STUDY PROVES TOM KUNICH SPECTACULARLY RIGHT. AGAIN.

On 1/1/2021 11:22 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, December 31, 2020 at 9:54:31 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Thu, 31 Dec 2020 09:48:46 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:

In case you are unaware of it you moron - illegal activities producing
income are not taxed and hence are not part of the GDP.
Wouldn't it be better if you would research your allegations before
you recycle them in this newsgroup?

Taxation of illegal income in the United States
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_of_illegal_income_in_the_United_States
...a person's taxable income will generally be subject
to the same Federal income tax rules, regardless of
whether the income was obtained legally or illegally.

By coincidence, I just installed Turbot Tacks 2020 on my PC in
preparation for lying and cheating on my income taxes. Despite kidney
stone surgery, a pandemic, CZU wildfire, a 2 week evacuation, PG&E
power shutoff, and a really awful election, I may have accidentally
made a profit in 2020.

Since the illegal drug trade and other illegal activities are not probable because they deal in cash and so income cannot be proven exactly how to you suppose the government is going to tax these things?


For GDP it's 'estimated', for tax purposes it's 'imputed'.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

with John B wrote:
On Thu, 31 Dec 2020 16:20:52 +0200, Eric Pozharski
wrote:
with John B wrote:
On Wed, 30 Dec 2020 15:16:40 +0200, Eric Pozharski
wrote:
with John B wrote:
On Tue, 29 Dec 2020 13:46:44 +0200, Eric Pozharski
wrote:
with John B wrote:
On Mon, 28 Dec 2020 11:22:48 +0200, Eric Pozharski
wrote:
with John B wrote:
On Sun, 27 Dec 2020 14:35:13 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:
On Saturday, December 26, 2020 at 5:40:35 PM UTC-8, John B.
wrote:
On Sat, 26 Dec 2020 11:32:11 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:
On Friday, December 25, 2020 at 5:02:28 PM UTC-8, John B.
wrote:
On Fri, 25 Dec 2020 09:20:33 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:
On Thursday, December 24, 2020 at 7:27:21 PM UTC-8, Ralph
Barone wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/24/2020 6:00 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, December 24, 2020 at 8:01:30 AM UTC-8,
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/23/2020 9:37 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, December 23, 2020 at 3:09:49 PM UTC-8,
AMuzi wrote:
On 12/23/2020 4:27 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski writes:
On 12/23/2020 2:04 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski writes:

"Democrat Extremists" "take over the world" Tommy boy, you are
going right round the bend. I read that Communist China's
economy is forecast to become larger then the U.S. by 2028.
Better you should worry about the Communists taking over.
(I probably shouldn't enter this death-match, but, what a
coincidence, here it comes anyway.) I'm binge listening to
certain podcast right now, and just yesterday I've consumed
piece on GDP. Turns out, GDP doesn't mean ****. It's just
fancy number that is
GDP is simply one way to measure of the market value of all the
final goods and services produced in a specific time period,,
*SKIP*
get. Consider this, let's assume one country includes business of
GDP is a measurement of what happens, not what someone thinks should
have happened. For example, if one calculated a GDP for the state of
Nevada where gambling and prostitution are legal, and openly engaged
in then of course it is include
Now, may I have, from your perspective, reasonable explanation how
GDP is found out (let's not fall for 'made up', that would be
unreasonable or too early).
*SKIP* [ copoius wikipedia quote ]
Take your pick.
Well, I can respond with quotes too. Here comes what IMF has to say
about it, SNA2008, subsection 3.96 "Illegal actions":
Illegal actions that fit the characteristics of transactions
(notably the characteristic that there is mutual agreement
between the parties) are treated the same way as legal actions.
*SKIP*
I have two options how this GDP thingie could be pulled off. First
is taking someone's more or less educated more or less biased more or
less influenced guess (IOW -- 'expert opinion') and roll with it.
Other option is picking something at random (like literally) and roll
with it. Care to invent more options?
But what is incorrect with the IMF's theory?

There's nothing wrong with IMF or theory (rather methodology), that's
not the point. Question is, what are data sources that GDP is derived
from? I can see: more or less regulated (required and voluntary)
bookeeping reporting, taxes moving to and fro (yes, sometimes taxes flow
backwards, like literally), and unknown amount of guesswork. Care to
add more? Unfortunately, I can't point, right now, at what SNA2008 has
to say about it -- to much work.

OTOH (just thought about it right now), goes like this. Whenever polls
are thrown at GUM(tm) there's always confidence levels presented too
(how to interpret them is different question we don't touch right now).
Now, what are confidence levels of any particular GDP? I've never seen
one. Have you? I found two options: one is the process of figuring
out GDP is so convoluted that it disables any meaning of confidence
levels attached, or there's straightforward confidence level and it
renders GDP meaningles. Care to add more options?

*CUT*

--
Torvalds' goal for Linux is very simple: World Domination
Stallman's goal for GNU is even simpler: Freedom

On Fri, 01 Jan 2021 07:58:19 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Fri, 1 Jan 2021 09:52:25 +0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
wrote:

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Thu, 31 Dec 2020 09:48:46 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:

In case you are unaware of it you moron - illegal activities producing
income are not taxed and hence are not part of the GDP.

Wouldn't it be better if you would research your allegations before
you recycle them in this newsgroup?

Taxation of illegal income in the United States
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_of_illegal_income_in_the_United_States
...a person's taxable income will generally be subject
to the same Federal income tax rules, regardless of
whether the income was obtained legally or illegally.

By coincidence, I just installed Turbot Tacks 2020 on my PC in
preparation for lying and cheating on my income taxes. Despite kidney
stone surgery, a pandemic, CZU wildfire, a 2 week evacuation, PG&E
power shutoff, and a really awful election, I may have accidentally
made a profit in 2020.

Don’t do it again... :-)

There was a time when I considered it my life goal to commit an
original crime. That's a crime that hasn't been done before or
possibly not even considered a crime. I had some really good ideas,
but changed my mind when I realized that I couldn't tell anyone about
it. Sigh... A life of crime isn't what it used to be.

70 pardons, 24 commutations, and growing:
"List of people granted executive clemency by Donald Trump"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_granted_executive_clemency_by_Donal d_Trump

But he's got a way to go to become Champ. FDR pardoned nearly 3
thousand, Truman nearly 2,000, Eisenhower and Wilson over 1,000 and 15
more with scores over 100.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 1 Jan 2021 09:22:47 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:

Since the illegal drug trade and other illegal activities
are not probable because they deal in cash and so income
cannot be proven exactly how to you suppose the government
is going to tax these things?

They just confiscate the money or the property. It's called "civil
forfeiture" or "assets forfeiture".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_forfeiture_in_the_United_States
https://www.google.com/search?q=civil+or+asset+forfeiture

Part 9. Criminal Investigation
Chapter 7. Asset Seizure and Forfeiture
Section 13. Title 26 Seizures for Forfeiture
https://www.irs.gov/irm/part9/irm_09-007-013

Trump Signs New Law To Protect Innocent Small Business Owners From IRS
Seizures
https://www.forbes.com/sites/nicksibilla/2019/07/10/trump-signs-new-law-to-protect-innocent-small-business-owners-from-irs-seizures/

In some cases, it's not even necessary for a crime to have been
committed. I know of one case where all charges were dropped, but the
arresting agency still kept the seized property. When the case
finally went before a judge, the judge invented a new principle called
"crimes committed by property". Sometimes, the seized assets are sold
by the arresting agency before a judge or jury reaches a verdict on
the crime. If something you own is suspected of having been purchased
with funds potentially derived from the commission of a crime, the
police can confiscate the property, and never bother bring charges for
the crime.



--
Jeff Liebermann
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 1/1/2021 5:10 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 01 Jan 2021 07:58:19 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Fri, 1 Jan 2021 09:52:25 +0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
wrote:

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Thu, 31 Dec 2020 09:48:46 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:

In case you are unaware of it you moron - illegal activities producing
income are not taxed and hence are not part of the GDP.

Wouldn't it be better if you would research your allegations before
you recycle them in this newsgroup?

Taxation of illegal income in the United States
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_of_illegal_income_in_the_United_States
...a person's taxable income will generally be subject
to the same Federal income tax rules, regardless of
whether the income was obtained legally or illegally.

By coincidence, I just installed Turbot Tacks 2020 on my PC in
preparation for lying and cheating on my income taxes. Despite kidney
stone surgery, a pandemic, CZU wildfire, a 2 week evacuation, PG&E
power shutoff, and a really awful election, I may have accidentally
made a profit in 2020.

Don’t do it again... :-)

There was a time when I considered it my life goal to commit an
original crime. That's a crime that hasn't been done before or
possibly not even considered a crime. I had some really good ideas,
but changed my mind when I realized that I couldn't tell anyone about
it. Sigh... A life of crime isn't what it used to be.

70 pardons, 24 commutations, and growing:
"List of people granted executive clemency by Donald Trump"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_granted_executive_clemency_by_Donal d_Trump

But he's got a way to go to become Champ. FDR pardoned nearly 3
thousand, Truman nearly 2,000, Eisenhower and Wilson over 1,000 and 15
more with scores over 100.


Although I've bitched as much as anyone at some of them
(including among this month's cast of characters) you have
to admit that Presidents of every stripe do rectify
miscarriages of justice, perhaps done within the letter of
the law, in about a third of them.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Fri, 01 Jan 2021 09:22:47 -0800, Tom Kunich scribed:


Since the illegal drug trade and other illegal activities are not
probable because they deal in cash and so income cannot be proven
exactly how to you suppose the government is going to tax these things?

Self declaration to prevent future interest/investigations from the tax
man looking at unexplained income.

hint, many 'legal' business deal in cash.

On Fri, 01 Jan 2021 15:39:38 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Fri, 1 Jan 2021 09:22:47 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:

Since the illegal drug trade and other illegal activities
are not probable because they deal in cash and so income
cannot be proven exactly how to you suppose the government
is going to tax these things?

They just confiscate the money or the property. It's called "civil
forfeiture" or "assets forfeiture".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_forfeiture_in_the_United_States
https://www.google.com/search?q=civil+or+asset+forfeiture

Part 9. Criminal Investigation
Chapter 7. Asset Seizure and Forfeiture
Section 13. Title 26 Seizures for Forfeiture
https://www.irs.gov/irm/part9/irm_09-007-013

Trump Signs New Law To Protect Innocent Small Business Owners From IRS
Seizures
https://www.forbes.com/sites/nicksibilla/2019/07/10/trump-signs-new-law-to-protect-innocent-small-business-owners-from-irs-seizures/

In some cases, it's not even necessary for a crime to have been
committed. I know of one case where all charges were dropped, but the
arresting agency still kept the seized property. When the case
finally went before a judge, the judge invented a new principle called
"crimes committed by property". Sometimes, the seized assets are sold
by the arresting agency before a judge or jury reaches a verdict on
the crime. If something you own is suspected of having been purchased
with funds potentially derived from the commission of a crime, the
police can confiscate the property, and never bother bring charges for
the crime.

But, to some extent, isn't that true in most places? If you buy a car
which is later determined to have been stolen that you don't get to
keep the car just because you claim to have bought it in good faith.
Do you?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 01 Jan 2021 23:33:47 +0200, Eric Pozharski
wrote:

with John B wrote:
On Thu, 31 Dec 2020 16:20:52 +0200, Eric Pozharski
wrote:
with John B wrote:
On Wed, 30 Dec 2020 15:16:40 +0200, Eric Pozharski
wrote:
with John B wrote:
On Tue, 29 Dec 2020 13:46:44 +0200, Eric Pozharski
wrote:
with John B wrote:
On Mon, 28 Dec 2020 11:22:48 +0200, Eric Pozharski
wrote:
with John B wrote:
On Sun, 27 Dec 2020 14:35:13 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:
On Saturday, December 26, 2020 at 5:40:35 PM UTC-8, John B.
wrote:
On Sat, 26 Dec 2020 11:32:11 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:
On Friday, December 25, 2020 at 5:02:28 PM UTC-8, John B.
wrote:
On Fri, 25 Dec 2020 09:20:33 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:
On Thursday, December 24, 2020 at 7:27:21 PM UTC-8, Ralph
Barone wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/24/2020 6:00 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, December 24, 2020 at 8:01:30 AM UTC-8,
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/23/2020 9:37 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, December 23, 2020 at 3:09:49 PM UTC-8,
AMuzi wrote:
On 12/23/2020 4:27 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski writes:
On 12/23/2020 2:04 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski writes:

"Democrat Extremists" "take over the world" Tommy boy, you are
going right round the bend. I read that Communist China's
economy is forecast to become larger then the U.S. by 2028.
Better you should worry about the Communists taking over.
(I probably shouldn't enter this death-match, but, what a
coincidence, here it comes anyway.) I'm binge listening to
certain podcast right now, and just yesterday I've consumed
piece on GDP. Turns out, GDP doesn't mean ****. It's just
fancy number that is
GDP is simply one way to measure of the market value of all the
final goods and services produced in a specific time period,,
*SKIP*
get. Consider this, let's assume one country includes business of
GDP is a measurement of what happens, not what someone thinks should
have happened. For example, if one calculated a GDP for the state of
Nevada where gambling and prostitution are legal, and openly engaged
in then of course it is include
Now, may I have, from your perspective, reasonable explanation how
GDP is found out (let's not fall for 'made up', that would be
unreasonable or too early).
*SKIP* [ copoius wikipedia quote ]
Take your pick.
Well, I can respond with quotes too. Here comes what IMF has to say
about it, SNA2008, subsection 3.96 "Illegal actions":
Illegal actions that fit the characteristics of transactions
(notably the characteristic that there is mutual agreement
between the parties) are treated the same way as legal actions.
*SKIP*
I have two options how this GDP thingie could be pulled off. First
is taking someone's more or less educated more or less biased more or
less influenced guess (IOW -- 'expert opinion') and roll with it.
Other option is picking something at random (like literally) and roll
with it. Care to invent more options?
But what is incorrect with the IMF's theory?

There's nothing wrong with IMF or theory (rather methodology), that's
not the point. Question is, what are data sources that GDP is derived
from? I can see: more or less regulated (required and voluntary)
bookeeping reporting, taxes moving to and fro (yes, sometimes taxes flow
backwards, like literally), and unknown amount of guesswork. Care to
add more? Unfortunately, I can't point, right now, at what SNA2008 has
to say about it -- to much work.

OTOH (just thought about it right now), goes like this. Whenever polls
are thrown at GUM(tm) there's always confidence levels presented too
(how to interpret them is different question we don't touch right now).
Now, what are confidence levels of any particular GDP? I've never seen
one. Have you? I found two options: one is the process of figuring
out GDP is so convoluted that it disables any meaning of confidence
levels attached, or there's straightforward confidence level and it
renders GDP meaningles. Care to add more options?

*CUT*

I'm not sure what you are talking about. One must assume that every
agency that calculates GDP does it by some method that satisfies their
objectives.

Perhaps you are missing the point that GDP is simply a means of
assessing something in contrast to something else.

Rather strained example. My wife is Thai and the traditional
dimensions of a "Panung", a country woman's lower garment, is one arm
length wide by two arm lengths long, and if you ever visit a Thai
village where hand woven silk is still made you will see the women
measuring cloth the same way.

Now, I'm sure that doesn't make much sense to you and you'd want the
measurement to be in meters and centimeters or feet and inches, but it
makes perfect sense to the ladies making the stuff and the collectible
ones buying it.

Equally, whatever method is used to measure GDP as long as it is
applied equally to all areas being assessed it is a valid measurement.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sat, 02 Jan 2021 10:25:20 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Fri, 01 Jan 2021 23:33:47 +0200, Eric Pozharski
wrote:

with John B wrote:
On Thu, 31 Dec 2020 16:20:52 +0200, Eric Pozharski
wrote:
with John B wrote:
On Wed, 30 Dec 2020 15:16:40 +0200, Eric Pozharski
wrote:
with John B wrote:
On Tue, 29 Dec 2020 13:46:44 +0200, Eric Pozharski
wrote:
with John B wrote:
On Mon, 28 Dec 2020 11:22:48 +0200, Eric Pozharski
wrote:
with John B wrote:
On Sun, 27 Dec 2020 14:35:13 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:
On Saturday, December 26, 2020 at 5:40:35 PM UTC-8, John B.
wrote:
On Sat, 26 Dec 2020 11:32:11 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:
On Friday, December 25, 2020 at 5:02:28 PM UTC-8, John B.
wrote:
On Fri, 25 Dec 2020 09:20:33 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:
On Thursday, December 24, 2020 at 7:27:21 PM UTC-8, Ralph
Barone wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/24/2020 6:00 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, December 24, 2020 at 8:01:30 AM UTC-8,
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/23/2020 9:37 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, December 23, 2020 at 3:09:49 PM UTC-8,
AMuzi wrote:
On 12/23/2020 4:27 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski writes:
On 12/23/2020 2:04 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski writes:

"Democrat Extremists" "take over the world" Tommy boy, you are
going right round the bend. I read that Communist China's
economy is forecast to become larger then the U.S. by 2028.
Better you should worry about the Communists taking over.
(I probably shouldn't enter this death-match, but, what a
coincidence, here it comes anyway.) I'm binge listening to
certain podcast right now, and just yesterday I've consumed
piece on GDP. Turns out, GDP doesn't mean ****. It's just
fancy number that is
GDP is simply one way to measure of the market value of all the
final goods and services produced in a specific time period,,
*SKIP*
get. Consider this, let's assume one country includes business of
GDP is a measurement of what happens, not what someone thinks should
have happened. For example, if one calculated a GDP for the state of
Nevada where gambling and prostitution are legal, and openly engaged
in then of course it is include
Now, may I have, from your perspective, reasonable explanation how
GDP is found out (let's not fall for 'made up', that would be
unreasonable or too early).
*SKIP* [ copoius wikipedia quote ]
Take your pick.
Well, I can respond with quotes too. Here comes what IMF has to say
about it, SNA2008, subsection 3.96 "Illegal actions":
Illegal actions that fit the characteristics of transactions
(notably the characteristic that there is mutual agreement
between the parties) are treated the same way as legal actions.
*SKIP*
I have two options how this GDP thingie could be pulled off. First
is taking someone's more or less educated more or less biased more or
less influenced guess (IOW -- 'expert opinion') and roll with it.
Other option is picking something at random (like literally) and roll
with it. Care to invent more options?
But what is incorrect with the IMF's theory?

There's nothing wrong with IMF or theory (rather methodology), that's
not the point. Question is, what are data sources that GDP is derived
from? I can see: more or less regulated (required and voluntary)
bookeeping reporting, taxes moving to and fro (yes, sometimes taxes flow
backwards, like literally), and unknown amount of guesswork. Care to
add more? Unfortunately, I can't point, right now, at what SNA2008 has
to say about it -- to much work.

OTOH (just thought about it right now), goes like this. Whenever polls
are thrown at GUM(tm) there's always confidence levels presented too
(how to interpret them is different question we don't touch right now).
Now, what are confidence levels of any particular GDP? I've never seen
one. Have you? I found two options: one is the process of figuring
out GDP is so convoluted that it disables any meaning of confidence
levels attached, or there's straightforward confidence level and it
renders GDP meaningles. Care to add more options?

*CUT*

I'm not sure what you are talking about. One must assume that every
agency that calculates GDP does it by some method that satisfies their
objectives.

Perhaps you are missing the point that GDP is simply a means of
assessing something in contrast to something else.

Rather strained example. My wife is Thai and the traditional
dimensions of a "Panung", a country woman's lower garment, is one arm
length wide by two arm lengths long, and if you ever visit a Thai
village where hand woven silk is still made you will see the women
measuring cloth the same way.

Now, I'm sure that doesn't make much sense to you and you'd want the
measurement to be in meters and centimeters or feet and inches, but it
makes perfect sense to the ladies making the stuff and the collectible
ones buying it.

A misspelled word there "collectible" should have been spelled
"knowledgeable".


Equally, whatever method is used to measure GDP as long as it is
applied equally to all areas being assessed it is a valid measurement.
--
Cheers,

John B.

You're making a meal of something that is really simple. It doesn't matter a great deal what constitutes any nation's GDP as long as it is the fairly stable sum of known and accepted elements. It's the year to year comparison that matters. The absolute level of GDP is merely for bragging rights of one nation's dickswingers again another nation's cleavage-exposers. Changes to GDP calculations with international acceptance -- that is, with somewhere near the same elements as everybody else, calculated and handled in somewhere near the same manner -- are usually widely discussed in academic and governmental macro-economics circles, and nothing rash is likely to happen. It is not a precision tool, and not intended to be a precision tool, though long practice has made it give a surprising range of information to the informed, and good leads (sometimes) to optimal policy variations. Macro-economics is in any event a subject that obsessives should give a wide berth, but GDP is so well understood that it is one of the easier elements of macro when it comes to swallowing compound uncertainties. Confidence levels around numbers of the nature of GDP, as explained above, fall somewhere between ivory tower arrogance and simple straightforward ignorance in comprehending the nature of the GDP calculation.

Here's another for your collection of unknowns and guesstimates in GDP calculations: What is the the size and nature of the moonlight economy (off the records, cash) of gardeners and ad hoc servants and artisans, etc?

The precision instrument that you want GDP to be already exists. It is the National Input-Output Table, in its modern version fine-tuned almost to perfection by my old teacher Wassily Leontief. Read up about his work and you'll see the National Table answers all your question that GDP cannot answer because it is not designed or constructed to answer those questions.
..
Andre Jute
Good enough for government work
..
On Saturday, January 2, 2021 at 2:33:17 AM UTC, Eric Pozharski wrote:
OTOH (just thought about it right now), goes like this. Whenever polls
are thrown at GUM(tm) there's always confidence levels presented too
(how to interpret them is different question we don't touch right now).
Now, what are confidence levels of any particular GDP? I've never seen
one. Have you? I found two options: one is the process of figuring
out GDP is so convoluted that it disables any meaning of confidence
levels attached, or there's straightforward confidence level and it
renders GDP meaningles. Care to add more options?