Brifters On A 9-Speed Deore Triple?

On 12/16/2020 3:27 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op woensdag 16 december 2020 om 16:18:13 UTC+1 schreef jbeattie:
On Wednesday, December 16, 2020 at 1:40:29 AM UTC-8, wrote:
Op woensdag 16 december 2020 om 05:07:41 UTC+1 schreef jbeattie:
On Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 6:21:46 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/15/2020 3:07 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/15/2020 12:25 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/14/2020 11:51 PM, John B. wrote:

Actually I should have addressed this to Frank, several
messages ago,
but why should there be "standards" for bicycles? There
aren't
"standards" for autos. You can't put a 1942 Dodge
differential in a
1942 Chevrolet, or a piston from a 2019 Honda in a
Mercedes, nor, for
that matter, a Harley cylinder on a Yamaha or BMW.
So, why bicycles?

I suppose we don't have to have standards. I'm sure that in
the very early days of bicycling - say, around 1895 - there
were essentially none. So we could go back to the practices
of those days, when every maker's crank had a different
pedal thread, chain pitch varied from brand to brand, every
rim fit one brand of tire and vice versa...

My problem is that I began adult cycling at a time when most
parts were pretty compatible. Sure, you had to get the right
seatpost diameter to fit your frame, but brakes, levers,
derailleurs, shifters, chainrings, bottom brackets,
headsets, hubs and more were all pretty easy to replace. You
could easily mix and match, as long as you didn't buy French.

It's gotten a lot more complicated, and choices have gotten
more restricted, mostly because of chasing "improvements"
that most cyclists can't really feel. (How many times have
you heard someone complain that their bottom bracket spindle
isn't sufficiently rigid?)

It is what it is. I buy conservative, so I don't expect I'll
ever have to throw out a frame because I can't buy a bottom
bracket or headset; I'll be OK. And if some guy does have to
throw out a whiz-bang frame, he will have been a guy who
wants the next version of whiz-bang anyway.



" My problem is that I began adult cycling at a time when
most parts were pretty compatible. "

Your remembrance may not be exactly correct. Three threads of crank
extractor, more chainring formats, more handlebar/stem formats and so
on. Probably not that much worse than now but surely no better.
My memory may not be exactly correct. But as I said, I knew not to buy
certain components with French threads. (Our tandem does have TA cranks,
so I have to flip my crank extractor over, but that's simple enough.)

All the handlebars I ever used in those days could be swapped freely.
Any brake lever worked with any brake, any shift lever worked with any
derailleur. Any chain worked with any number of speeds greater than
three. When I changed from Atom (IIRC) freewheels to SunTour, I had to
borrow a remover - once. The worst complication I remember dealing with
was threaded brake shoes for caliper brakes, unthreaded for cantilevers.

As one tiny example: Long, long ago someone gave me a titanium bottom
bracket, square taper. I think they said it was intended for a track
bike. About ten years ago I took an old Reynolds 531 frame and built it
into a three speed, using (almost) entirely parts I had on hand. That
bottom bracket went right in, although I admit I was very lucky on the
chainline. Ditto on the headset and everything else. The only excess
creativity was in fitting fenders (rather low clearance) and the rear
rack (no bosses on the rear dropouts).

How many bottom bracket standards are there today? How many headset
standards? Seems to me it's more complicated than before. Heck, look at
the trouble Tom has sorting things out.
You didn't own a true French bike built before France ****-canned it's odd-ball standards and started selling ISO/British threaded/dimension bikes. Stems, crank dustcap thread, bars, headsets, tube diameter/derailleur claims, freewheel threading (on some French hubs) were all different. Post diameter was not 27.2 but was like 26.8 on my Simplex post, IIRC. Even the frame derailleur threading was different. I couldn't put a Campagnolo RD on my PX10 without tapping the hanger. The only thing you could swap were the groovy clamp-on downtube shifters, which I didn't need for my next bike which was built during the era of braze-on shift bosses.

Yes, there are too many BB standards, although unlike the old French/Italian/British/Swiss issue, its pretty much just buying the right OTC bearing cartridge and squeezing it in. The PF (pressfit) formats are the most tenuous, but if supplies ran out, the PF BBs use their own press fit bearings that can be replaced, although they are harder to find and replace. Standard BB30 bearings (6806) can be bought by the box off Alibaba. https://tinyurl.com/ya5wg7yh If I were buying a new bike, I'd get a threaded BB. I like the el cheap-o external Shimano BBs, plus I own all the wrenches (which also work on Shimano center-lock discs). BTW, I have bikes that are BB30/BB90 and PF86, and they are all quiet -- at least as quiet as my threaded BBs, so I'm not a hater.

I bought a cheap Motobecane Mirage frame from Bike Island and built my son his going-to-college road bike out of parts I had in a box. Modern bikes go together way faster than the olden days. That frame has a threaded BB an internal HS, 9sp. In the time it took me to pull my olde-tyme NR cranks, remove the BB adjustable cup and repack bearings, I can screw in new outboard bearings, reinstall the cranks and drink two beers. Even squeezing BB30 bearings is way faster. Dropping bearings into HS takes like ten minutes. I like the modern era.

-- Jay Beattie.
Ahhh.... the good old days. I replaced the internal routed cables of my 2014 Canyon CF SLX for the first time. Lengthen the outer cables and putting on new bar tape took most of the time by far as it would with an bike from the last century. I also do like the modern era.

Lou
Although the one thing I hate on new bikes is fishing internal cables/housing, although replacing cables/housing is easy, original installation can be a pain.

-- Jay Beattie

Initial installation was easy. The frameset came with guide liners installed. I would expect that every new frameset for internal cable routing comes with guide liners installed.

Lou


Until the rider opens the carton, yanks out all that crap
and then drops it off here for assembly.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Op donderdag 17 december 2020 om 00:31:28 UTC+1 schreef AMuzi:
On 12/16/2020 3:27 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op woensdag 16 december 2020 om 16:18:13 UTC+1 schreef jbeattie:
On Wednesday, December 16, 2020 at 1:40:29 AM UTC-8, wrote:
Op woensdag 16 december 2020 om 05:07:41 UTC+1 schreef jbeattie:
On Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 6:21:46 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/15/2020 3:07 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/15/2020 12:25 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/14/2020 11:51 PM, John B. wrote:

Actually I should have addressed this to Frank, several
messages ago,
but why should there be "standards" for bicycles? There
aren't
"standards" for autos. You can't put a 1942 Dodge
differential in a
1942 Chevrolet, or a piston from a 2019 Honda in a
Mercedes, nor, for
that matter, a Harley cylinder on a Yamaha or BMW.
So, why bicycles?

I suppose we don't have to have standards. I'm sure that in
the very early days of bicycling - say, around 1895 - there
were essentially none. So we could go back to the practices
of those days, when every maker's crank had a different
pedal thread, chain pitch varied from brand to brand, every
rim fit one brand of tire and vice versa...

My problem is that I began adult cycling at a time when most
parts were pretty compatible. Sure, you had to get the right
seatpost diameter to fit your frame, but brakes, levers,
derailleurs, shifters, chainrings, bottom brackets,
headsets, hubs and more were all pretty easy to replace. You
could easily mix and match, as long as you didn't buy French.

It's gotten a lot more complicated, and choices have gotten
more restricted, mostly because of chasing "improvements"
that most cyclists can't really feel. (How many times have
you heard someone complain that their bottom bracket spindle
isn't sufficiently rigid?)

It is what it is. I buy conservative, so I don't expect I'll
ever have to throw out a frame because I can't buy a bottom
bracket or headset; I'll be OK. And if some guy does have to
throw out a whiz-bang frame, he will have been a guy who
wants the next version of whiz-bang anyway.



" My problem is that I began adult cycling at a time when
most parts were pretty compatible. "

Your remembrance may not be exactly correct. Three threads of crank
extractor, more chainring formats, more handlebar/stem formats and so
on. Probably not that much worse than now but surely no better.
My memory may not be exactly correct. But as I said, I knew not to buy
certain components with French threads. (Our tandem does have TA cranks,
so I have to flip my crank extractor over, but that's simple enough..)

All the handlebars I ever used in those days could be swapped freely.
Any brake lever worked with any brake, any shift lever worked with any
derailleur. Any chain worked with any number of speeds greater than
three. When I changed from Atom (IIRC) freewheels to SunTour, I had to
borrow a remover - once. The worst complication I remember dealing with
was threaded brake shoes for caliper brakes, unthreaded for cantilevers.

As one tiny example: Long, long ago someone gave me a titanium bottom
bracket, square taper. I think they said it was intended for a track
bike. About ten years ago I took an old Reynolds 531 frame and built it
into a three speed, using (almost) entirely parts I had on hand. That
bottom bracket went right in, although I admit I was very lucky on the
chainline. Ditto on the headset and everything else. The only excess
creativity was in fitting fenders (rather low clearance) and the rear
rack (no bosses on the rear dropouts).

How many bottom bracket standards are there today? How many headset
standards? Seems to me it's more complicated than before. Heck, look at
the trouble Tom has sorting things out.
You didn't own a true French bike built before France ****-canned it's odd-ball standards and started selling ISO/British threaded/dimension bikes. Stems, crank dustcap thread, bars, headsets, tube diameter/derailleur claims, freewheel threading (on some French hubs) were all different. Post diameter was not 27.2 but was like 26.8 on my Simplex post, IIRC. Even the frame derailleur threading was different. I couldn't put a Campagnolo RD on my PX10 without tapping the hanger. The only thing you could swap were the groovy clamp-on downtube shifters, which I didn't need for my next bike which was built during the era of braze-on shift bosses.

Yes, there are too many BB standards, although unlike the old French/Italian/British/Swiss issue, its pretty much just buying the right OTC bearing cartridge and squeezing it in. The PF (pressfit) formats are the most tenuous, but if supplies ran out, the PF BBs use their own press fit bearings that can be replaced, although they are harder to find and replace. Standard BB30 bearings (6806) can be bought by the box off Alibaba. https://tinyurl.com/ya5wg7yh If I were buying a new bike, I'd get a threaded BB. I like the el cheap-o external Shimano BBs, plus I own all the wrenches (which also work on Shimano center-lock discs). BTW, I have bikes that are BB30/BB90 and PF86, and they are all quiet -- at least as quiet as my threaded BBs, so I'm not a hater.

I bought a cheap Motobecane Mirage frame from Bike Island and built my son his going-to-college road bike out of parts I had in a box. Modern bikes go together way faster than the olden days. That frame has a threaded BB an internal HS, 9sp. In the time it took me to pull my olde-tyme NR cranks, remove the BB adjustable cup and repack bearings, I can screw in new outboard bearings, reinstall the cranks and drink two beers. Even squeezing BB30 bearings is way faster. Dropping bearings into HS takes like ten minutes. I like the modern era.

-- Jay Beattie.
Ahhh.... the good old days. I replaced the internal routed cables of my 2014 Canyon CF SLX for the first time. Lengthen the outer cables and putting on new bar tape took most of the time by far as it would with an bike from the last century. I also do like the modern era.

Lou
Although the one thing I hate on new bikes is fishing internal cables/housing, although replacing cables/housing is easy, original installation can be a pain.

-- Jay Beattie

Initial installation was easy. The frameset came with guide liners installed. I would expect that every new frameset for internal cable routing comes with guide liners installed.

Lou

Until the rider opens the carton, yanks out all that crap
and then drops it off here for assembly.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Yes. Good bussiness for you no?

Lou

On Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 11:22:49 AM UTC-8, Ade wrote:
On 15/12/2020 16:02, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Monday, December 14, 2020 at 3:00:39 PM UTC-8, Ade wrote:
On 11/12/2020 19:46, Mark Hughes wrote:
I would like the wisdom of the great minds here to help me with a project.

I'm putting together a 2019 Kona Sutra to use as a touring bike. Originally, it was a Deore triple, 9-speed, with bar end shifters. At the moment, it is in pieces. The goal is to put brifters on it.

Here's a link to the bike as it was originally sold. I have all the components listed, except the wheels.

(I bought it from a fellow who tried to set the bike up with Shimano's GRX components without realizing that the bottom bracket shell is mountain bike-sized -- 73mm. A 28/38 SLX crankset came along with everything else.)

You might want to consider some Sensah Ignite from aliexpress, about $60
for both brifters.

I bought the 8-speed Sensah Reflex a couple of weeks ago to replace a
broken Claris right shifter and I'm amazed at how good they are.

Just one lever, but in actual use, with winter gloves, it feels a lot
like the Claris a tap to move to a smaller cog and a swing to move to a
bigger cog. Actually it is better than the Claris,

I'm not sure how long they will last, but my last two right Claris
shifters only lasted 6,000 km, they are a third the price so if they
last more than 2,000km I'm on to a winner.
The reports are that these shifters are very unreliable. I know that I bought a set to test and they never worked out of the box.

The levers I have are brilliant, they shifts simply and cleanly. They
feel and look well built. The shifting is slightly lighter than the
Shimano Claris.

The only concern I have are internet reports about the Sensah 11-Speed
"Empire" version, having an internal part made out of thermoplastic
which snaps after a while. Apparently fixed on the new Empire 12 speed,
but I don't know if my shifters have the same problem.

I can't comment on quality control. Mine appear good.

My latest two Shimano Claris brifters have only lasted a year each, due
to the derailleur cable biting into the internal pull wheel on the
rear/right brifter. Clearly a design flaw. AIUI, 105s have the same problem.

The thing that surprised me is that the Sensah only needs one lever for
braking and shifting, as opposed to Shimano's two. A bit of reading
suggests this is due to patents, which perhaps Sensah are not observing.
I believe that they are a sub-contractor for the Shimano Claris which I deem to be junk. If you think that they are good shifters give us another report after 1000 kilometers. I have ever had a 105 brifter fail and cannot see how you could get it to "bite into" that plastic pulley. There are smooth runs in and out of that and unless you've somehow managed to break an inner cable inside that mechanism I can't see any failure points.

On Wednesday, December 16, 2020 at 11:56:09 PM UTC-8, wrote:
Op donderdag 17 december 2020 om 00:31:28 UTC+1 schreef AMuzi:
On 12/16/2020 3:27 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op woensdag 16 december 2020 om 16:18:13 UTC+1 schreef jbeattie:
On Wednesday, December 16, 2020 at 1:40:29 AM UTC-8, wrote:
Op woensdag 16 december 2020 om 05:07:41 UTC+1 schreef jbeattie:
On Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 6:21:46 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/15/2020 3:07 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/15/2020 12:25 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/14/2020 11:51 PM, John B. wrote:

Actually I should have addressed this to Frank, several
messages ago,
but why should there be "standards" for bicycles? There
aren't
"standards" for autos. You can't put a 1942 Dodge
differential in a
1942 Chevrolet, or a piston from a 2019 Honda in a
Mercedes, nor, for
that matter, a Harley cylinder on a Yamaha or BMW.
So, why bicycles?

I suppose we don't have to have standards. I'm sure that in
the very early days of bicycling - say, around 1895 - there
were essentially none. So we could go back to the practices
of those days, when every maker's crank had a different
pedal thread, chain pitch varied from brand to brand, every
rim fit one brand of tire and vice versa...

My problem is that I began adult cycling at a time when most
parts were pretty compatible. Sure, you had to get the right
seatpost diameter to fit your frame, but brakes, levers,
derailleurs, shifters, chainrings, bottom brackets,
headsets, hubs and more were all pretty easy to replace. You
could easily mix and match, as long as you didn't buy French.

It's gotten a lot more complicated, and choices have gotten
more restricted, mostly because of chasing "improvements"
that most cyclists can't really feel. (How many times have
you heard someone complain that their bottom bracket spindle
isn't sufficiently rigid?)

It is what it is. I buy conservative, so I don't expect I'll
ever have to throw out a frame because I can't buy a bottom
bracket or headset; I'll be OK. And if some guy does have to
throw out a whiz-bang frame, he will have been a guy who
wants the next version of whiz-bang anyway.



" My problem is that I began adult cycling at a time when
most parts were pretty compatible. "

Your remembrance may not be exactly correct. Three threads of crank
extractor, more chainring formats, more handlebar/stem formats and so
on. Probably not that much worse than now but surely no better.
My memory may not be exactly correct. But as I said, I knew not to buy
certain components with French threads. (Our tandem does have TA cranks,
so I have to flip my crank extractor over, but that's simple enough.)

All the handlebars I ever used in those days could be swapped freely.
Any brake lever worked with any brake, any shift lever worked with any
derailleur. Any chain worked with any number of speeds greater than
three. When I changed from Atom (IIRC) freewheels to SunTour, I had to
borrow a remover - once. The worst complication I remember dealing with
was threaded brake shoes for caliper brakes, unthreaded for cantilevers.

As one tiny example: Long, long ago someone gave me a titanium bottom
bracket, square taper. I think they said it was intended for a track
bike. About ten years ago I took an old Reynolds 531 frame and built it
into a three speed, using (almost) entirely parts I had on hand. That
bottom bracket went right in, although I admit I was very lucky on the
chainline. Ditto on the headset and everything else. The only excess
creativity was in fitting fenders (rather low clearance) and the rear
rack (no bosses on the rear dropouts).

How many bottom bracket standards are there today? How many headset
standards? Seems to me it's more complicated than before. Heck, look at
the trouble Tom has sorting things out.
You didn't own a true French bike built before France ****-canned it's odd-ball standards and started selling ISO/British threaded/dimension bikes. Stems, crank dustcap thread, bars, headsets, tube diameter/derailleur claims, freewheel threading (on some French hubs) were all different. Post diameter was not 27.2 but was like 26.8 on my Simplex post, IIRC. Even the frame derailleur threading was different. I couldn't put a Campagnolo RD on my PX10 without tapping the hanger. The only thing you could swap were the groovy clamp-on downtube shifters, which I didn't need for my next bike which was built during the era of braze-on shift bosses.

Yes, there are too many BB standards, although unlike the old French/Italian/British/Swiss issue, its pretty much just buying the right OTC bearing cartridge and squeezing it in. The PF (pressfit) formats are the most tenuous, but if supplies ran out, the PF BBs use their own press fit bearings that can be replaced, although they are harder to find and replace. Standard BB30 bearings (6806) can be bought by the box off Alibaba. https://tinyurl.com/ya5wg7yh If I were buying a new bike, I'd get a threaded BB. I like the el cheap-o external Shimano BBs, plus I own all the wrenches (which also work on Shimano center-lock discs). BTW, I have bikes that are BB30/BB90 and PF86, and they are all quiet -- at least as quiet as my threaded BBs, so I'm not a hater.

I bought a cheap Motobecane Mirage frame from Bike Island and built my son his going-to-college road bike out of parts I had in a box. Modern bikes go together way faster than the olden days. That frame has a threaded BB an internal HS, 9sp. In the time it took me to pull my olde-tyme NR cranks, remove the BB adjustable cup and repack bearings, I can screw in new outboard bearings, reinstall the cranks and drink two beers. Even squeezing BB30 bearings is way faster. Dropping bearings into HS takes like ten minutes. I like the modern era.

-- Jay Beattie.
Ahhh.... the good old days. I replaced the internal routed cables of my 2014 Canyon CF SLX for the first time. Lengthen the outer cables and putting on new bar tape took most of the time by far as it would with an bike from the last century. I also do like the modern era.

Lou
Although the one thing I hate on new bikes is fishing internal cables/housing, although replacing cables/housing is easy, original installation can be a pain.

-- Jay Beattie

Initial installation was easy. The frameset came with guide liners installed. I would expect that every new frameset for internal cable routing comes with guide liners installed.

Lou

Until the rider opens the carton, yanks out all that crap
and then drops it off here for assembly.

It would be except I'm sure that Andrew knows the trick - you use the long plastic thread from a trimmer/brushcutter and a J bend spoke and it only take minutes to thread a new inner cable through and use that to push an outer cable through and then remove the inner and replace it with the proper inner. And you can overcharge the customer all to hell from forcing the effort upon you. Sometimes you can do it all with a length of inner cable if the run isn't too long.

On 12/17/2020 5:50 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, December 16, 2020 at 11:56:09 PM UTC-8, wrote:
Op donderdag 17 december 2020 om 00:31:28 UTC+1 schreef AMuzi:
On 12/16/2020 3:27 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op woensdag 16 december 2020 om 16:18:13 UTC+1 schreef jbeattie:
On Wednesday, December 16, 2020 at 1:40:29 AM UTC-8, wrote:
Op woensdag 16 december 2020 om 05:07:41 UTC+1 schreef jbeattie:
On Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 6:21:46 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/15/2020 3:07 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/15/2020 12:25 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/14/2020 11:51 PM, John B. wrote:

Actually I should have addressed this to Frank, several
messages ago,
but why should there be "standards" for bicycles? There
aren't
"standards" for autos. You can't put a 1942 Dodge
differential in a
1942 Chevrolet, or a piston from a 2019 Honda in a
Mercedes, nor, for
that matter, a Harley cylinder on a Yamaha or BMW.
So, why bicycles?

I suppose we don't have to have standards. I'm sure that in
the very early days of bicycling - say, around 1895 - there
were essentially none. So we could go back to the practices
of those days, when every maker's crank had a different
pedal thread, chain pitch varied from brand to brand, every
rim fit one brand of tire and vice versa...

My problem is that I began adult cycling at a time when most
parts were pretty compatible. Sure, you had to get the right
seatpost diameter to fit your frame, but brakes, levers,
derailleurs, shifters, chainrings, bottom brackets,
headsets, hubs and more were all pretty easy to replace. You
could easily mix and match, as long as you didn't buy French.

It's gotten a lot more complicated, and choices have gotten
more restricted, mostly because of chasing "improvements"
that most cyclists can't really feel. (How many times have
you heard someone complain that their bottom bracket spindle
isn't sufficiently rigid?)

It is what it is. I buy conservative, so I don't expect I'll
ever have to throw out a frame because I can't buy a bottom
bracket or headset; I'll be OK. And if some guy does have to
throw out a whiz-bang frame, he will have been a guy who
wants the next version of whiz-bang anyway.



" My problem is that I began adult cycling at a time when
most parts were pretty compatible. "

Your remembrance may not be exactly correct. Three threads of crank
extractor, more chainring formats, more handlebar/stem formats and so
on. Probably not that much worse than now but surely no better.
My memory may not be exactly correct. But as I said, I knew not to buy
certain components with French threads. (Our tandem does have TA cranks,
so I have to flip my crank extractor over, but that's simple enough.)

All the handlebars I ever used in those days could be swapped freely.
Any brake lever worked with any brake, any shift lever worked with any
derailleur. Any chain worked with any number of speeds greater than
three. When I changed from Atom (IIRC) freewheels to SunTour, I had to
borrow a remover - once. The worst complication I remember dealing with
was threaded brake shoes for caliper brakes, unthreaded for cantilevers.

As one tiny example: Long, long ago someone gave me a titanium bottom
bracket, square taper. I think they said it was intended for a track
bike. About ten years ago I took an old Reynolds 531 frame and built it
into a three speed, using (almost) entirely parts I had on hand. That
bottom bracket went right in, although I admit I was very lucky on the
chainline. Ditto on the headset and everything else. The only excess
creativity was in fitting fenders (rather low clearance) and the rear
rack (no bosses on the rear dropouts).

How many bottom bracket standards are there today? How many headset
standards? Seems to me it's more complicated than before. Heck, look at
the trouble Tom has sorting things out.
You didn't own a true French bike built before France ****-canned it's odd-ball standards and started selling ISO/British threaded/dimension bikes. Stems, crank dustcap thread, bars, headsets, tube diameter/derailleur claims, freewheel threading (on some French hubs) were all different. Post diameter was not 27.2 but was like 26.8 on my Simplex post, IIRC. Even the frame derailleur threading was different. I couldn't put a Campagnolo RD on my PX10 without tapping the hanger. The only thing you could swap were the groovy clamp-on downtube shifters, which I didn't need for my next bike which was built during the era of braze-on shift bosses.

Yes, there are too many BB standards, although unlike the old French/Italian/British/Swiss issue, its pretty much just buying the right OTC bearing cartridge and squeezing it in. The PF (pressfit) formats are the most tenuous, but if supplies ran out, the PF BBs use their own press fit bearings that can be replaced, although they are harder to find and replace. Standard BB30 bearings (6806) can be bought by the box off Alibaba. https://tinyurl.com/ya5wg7yh If I were buying a new bike, I'd get a threaded BB. I like the el cheap-o external Shimano BBs, plus I own all the wrenches (which also work on Shimano center-lock discs). BTW, I have bikes that are BB30/BB90 and PF86, and they are all quiet -- at least as quiet as my threaded BBs, so I'm not a hater.

I bought a cheap Motobecane Mirage frame from Bike Island and built my son his going-to-college road bike out of parts I had in a box. Modern bikes go together way faster than the olden days. That frame has a threaded BB an internal HS, 9sp. In the time it took me to pull my olde-tyme NR cranks, remove the BB adjustable cup and repack bearings, I can screw in new outboard bearings, reinstall the cranks and drink two beers. Even squeezing BB30 bearings is way faster. Dropping bearings into HS takes like ten minutes. I like the modern era.

-- Jay Beattie.
Ahhh.... the good old days. I replaced the internal routed cables of my 2014 Canyon CF SLX for the first time. Lengthen the outer cables and putting on new bar tape took most of the time by far as it would with an bike from the last century. I also do like the modern era.

Lou
Although the one thing I hate on new bikes is fishing internal cables/housing, although replacing cables/housing is easy, original installation can be a pain.

-- Jay Beattie

Initial installation was easy. The frameset came with guide liners installed. I would expect that every new frameset for internal cable routing comes with guide liners installed.

Lou

Until the rider opens the carton, yanks out all that crap
and then drops it off here for assembly.

It would be except I'm sure that Andrew knows the trick - you use the long plastic thread from a trimmer/brushcutter and a J bend spoke and it only take minutes to thread a new inner cable through and use that to push an outer cable through and then remove the inner and replace it with the proper inner. And you can overcharge the customer all to hell from forcing the effort upon you. Sometimes you can do it all with a length of inner cable if the run isn't too long.


In theory, sure.
What with the random crud inside molded carbon frames, that
could be ten minutes. It could also be two hours.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thursday, December 17, 2020 at 5:14:26 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/17/2020 5:50 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, December 16, 2020 at 11:56:09 PM UTC-8, wrote:
Op donderdag 17 december 2020 om 00:31:28 UTC+1 schreef AMuzi:
On 12/16/2020 3:27 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op woensdag 16 december 2020 om 16:18:13 UTC+1 schreef jbeattie:
On Wednesday, December 16, 2020 at 1:40:29 AM UTC-8, wrote:
Op woensdag 16 december 2020 om 05:07:41 UTC+1 schreef jbeattie:
On Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 6:21:46 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/15/2020 3:07 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/15/2020 12:25 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/14/2020 11:51 PM, John B. wrote:

Actually I should have addressed this to Frank, several
messages ago,
but why should there be "standards" for bicycles? There
aren't
"standards" for autos. You can't put a 1942 Dodge
differential in a
1942 Chevrolet, or a piston from a 2019 Honda in a
Mercedes, nor, for
that matter, a Harley cylinder on a Yamaha or BMW.
So, why bicycles?

I suppose we don't have to have standards. I'm sure that in
the very early days of bicycling - say, around 1895 - there
were essentially none. So we could go back to the practices
of those days, when every maker's crank had a different
pedal thread, chain pitch varied from brand to brand, every
rim fit one brand of tire and vice versa...

My problem is that I began adult cycling at a time when most
parts were pretty compatible. Sure, you had to get the right
seatpost diameter to fit your frame, but brakes, levers,
derailleurs, shifters, chainrings, bottom brackets,
headsets, hubs and more were all pretty easy to replace. You
could easily mix and match, as long as you didn't buy French.

It's gotten a lot more complicated, and choices have gotten
more restricted, mostly because of chasing "improvements"
that most cyclists can't really feel. (How many times have
you heard someone complain that their bottom bracket spindle
isn't sufficiently rigid?)

It is what it is. I buy conservative, so I don't expect I'll
ever have to throw out a frame because I can't buy a bottom
bracket or headset; I'll be OK. And if some guy does have to
throw out a whiz-bang frame, he will have been a guy who
wants the next version of whiz-bang anyway.



" My problem is that I began adult cycling at a time when
most parts were pretty compatible. "

Your remembrance may not be exactly correct. Three threads of crank
extractor, more chainring formats, more handlebar/stem formats and so
on. Probably not that much worse than now but surely no better.
My memory may not be exactly correct. But as I said, I knew not to buy
certain components with French threads. (Our tandem does have TA cranks,
so I have to flip my crank extractor over, but that's simple enough.)

All the handlebars I ever used in those days could be swapped freely.
Any brake lever worked with any brake, any shift lever worked with any
derailleur. Any chain worked with any number of speeds greater than
three. When I changed from Atom (IIRC) freewheels to SunTour, I had to
borrow a remover - once. The worst complication I remember dealing with
was threaded brake shoes for caliper brakes, unthreaded for cantilevers.

As one tiny example: Long, long ago someone gave me a titanium bottom
bracket, square taper. I think they said it was intended for a track
bike. About ten years ago I took an old Reynolds 531 frame and built it
into a three speed, using (almost) entirely parts I had on hand. That
bottom bracket went right in, although I admit I was very lucky on the
chainline. Ditto on the headset and everything else. The only excess
creativity was in fitting fenders (rather low clearance) and the rear
rack (no bosses on the rear dropouts).

How many bottom bracket standards are there today? How many headset
standards? Seems to me it's more complicated than before. Heck, look at
the trouble Tom has sorting things out.
You didn't own a true French bike built before France ****-canned it's odd-ball standards and started selling ISO/British threaded/dimension bikes. Stems, crank dustcap thread, bars, headsets, tube diameter/derailleur claims, freewheel threading (on some French hubs) were all different. Post diameter was not 27.2 but was like 26.8 on my Simplex post, IIRC. Even the frame derailleur threading was different. I couldn't put a Campagnolo RD on my PX10 without tapping the hanger. The only thing you could swap were the groovy clamp-on downtube shifters, which I didn't need for my next bike which was built during the era of braze-on shift bosses.

Yes, there are too many BB standards, although unlike the old French/Italian/British/Swiss issue, its pretty much just buying the right OTC bearing cartridge and squeezing it in. The PF (pressfit) formats are the most tenuous, but if supplies ran out, the PF BBs use their own press fit bearings that can be replaced, although they are harder to find and replace. Standard BB30 bearings (6806) can be bought by the box off Alibaba. https://tinyurl.com/ya5wg7yh If I were buying a new bike, I'd get a threaded BB. I like the el cheap-o external Shimano BBs, plus I own all the wrenches (which also work on Shimano center-lock discs). BTW, I have bikes that are BB30/BB90 and PF86, and they are all quiet -- at least as quiet as my threaded BBs, so I'm not a hater.

I bought a cheap Motobecane Mirage frame from Bike Island and built my son his going-to-college road bike out of parts I had in a box. Modern bikes go together way faster than the olden days. That frame has a threaded BB an internal HS, 9sp. In the time it took me to pull my olde-tyme NR cranks, remove the BB adjustable cup and repack bearings, I can screw in new outboard bearings, reinstall the cranks and drink two beers. Even squeezing BB30 bearings is way faster. Dropping bearings into HS takes like ten minutes. I like the modern era.

-- Jay Beattie.
Ahhh.... the good old days. I replaced the internal routed cables of my 2014 Canyon CF SLX for the first time. Lengthen the outer cables and putting on new bar tape took most of the time by far as it would with an bike from the last century. I also do like the modern era.

Lou
Although the one thing I hate on new bikes is fishing internal cables/housing, although replacing cables/housing is easy, original installation can be a pain.

-- Jay Beattie

Initial installation was easy. The frameset came with guide liners installed. I would expect that every new frameset for internal cable routing comes with guide liners installed.

Lou

Until the rider opens the carton, yanks out all that crap
and then drops it off here for assembly.

It would be except I'm sure that Andrew knows the trick - you use the long plastic thread from a trimmer/brushcutter and a J bend spoke and it only take minutes to thread a new inner cable through and use that to push an outer cable through and then remove the inner and replace it with the proper inner. And you can overcharge the customer all to hell from forcing the effort upon you. Sometimes you can do it all with a length of inner cable if the run isn't too long.

In theory, sure.
What with the random crud inside molded carbon frames, that
could be ten minutes. It could also be two hours.

Well, I can't answer to that since all of my carbon bikes were properly made: The Treks are molded smooth inside in two sided high pressure molds and the Colnago was made in a similar fashion I suppose since it too is perfectly smooth inside with no balloon particles.