Need opinions on reason for frequent punctures

On Thu, 10 Dec 2020 12:11:03 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 12/10/2020 11:18 AM, William Crowell wrote:
Jay Beattie wrote: "...and actually didn't know they (Forte Pro Lites) were still on the market..."

Yes, I've been aging them for awhile, Jay. The only other tires I've got at the moment are Michelin Pro 4s. I've been aging them, too. Do you think I'd be any better off with those than I was with the Forte tires, or should I hit the LBSs instead, and see what rubber they've got in stock?

I would really like to get some CST Correres, but that's not going to happen until Creepy Joe has a chance to ingratiate the U.S. with the CCP again.

I did call my main man at the LBS yesterday, and asked him if he had any good deals on tires, but he said the same thing: they were low on stock, and when he did get more in stock he certainly wasn't going to be giving them away. Hey Andrew, I know you are reading this, so please tell us if the rubber shortage is affecting you or not.


And everyone else. It's a daily fight for product and prices
are brutal.

You saw in the papers raw latex rates jumped this month.
That affects everyone even beyond our industry's present
troubles.

Not to get too technical but "Latex" is basically raw rubber and is
used primarily in making things like rubber gloves, etc. Tires are
made from what is called here "smoked rubber". The Thai Rubber
Industry has stated that the increased demand for rubber gloves is the
primary cause of latex price increases.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 12/10/2020 5:00 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 10 Dec 2020 12:11:03 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 12/10/2020 11:18 AM, William Crowell wrote:
Jay Beattie wrote: "...and actually didn't know they (Forte Pro Lites) were still on the market..."

Yes, I've been aging them for awhile, Jay. The only other tires I've got at the moment are Michelin Pro 4s. I've been aging them, too. Do you think I'd be any better off with those than I was with the Forte tires, or should I hit the LBSs instead, and see what rubber they've got in stock?

I would really like to get some CST Correres, but that's not going to happen until Creepy Joe has a chance to ingratiate the U.S. with the CCP again.

I did call my main man at the LBS yesterday, and asked him if he had any good deals on tires, but he said the same thing: they were low on stock, and when he did get more in stock he certainly wasn't going to be giving them away. Hey Andrew, I know you are reading this, so please tell us if the rubber shortage is affecting you or not.


And everyone else. It's a daily fight for product and prices
are brutal.

You saw in the papers raw latex rates jumped this month.
That affects everyone even beyond our industry's present
troubles.

Not to get too technical but "Latex" is basically raw rubber and is
used primarily in making things like rubber gloves, etc. Tires are
made from what is called here "smoked rubber". The Thai Rubber
Industry has stated that the increased demand for rubber gloves is the
primary cause of latex price increases.


Tires use both latex and butyl in mixture and price
increases affect all users downstream.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Bertrand wrote:
On 12/10/2020 16:36, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/10/2020 1:55 PM, jbeattie wrote:

With that said, hurry!* Deal of the day at Western Bikeworks is Gatorskins.
https://www.westernbikeworks.com/pro...d-tire-folding
Super fast shipping to the DPR Portland -- I'd ride over there, but that would
take effort.

About that advertisement: Is this a bit of ad trickery?* "60 TPI per layer
casing (3 plies/180 total TPI)..."

My impression is that higher TPI counts signal thinner threads, thus more
flexibility and hopefully lower rolling resistance. Am I right?

It seems like they are saying the tire has three layers of 60 TPI fabric. It may
total 180 TPI but it actually carries the opposite meaning of a high TPI count.
It looks like an attempt to mislead.

Am I misinterpreting things?

I agree that "180 TPI" is misleading, but at least they also clarify that it's 3
plies of 60.

Don't blame wbw, it's Conti's somewhat nasty habit.

On Thu, 10 Dec 2020 17:16:21 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 12/10/2020 5:00 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 10 Dec 2020 12:11:03 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 12/10/2020 11:18 AM, William Crowell wrote:
Jay Beattie wrote: "...and actually didn't know they (Forte Pro Lites) were still on the market..."

Yes, I've been aging them for awhile, Jay. The only other tires I've got at the moment are Michelin Pro 4s. I've been aging them, too. Do you think I'd be any better off with those than I was with the Forte tires, or should I hit the LBSs instead, and see what rubber they've got in stock?

I would really like to get some CST Correres, but that's not going to happen until Creepy Joe has a chance to ingratiate the U.S. with the CCP again.

I did call my main man at the LBS yesterday, and asked him if he had any good deals on tires, but he said the same thing: they were low on stock, and when he did get more in stock he certainly wasn't going to be giving them away. Hey Andrew, I know you are reading this, so please tell us if the rubber shortage is affecting you or not.


And everyone else. It's a daily fight for product and prices
are brutal.

You saw in the papers raw latex rates jumped this month.
That affects everyone even beyond our industry's present
troubles.

Not to get too technical but "Latex" is basically raw rubber and is
used primarily in making things like rubber gloves, etc. Tires are
made from what is called here "smoked rubber". The Thai Rubber
Industry has stated that the increased demand for rubber gloves is the
primary cause of latex price increases.


Tires use both latex and butyl in mixture and price
increases affect all users downstream.

I think you are missing the boat here. When you see references to
"latex" prices you are seeing prices of the natural, untreated, sap
from rubber trees, which is largely used to make rubber gloves, etc.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 12/10/2020 5:31 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 10 Dec 2020 17:16:21 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 12/10/2020 5:00 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 10 Dec 2020 12:11:03 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 12/10/2020 11:18 AM, William Crowell wrote:
Jay Beattie wrote: "...and actually didn't know they (Forte Pro Lites) were still on the market..."

Yes, I've been aging them for awhile, Jay. The only other tires I've got at the moment are Michelin Pro 4s. I've been aging them, too. Do you think I'd be any better off with those than I was with the Forte tires, or should I hit the LBSs instead, and see what rubber they've got in stock?

I would really like to get some CST Correres, but that's not going to happen until Creepy Joe has a chance to ingratiate the U.S. with the CCP again.

I did call my main man at the LBS yesterday, and asked him if he had any good deals on tires, but he said the same thing: they were low on stock, and when he did get more in stock he certainly wasn't going to be giving them away. Hey Andrew, I know you are reading this, so please tell us if the rubber shortage is affecting you or not.


And everyone else. It's a daily fight for product and prices
are brutal.

You saw in the papers raw latex rates jumped this month.
That affects everyone even beyond our industry's present
troubles.

Not to get too technical but "Latex" is basically raw rubber and is
used primarily in making things like rubber gloves, etc. Tires are
made from what is called here "smoked rubber". The Thai Rubber
Industry has stated that the increased demand for rubber gloves is the
primary cause of latex price increases.


Tires use both latex and butyl in mixture and price
increases affect all users downstream.

I think you are missing the boat here. When you see references to
"latex" prices you are seeing prices of the natural, untreated, sap
from rubber trees, which is largely used to make rubber gloves, etc.


No, I'm not.

Modern 'rubber' for tires is part latex and part synthetic:
https://itstillruns.com/chemical-pro...s-8176244.html

roughly 45% latex and 55% synthetic.
What we call 'butyl' inner tube material is high in latex
content, more than for the tire itself.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thu, 10 Dec 2020 19:35:48 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 12/10/2020 5:31 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 10 Dec 2020 17:16:21 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 12/10/2020 5:00 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 10 Dec 2020 12:11:03 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 12/10/2020 11:18 AM, William Crowell wrote:
Jay Beattie wrote: "...and actually didn't know they (Forte Pro Lites) were still on the market..."

Yes, I've been aging them for awhile, Jay. The only other tires I've got at the moment are Michelin Pro 4s. I've been aging them, too. Do you think I'd be any better off with those than I was with the Forte tires, or should I hit the LBSs instead, and see what rubber they've got in stock?

I would really like to get some CST Correres, but that's not going to happen until Creepy Joe has a chance to ingratiate the U.S. with the CCP again.

I did call my main man at the LBS yesterday, and asked him if he had any good deals on tires, but he said the same thing: they were low on stock, and when he did get more in stock he certainly wasn't going to be giving them away. Hey Andrew, I know you are reading this, so please tell us if the rubber shortage is affecting you or not.


And everyone else. It's a daily fight for product and prices
are brutal.

You saw in the papers raw latex rates jumped this month.
That affects everyone even beyond our industry's present
troubles.

Not to get too technical but "Latex" is basically raw rubber and is
used primarily in making things like rubber gloves, etc. Tires are
made from what is called here "smoked rubber". The Thai Rubber
Industry has stated that the increased demand for rubber gloves is the
primary cause of latex price increases.


Tires use both latex and butyl in mixture and price
increases affect all users downstream.

I think you are missing the boat here. When you see references to
"latex" prices you are seeing prices of the natural, untreated, sap
from rubber trees, which is largely used to make rubber gloves, etc.


No, I'm not.

Modern 'rubber' for tires is part latex and part synthetic:
https://itstillruns.com/chemical-pro...s-8176244.html

roughly 45% latex and 55% synthetic.
What we call 'butyl' inner tube material is high in latex
content, more than for the tire itself.

What I am trying to tell you is that when you talk about the price of
Latex you are talking about the price of the unprocessed juice from
rubber trees. If you want to talk about the price of the stuff that
goes into tires it is called here, "smoked rubber". or "sheet rubber",
which is basically latex that has been coagulated with some chemical
or another and is sold in sheets. The reason that is colloquially
called "smoked" is because the sheets are dried, sometimes over a
fire, to reduce the water content.

See
https://www.bangkokpost.com/business...-rubber-prices
http://www.rubber.co.th/ewtadmin/ewt.../menu5_eng.php
for a bit more detail.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 12/10/2020 7:57 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 10 Dec 2020 19:35:48 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 12/10/2020 5:31 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 10 Dec 2020 17:16:21 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 12/10/2020 5:00 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 10 Dec 2020 12:11:03 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 12/10/2020 11:18 AM, William Crowell wrote:
Jay Beattie wrote: "...and actually didn't know they (Forte Pro Lites) were still on the market..."

Yes, I've been aging them for awhile, Jay. The only other tires I've got at the moment are Michelin Pro 4s. I've been aging them, too. Do you think I'd be any better off with those than I was with the Forte tires, or should I hit the LBSs instead, and see what rubber they've got in stock?

I would really like to get some CST Correres, but that's not going to happen until Creepy Joe has a chance to ingratiate the U.S. with the CCP again.

I did call my main man at the LBS yesterday, and asked him if he had any good deals on tires, but he said the same thing: they were low on stock, and when he did get more in stock he certainly wasn't going to be giving them away. Hey Andrew, I know you are reading this, so please tell us if the rubber shortage is affecting you or not.


And everyone else. It's a daily fight for product and prices
are brutal.

You saw in the papers raw latex rates jumped this month.
That affects everyone even beyond our industry's present
troubles.

Not to get too technical but "Latex" is basically raw rubber and is
used primarily in making things like rubber gloves, etc. Tires are
made from what is called here "smoked rubber". The Thai Rubber
Industry has stated that the increased demand for rubber gloves is the
primary cause of latex price increases.


Tires use both latex and butyl in mixture and price
increases affect all users downstream.

I think you are missing the boat here. When you see references to
"latex" prices you are seeing prices of the natural, untreated, sap
from rubber trees, which is largely used to make rubber gloves, etc.


No, I'm not.

Modern 'rubber' for tires is part latex and part synthetic:
https://itstillruns.com/chemical-pro...s-8176244.html

roughly 45% latex and 55% synthetic.
What we call 'butyl' inner tube material is high in latex
content, more than for the tire itself.

What I am trying to tell you is that when you talk about the price of
Latex you are talking about the price of the unprocessed juice from
rubber trees. If you want to talk about the price of the stuff that
goes into tires it is called here, "smoked rubber". or "sheet rubber",
which is basically latex that has been coagulated with some chemical
or another and is sold in sheets. The reason that is colloquially
called "smoked" is because the sheets are dried, sometimes over a
fire, to reduce the water content.

See
https://www.bangkokpost.com/business...-rubber-prices
http://www.rubber.co.th/ewtadmin/ewt.../menu5_eng.php
for a bit more detail.


Yes, you and I are saying the same thing in different ways.

Increase in raw materials price increases finished product
price in exactly the same way that increases in crude
extraction or transit costs directly affect gasoline prices.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thursday, December 10, 2020 at 2:46:02 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, December 10, 2020 at 1:36:42 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/10/2020 1:55 PM, jbeattie wrote:

With that said, hurry! Deal of the day at Western Bikeworks is Gatorskins. https://www.westernbikeworks.com/pro...d-tire-folding Super fast shipping to the DPR Portland -- I'd ride over there, but that would take effort.
About that advertisement: Is this a bit of ad trickery? "60 TPI per
layer casing (3 plies/180 total TPI)..."

My impression is that higher TPI counts signal thinner threads, thus
more flexibility and hopefully lower rolling resistance. Am I right?

It seems like they are saying the tire has three layers of 60 TPI
fabric. It may total 180 TPI but it actually carries the opposite
meaning of a high TPI count. It looks like an attempt to mislead.

Am I misinterpreting things?

--
- Frank Krygowski
I don't know. It's a Gatorskin. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sx4N...el=megamanxoxo

"The Gatorskin uses a 3/180 carcass with DuraSkin fabric and a PolyXBreaker for increased puncture resistance. The rubber compound is a "Durable carbon black mixture." This seems to be quite an old compound which has been optimized for low wear and cold weather grip. Claimed weight of the 25C folding Gatorskin is 240 grams which is a low weight for such a strong tire."

https://www.bicyclerollingresistance...gatorskin-2015

It rides worse than a 4Season, but it is somewhat more flat resistant.

The 4 Seasons had bead-to-bead flat protection and to me at least, the traction appears to be as good as the GP4000. They cost double what that Gatorskin deal is though.

On 11/12/20 2:19 am, William Crowell wrote:
I'm running 700C tires on the country roads around here that have a
fair amount of glass, etc. Everyone tells me I should be using a
heavier wheel and tire, but I'm spoiled by how nicely the 700Cs run
at 110 lbs.

Using Mavic Open Sport rims with Forte Pro-Lite 700C X 23 tires.

I never had a problem with punctures until I switched from the tubes
I had been using to Continental "Conti Race 28" tubes. I bought a
dozen of these tubes online for a really low price, and wondered why
they were such a smokin' deal. But now I am puncturing every time I
ride, after about 10 miles!

There's no apparent puncture in the tire; no glass shards or nails in
it, and the rim strip looks OK.

So is this a no-brainer; i.e., get a different brand of tube and/or
tire? Are my tires too crappy? OK, I hear that, but I wasn't having
any trouble with these cheap tires until now, and was just curious as
the devil to see if anybody else has had of quality problems with the
Conti Race 28 tube? Thanks a lot.


You'll need to do more detective work to find the cause of the
punctures. Is there a hole on the rim side of the tube? Is there a
little hole on the tyre side? Is it possible there's something in the
tyre you haven't seen or felt as you rub your fingers around the inside?

If the road is littered with glass and you routinely get small glass
shards giving punctures, maybe an injection of latex sealant inside the
inner tube might help? I've never needed to try so I don't know if it
will help, and your inner tubes would need to be ones with a removable
stem. Also I think it will make the tyres feel a bit slower, having
liquid latex in them.

--
JS

On Friday, December 11, 2020 at 2:16:43 PM UTC-8, James wrote:
On 11/12/20 2:19 am, William Crowell wrote:
I'm running 700C tires on the country roads around here that have a
fair amount of glass, etc. Everyone tells me I should be using a
heavier wheel and tire, but I'm spoiled by how nicely the 700Cs run
at 110 lbs.

Using Mavic Open Sport rims with Forte Pro-Lite 700C X 23 tires.

I never had a problem with punctures until I switched from the tubes
I had been using to Continental "Conti Race 28" tubes. I bought a
dozen of these tubes online for a really low price, and wondered why
they were such a smokin' deal. But now I am puncturing every time I
ride, after about 10 miles!

There's no apparent puncture in the tire; no glass shards or nails in
it, and the rim strip looks OK.

So is this a no-brainer; i.e., get a different brand of tube and/or
tire? Are my tires too crappy? OK, I hear that, but I wasn't having
any trouble with these cheap tires until now, and was just curious as
the devil to see if anybody else has had of quality problems with the
Conti Race 28 tube? Thanks a lot.

You'll need to do more detective work to find the cause of the
punctures. Is there a hole on the rim side of the tube? Is there a
little hole on the tyre side? Is it possible there's something in the
tyre you haven't seen or felt as you rub your fingers around the inside?

If the road is littered with glass and you routinely get small glass
shards giving punctures, maybe an injection of latex sealant inside the
inner tube might help? I've never needed to try so I don't know if it
will help, and your inner tubes would need to be ones with a removable
stem. Also I think it will make the tyres feel a bit slower, having
liquid latex in them.

Flats do not happen magically and for completely unknown reasons. Finding those reasons are fairly easy with bicycle tires and 23 mm high pressure clinchers in particular. No roads could be worse than those I am forced to navigate and I seldom have flats with 25mm tires and a sharp lookout.