Bike weight and climbing.

On 1/28/2021 3:59 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Lou Holtman writes:

Op donderdag 28 januari 2021 om 20:54:24 UTC+1 schreef :
On Wednesday, January 27, 2021 at 10:43:48 AM UTC-8,
wrote:
Op woensdag 27 januari 2021 om 19:28:16 UTC+1 schreef :
On Wednesday, January 27, 2021 at 12:54:59 AM UTC-8,
wrote:
Op woensdag 27 januari 2021 om 00:13:05 UTC+1 schreef Axel Reichert:
Roger Merriman writes:

Power to weight clearly matters though I suspect that power is the
most important
On the flats: Power. In the mountains: Power to weight. So
in theory the
Tour de France should always be won by the heaviest rider from the
top-most power to weight bracket. (-:

Break-even is when during a tour you spent the same energy propelling
you forward as lifting you upwards. This depends a little bit on your
speed in flat terrain, but as a rule of thumb it is
somewhere between 10
to 15 m climbing per kilometer, or 1 to 1.5 % "average" grade. Below
that, it is "flat" and W trumps, above, it is mountainous and W/kg
trumps.

Axel
That is just theory. TdF is not a time trial. On the flat a GC
rider gets a lot of help from his teammates. In the mountains
not so much. And then there is tactics.
Axel doesn't have a theory, he is simply stating fact. On the
flats absolutely power gives absolute speed. In climbing the
power to weight ratio gives climbing speed. Remember Mario
Cipollini? He was an absolute monster and yet he won most
sprints that he contested. His power to weight ratio was so low
that on the slightest climb he was immediately off the back. The
reason that modern racers with less power to weight ratio are
winning is because they can sustain that power output over
longer periods so that the real climbers simply run out of power
and their p/w falls off. Exactly why would you argue simple
physics?
I don't argue simple physics, I argue who will likely to win a race/TdF.
Then you ought to make a lot of money betting on races.

No you can hardly predict that at the start of a race just by looking
at power and weight numbers. That was my point. What I do know is that
to win the TdF you have:
- to be in shape (duh),
- able to recover quickly,
- able to stay focus 3 weeks on a row,
- handle the pressure,
- able to ride a good time trial,
- have a good team,
- have a bit of luck to stay out of crashes,
- good power to weight ratio.
- etc.

To win the Vuelta (Tour of Spain) you have to be a good climber.

If you *could* predict the result of a bike race, or any athletic event,
just by reading stats, then it wouldn't be much fun to watch, and they
would have to change the rules. It's evolution in action: Sporting
outcomes tend to resemble the orbit of Pluto -- predictable, but not too
perfectly.


No rational man would have bet Roger Pingeon for the 1967
Tour. But after a series of catastrophes, he actually won.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 1/28/2021 4:55 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jan 2021 16:59:04 -0500, Radey Shouman
wrote:

Lou Holtman writes:

Op donderdag 28 januari 2021 om 20:54:24 UTC+1 schreef :
On Wednesday, January 27, 2021 at 10:43:48 AM UTC-8,
wrote:
Op woensdag 27 januari 2021 om 19:28:16 UTC+1 schreef :
On Wednesday, January 27, 2021 at 12:54:59 AM UTC-8,
wrote:
Op woensdag 27 januari 2021 om 00:13:05 UTC+1 schreef Axel Reichert:
Roger Merriman writes:

Power to weight clearly matters though I suspect that power is the
most important
On the flats: Power. In the mountains: Power to weight. So
in theory the
Tour de France should always be won by the heaviest rider from the
top-most power to weight bracket. (-:

Break-even is when during a tour you spent the same energy propelling
you forward as lifting you upwards. This depends a little bit on your
speed in flat terrain, but as a rule of thumb it is
somewhere between 10
to 15 m climbing per kilometer, or 1 to 1.5 % "average" grade. Below
that, it is "flat" and W trumps, above, it is mountainous and W/kg
trumps.

Axel
That is just theory. TdF is not a time trial. On the flat a GC
rider gets a lot of help from his teammates. In the mountains
not so much. And then there is tactics.
Axel doesn't have a theory, he is simply stating fact. On the
flats absolutely power gives absolute speed. In climbing the
power to weight ratio gives climbing speed. Remember Mario
Cipollini? He was an absolute monster and yet he won most
sprints that he contested. His power to weight ratio was so low
that on the slightest climb he was immediately off the back. The
reason that modern racers with less power to weight ratio are
winning is because they can sustain that power output over
longer periods so that the real climbers simply run out of power
and their p/w falls off. Exactly why would you argue simple
physics?
I don't argue simple physics, I argue who will likely to win a race/TdF.
Then you ought to make a lot of money betting on races.

No you can hardly predict that at the start of a race just by looking
at power and weight numbers. That was my point. What I do know is that
to win the TdF you have:
- to be in shape (duh),
- able to recover quickly,
- able to stay focus 3 weeks on a row,
- handle the pressure,
- able to ride a good time trial,
- have a good team,
- have a bit of luck to stay out of crashes,
- good power to weight ratio.
- etc.

To win the Vuelta (Tour of Spain) you have to be a good climber.

If you *could* predict the result of a bike race, or any athletic event,
just by reading stats, then it wouldn't be much fun to watch, and they
would have to change the rules. It's evolution in action: Sporting
outcomes tend to resemble the orbit of Pluto -- predictable, but not too
perfectly.

Actually you can bet on bicycle races. The Japanese Keirin bike races,
for example, were developed in Japan around 1948 for gambling
purposes.


Yes, that's true but we were discussing T d'F:
https://sports.ladbrokes.com/sport/c.../matches/today

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 1/28/2021 5:18 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, January 28, 2021 at 3:14:27 PM UTC-8, Radey Shouman wrote:
John B. writes:

On Thu, 28 Jan 2021 16:59:04 -0500, Radey Shouman
wrote:

Lou Holtman writes:

Op donderdag 28 januari 2021 om 20:54:24 UTC+1 schreef :
On Wednesday, January 27, 2021 at 10:43:48 AM UTC-8,
wrote:
Op woensdag 27 januari 2021 om 19:28:16 UTC+1 schreef :
On Wednesday, January 27, 2021 at 12:54:59 AM UTC-8,
wrote:
Op woensdag 27 januari 2021 om 00:13:05 UTC+1 schreef Axel Reichert:
Roger Merriman writes:

Power to weight clearly matters though I suspect that
power is the
most important
On the flats: Power. In the mountains: Power to weight. So
in theory the
Tour de France should always be won by the heaviest rider from the
top-most power to weight bracket. (-:

Break-even is when during a tour you spent the same energy
propelling
you forward as lifting you upwards. This depends a little
bit on your
speed in flat terrain, but as a rule of thumb it is
somewhere between 10
to 15 m climbing per kilometer, or 1 to 1.5 % "average"
grade. Below
that, it is "flat" and W trumps, above, it is mountainous and W/kg
trumps.

Axel
That is just theory. TdF is not a time trial. On the flat a GC
rider gets a lot of help from his teammates. In the mountains
not so much. And then there is tactics.
Axel doesn't have a theory, he is simply stating fact. On the
flats absolutely power gives absolute speed. In climbing the
power to weight ratio gives climbing speed. Remember Mario
Cipollini? He was an absolute monster and yet he won most
sprints that he contested. His power to weight ratio was so low
that on the slightest climb he was immediately off the back. The
reason that modern racers with less power to weight ratio are
winning is because they can sustain that power output over
longer periods so that the real climbers simply run out of power
and their p/w falls off. Exactly why would you argue simple
physics?
I don't argue simple physics, I argue who will likely to win a race/TdF.
Then you ought to make a lot of money betting on races.

No you can hardly predict that at the start of a race just by looking
at power and weight numbers. That was my point. What I do know is that
to win the TdF you have:
- to be in shape (duh),
- able to recover quickly,
- able to stay focus 3 weeks on a row,
- handle the pressure,
- able to ride a good time trial,
- have a good team,
- have a bit of luck to stay out of crashes,
- good power to weight ratio.
- etc.

To win the Vuelta (Tour of Spain) you have to be a good climber.

If you *could* predict the result of a bike race, or any athletic event,
just by reading stats, then it wouldn't be much fun to watch, and they
would have to change the rules. It's evolution in action: Sporting
outcomes tend to resemble the orbit of Pluto -- predictable, but not too
perfectly.

Actually you can bet on bicycle races. The Japanese Keirin bike races,
for example, were developed in Japan around 1948 for gambling
purposes.
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. If people only bet on
sure things gambling would hardly be a thing.
He's trying to insult everyone's intelligence. Keirin racing is a multimillion dollar sport.



So is le Tour.

The television rights alone are gargantuan, world's largest
spectator event.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thu, 28 Jan 2021 19:43:49 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 1/28/2021 4:55 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jan 2021 16:59:04 -0500, Radey Shouman
wrote:

Lou Holtman writes:

Op donderdag 28 januari 2021 om 20:54:24 UTC+1 schreef :
On Wednesday, January 27, 2021 at 10:43:48 AM UTC-8,
wrote:
Op woensdag 27 januari 2021 om 19:28:16 UTC+1 schreef :
On Wednesday, January 27, 2021 at 12:54:59 AM UTC-8,
wrote:
Op woensdag 27 januari 2021 om 00:13:05 UTC+1 schreef Axel Reichert:
Roger Merriman writes:

Power to weight clearly matters though I suspect that power is the
most important
On the flats: Power. In the mountains: Power to weight. So
in theory the
Tour de France should always be won by the heaviest rider from the
top-most power to weight bracket. (-:

Break-even is when during a tour you spent the same energy propelling
you forward as lifting you upwards. This depends a little bit on your
speed in flat terrain, but as a rule of thumb it is
somewhere between 10
to 15 m climbing per kilometer, or 1 to 1.5 % "average" grade. Below
that, it is "flat" and W trumps, above, it is mountainous and W/kg
trumps.

Axel
That is just theory. TdF is not a time trial. On the flat a GC
rider gets a lot of help from his teammates. In the mountains
not so much. And then there is tactics.
Axel doesn't have a theory, he is simply stating fact. On the
flats absolutely power gives absolute speed. In climbing the
power to weight ratio gives climbing speed. Remember Mario
Cipollini? He was an absolute monster and yet he won most
sprints that he contested. His power to weight ratio was so low
that on the slightest climb he was immediately off the back. The
reason that modern racers with less power to weight ratio are
winning is because they can sustain that power output over
longer periods so that the real climbers simply run out of power
and their p/w falls off. Exactly why would you argue simple
physics?
I don't argue simple physics, I argue who will likely to win a race/TdF.
Then you ought to make a lot of money betting on races.

No you can hardly predict that at the start of a race just by looking
at power and weight numbers. That was my point. What I do know is that
to win the TdF you have:
- to be in shape (duh),
- able to recover quickly,
- able to stay focus 3 weeks on a row,
- handle the pressure,
- able to ride a good time trial,
- have a good team,
- have a bit of luck to stay out of crashes,
- good power to weight ratio.
- etc.

To win the Vuelta (Tour of Spain) you have to be a good climber.

If you *could* predict the result of a bike race, or any athletic event,
just by reading stats, then it wouldn't be much fun to watch, and they
would have to change the rules. It's evolution in action: Sporting
outcomes tend to resemble the orbit of Pluto -- predictable, but not too
perfectly.

Actually you can bet on bicycle races. The Japanese Keirin bike races,
for example, were developed in Japan around 1948 for gambling
purposes.


Yes, that's true but we were discussing T d'F:
https://sports.ladbrokes.com/sport/c.../matches/today

O.K.
https://www.betandskill.com/how-to-b...our-de-france/
https://www.betonit.org/how-to-bet-o...dds-and-guide/
https://puntersport.com/bet-on-tour-de-france/
https://ecovelo.info/how-to-bet-on-the-tour-de-france/
:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.