.
http://www.neuvationcycling.com/pdf/...icalsheets.pdf

Of course, I'd just re-space the frame and there'd be no need to change
the axle.

wrote:
Blair P. Houghton wrote:
Changing axles requires repacking bearings. Unless you
have magic axles without bearings.

May I suggest a look at the Neuvation hub technical sheet? Your hubs
have sealed bearings; no need to repack them when you change the axle.
http://www.neuvationcycling.com/pdf/...icalsheets.pdf

Of course, I'd just re-space the frame and there'd be no need to change
the axle.

Just found Sheldon's excellent instructions for frame spacing,
including photos:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing.html

It's not that risky, even for a vintage Holdworth (my first real road
bike was a Holdsworth. Great bike, but it shimmied no-hands at 17 and
35 mph.)

Blair P. Houghton wrote:
But I've got enough practice with mechanicals to know that theory
don't mean **** when you're standing there with a broken widget in
your hand.

Dennis P. Harris writes:
It's steel. It's not going to break. If you want to be gentle, use
a long bolt, several large washers, and a couple of nuts and spread
it gently by increasing the distance between two nuts on the inside
of the dropouts until you have the width you need.

wrote:
You keep obsessing about this frame. Steel frames bend quite
easily, especially for the small distance that you're discussing, 6
to 8 mm. It's almost impossible to damage a steel frame by gently
spreading the rear dropouts.

)
Lay your frame without wheel flat on the ground. Put your foot
on the frame end. Lift the other one with both hands until it
stays at 130mm. Go ride. Sometime when it's convenient, have
the alignment checked.

Mr Tomlinson agreed.

wrote:
just
pulling the dropouts apart will cause an asymmetric spread, the two
rear triangles not being identical. By placing ones foot on the
downside seatstay at the brake bridge, while bending the other,
assures that only the up-side will bend, it receiving the greater
bending moment.
At this point the dropouts are no longer parallel (if
they ever
were) but the angle is smaller than you want to know about.
There are special tools for making that alignment:
http://www.parktool.com/tools/FFG_1.shtml

So there you go. Not one experienced cyclist or mechanic
had any reservations . Open the frame and ride. Forget
screwing around with arcane mixed gear systems in the small
space.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Blair P. Houghton writes:

I'd rather find the right axle or find out it's not possible to find
one, first.

It's not the axle but the width of hub and freewheel that defines
frame spacing.

Define "axle".

The shaft on which the hub turns. It's jam nut-to-jam nut width can
be arbitrarily long but the hub and specifically the FW width
prescribe what that dimension must be. I have axles of various
lengths for wider dropout spacing from 120 to 135mm because that is
what bicycle shops stock but my dropouts are 120 because I use an old
ultra-6 SunTour new winner pro freewheel.

I'm defining it as the parts of the wheel that don't rotate; they
include the part that mates with the inner surface of the lug.

That is the part that defines the spacing.

So what?

If it's a two-piece affair, one on either side of the hub, then yes,
the hub would have to be replaced entirely. But the wrench at my
LBS implied it would be an axle change, not a hub change.

Why do would you want to change the axle if it fits in the hub and
freewheel?

Changing the hub would not be a simple thing, if the aero spokes
Neuvation used are not compatible with someone else's hubs, because
they don't appear to make anything other than 130mm.

Just re-space the rear dropouts the way everybody else did as hub
spacings grew with increasing number of gears.

In this case, repacking the bearings is much the less-stressful
solution.

Or, rearrange the deck chairs as the ship sinks. What does this
have to do with the OP's frame width adjustment?

I'm the OP.

Yes?

Changing axles requires repacking bearings. Unless you have magic
axles without bearings.

I think you speak a different mechanical component language than I. I
don't understand what you mean by that. Are we talking about dropout
width or bearing maintenance. I missed the connection.

Jobst Brandt

Blair P. Houghton wrote:


I've got plenty of experience with mechanicals. Enough to
know these two significant things: when you stress old
metal, it doesn't behave the way new metal does;

Sorry, I disagree, unless there's something special going on, like
severe corrosion.

you can't
bend two pieces of metal exactly the same, and the two sides
of the rear triangle are two pieces of metal that need to
be bent exactly the same.

Here's how I did it last time (just a couple months ago): The bike was
a beautiful old Trek touring bike, Reynolds 531, in perfect condition.
I was doing some work on it for a friend, and found the bike shop
hadn't respaced the frame to fit the new hub.

I phoned the owner, explained the problem and said "Do you want me to
fix it?" She said yes. I left the bike in the workstand, got two
blocks of wood and one longer two-by-four, used the two-by-four to pry
the dropouts further apart by putting pressure on the wood blocks. I
used trial and error to get the exact 130mm spacing.

The force was applied evenly and simultaneously to the inside of both
dropouts. The frame passed a quick string alignment check, and the
frame rode perfectly straight when it was all done. It all took 15
minutes or less.

There's also the fact that we're talking about one kind of
metal encased in another (the Campy lugs ...

Was that supposed to be dropouts?

... are hardened and
the surrounding material is not) and once the stays are
widened the lug area has to be realigned, which threatens
to split the join between these dissimilar metals.

I don't know about any differences between Campy dropouts and Trek
dropouts, but there was absolutely no problem realigning the Trek
dropoouts, or the ones on my old Raleigh when I did this, or any other
bike I know of. Besides, I doubt the brazed area of a dropout would be
hardened after brazing. You're probably getting it thoroughly annealed
as you're brazing it.

Really. Seriously. You're making a mountain out of a molehill.

But if you really like your mountain, you're free to keep it. Nobody's
forcing you to perform an easy fix for an irritating problem.

- Frank Krygowski

Blair P. Houghton wrote:
my Holdsworth.

I see the following relevant points:

1. A large body of practical experience says you should be able to
spread the frame no problem, if you do it carefully as described.

2. It's your Holdsworth and your hub, for you to do as you determine
and to take responsibility for. I object to anyone ordering you around
and telling you what to do, instead of merely explaining or even
insisting what you can do without problem.

3. Isn't replacing an axle less strenuous than spreading a frame?
Assuming everything else fits.

4. What's wrong with an original five, or was it six or seven, speed
freewheel with no change? You have a classic Holdsworth, why not leave
it with the original configuration on classic wheels and sell the new
ones on eBay? I don't see any advantage to a modern wheel with its
extreme dish. Who needs so many gears? Who needs so much aero, unless
you are racing? The weight need not be any better..

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 22:14:27 GMT, Blair P. Houghton wrote:

Vee wrote:
Blair P. Houghton wrote:

But I've got enough practice with mechanicals to know that
theory don't mean **** when you're standing there with a
broken widget in your hand.

Others have been polite, but that hasn't worked, so he you're being
stupid about this. The best solution is to respace your Holdsworth.

Others have been polite because there is more than one
solution, and I've told you I don't want to break my
Holdsworth.

It's extremely unlikely to break, as the many examples presented have
shown. If you want to ignore them, fine, but it's irrational.

It's not irrational, it's cautious. It's not their bike
and their dares aren't going to make me try something that
risky.

You've got a non-problem with your bike you want to make into a
problem. Too bad.

It's a real problem and I'm looking for a less risky
solution.

--Blair
"Too bad."