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  #21  
Old February 3rd 21, 07:47 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_4_]
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Default Newest Campagnolo engineering

On Tuesday, February 2, 2021 at 11:10:06 PM UTC-8, wrote:
Op dinsdag 2 februari 2021 om 19:09:49 UTC+1 schreef :
On Monday, February 1, 2021 at 11:54:12 PM UTC-8, James wrote:
On 29/1/21 6:45 am, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, January 28, 2021 at 10:24:30 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
https://bikerumor.com/2021/01/25/cam...eed-cassettes/


I believe that the cog spacing for 11, 12, 13 and 14 are identical
between all of the brands. It probably would have been a better idea
to make Campy cogsets compatible with all of the other brands. It
isn't as if people are going to revert to 10 speeds though I
suggested to Shimano that they made their new wireless levers
programmable to shift any cogset with any spacing. This in fact would
be extremely easy. But perhaps brand loyalty would keep them from
doing that.

https://archercomponents.com/

"
Simple Setup

Don't know your shifter's pull ratio? Me neither!

Use the Archer app to quickly setup and tune your gears. No special
tools or technical skills required.

Set the number of gears from 2 to 20 and dial in each gear position to
0.25mm precision.

Then use the app to gain total control of how your electronic shifter runs.

Thanks for that information James. That sort of programmability is exactly what I sent a letter to Shimano about. Let's see if they respond.

Maybe they will respond out of courtesy but I'm almost certain they don't going to implement that. Why should they? It was already possible with the current Di2 systems.


Lou, the wired Di2 will NOT shift a 10 speed cassette let alone a 9 speed. It COULD be programmable to do so.
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  #22  
Old February 3rd 21, 07:49 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_4_]
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Posts: 2,196
Default Newest Campagnolo engineering

On Wednesday, February 3, 2021 at 10:33:48 AM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, February 3, 2021 at 10:18:59 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/3/2021 12:43 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op woensdag 3 februari 2021 om 17:06:28 UTC+1 schreef jbeattie:

I wonder what Tom means by "that sort of programmability." The Archer product is just some sort of motor pulling a cable and not moving a derailleur. You can reprogram the Di2 firmware in 10sp shifters to shift 11sp, but the RD mechanism is not "re-programmable" AFAIK. It is a worm-drive system, and probably (I don't know this) the shift jumps are dependent on the internal cog/drive/motor. Its a hardware issue and not a software issue.

-- Jay Beattie.


No it not a hardware issue. There is a DC motor/gearbox in the rear and front derailleur with an encoder. You can move the RD any amount by just telling him to move a x number of encoder pulses per click of your shifter switch. That is basic stuff in my world of positioning at work.
I still plan to take my RD apart that got broken last year to show what is inside.

I'll be interested in seeing that. (And I agree about the motor and
encoder.)

Learn by destroying . . . or just destroying. If the motor works, this kid probably just failed to reset his uber-expensive RD after a crash. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsPk...lsOfMarcoVlogs

Note: https://fitwerx.com/converting-shima...2-to-11-speed/ The 6770 RD will not "recognize" 11sp shift command (?), but the shifters are upgradeable to 11sp. Hmm.

-- Jay Beattie.

I couldn't get any further than him using pliers for everything.
  #23  
Old February 3rd 21, 08:01 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_4_]
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Posts: 2,196
Default Newest Campagnolo engineering

On Wednesday, February 3, 2021 at 10:45:52 AM UTC-8, wrote:
Op woensdag 3 februari 2021 om 19:33:48 UTC+1 schreef jbeattie:
On Wednesday, February 3, 2021 at 10:18:59 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/3/2021 12:43 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op woensdag 3 februari 2021 om 17:06:28 UTC+1 schreef jbeattie:

I wonder what Tom means by "that sort of programmability." The Archer product is just some sort of motor pulling a cable and not moving a derailleur. You can reprogram the Di2 firmware in 10sp shifters to shift 11sp, but the RD mechanism is not "re-programmable" AFAIK. It is a worm-drive system, and probably (I don't know this) the shift jumps are dependent on the internal cog/drive/motor. Its a hardware issue and not a software issue.

-- Jay Beattie.


No it not a hardware issue. There is a DC motor/gearbox in the rear and front derailleur with an encoder. You can move the RD any amount by just telling him to move a x number of encoder pulses per click of your shifter switch. That is basic stuff in my world of positioning at work.
I still plan to take my RD apart that got broken last year to show what is inside.
I'll be interested in seeing that. (And I agree about the motor and
encoder.)

Learn by destroying . . . or just destroying. If the motor works, this kid probably just failed to reset his uber-expensive RD after a crash. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsPk...lsOfMarcoVlogs

Mine is really broken because it ended up in the spokes twice. Every lever in the RD is deformed, but the motor still works. Start watching from 6.10 min on.

Note: https://fitwerx.com/converting-shima...2-to-11-speed/ The 6770 RD will not "recognize" 11sp shift command (?), but the shifters are upgradeable to 11sp. Hmm.

Indeed.

Lou

The mechanism for the drive motor is really odd. I definitely would not operate it in such a manner. I would used a screw mechanism which would reduce the force necessary to move the derailleur mechanism and would also allow you to do very fine adjustments on distance to fine tune it. It would be interesting to see how Campy did it since Italian Engineers are pretty sharp.
  #24  
Old February 4th 21, 02:26 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 5,870
Default Newest Campagnolo engineering

On Wednesday, February 3, 2021 at 10:45:52 AM UTC-8, wrote:
Op woensdag 3 februari 2021 om 19:33:48 UTC+1 schreef jbeattie:
On Wednesday, February 3, 2021 at 10:18:59 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/3/2021 12:43 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op woensdag 3 februari 2021 om 17:06:28 UTC+1 schreef jbeattie:

I wonder what Tom means by "that sort of programmability." The Archer product is just some sort of motor pulling a cable and not moving a derailleur. You can reprogram the Di2 firmware in 10sp shifters to shift 11sp, but the RD mechanism is not "re-programmable" AFAIK. It is a worm-drive system, and probably (I don't know this) the shift jumps are dependent on the internal cog/drive/motor. Its a hardware issue and not a software issue.

-- Jay Beattie.


No it not a hardware issue. There is a DC motor/gearbox in the rear and front derailleur with an encoder. You can move the RD any amount by just telling him to move a x number of encoder pulses per click of your shifter switch. That is basic stuff in my world of positioning at work.
I still plan to take my RD apart that got broken last year to show what is inside.
I'll be interested in seeing that. (And I agree about the motor and
encoder.)

Learn by destroying . . . or just destroying. If the motor works, this kid probably just failed to reset his uber-expensive RD after a crash. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsPk...lsOfMarcoVlogs

Mine is really broken because it ended up in the spokes twice. Every lever in the RD is deformed, but the motor still works. Start watching from 6.10 min on.

Note: https://fitwerx.com/converting-shima...2-to-11-speed/ The 6770 RD will not "recognize" 11sp shift command (?), but the shifters are upgradeable to 11sp. Hmm.

Indeed.

Lou


https://www.bikeradar.com/features/s...ura-ace-r9200/ Not surprising.. This clearly will not talk to your wired RD.

-- Jay Beattie.

  #25  
Old February 5th 21, 10:11 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,196
Default Newest Campagnolo engineering

On Wednesday, February 3, 2021 at 5:26:39 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, February 3, 2021 at 10:45:52 AM UTC-8, wrote:
Op woensdag 3 februari 2021 om 19:33:48 UTC+1 schreef jbeattie:
On Wednesday, February 3, 2021 at 10:18:59 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/3/2021 12:43 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op woensdag 3 februari 2021 om 17:06:28 UTC+1 schreef jbeattie:

I wonder what Tom means by "that sort of programmability." The Archer product is just some sort of motor pulling a cable and not moving a derailleur. You can reprogram the Di2 firmware in 10sp shifters to shift 11sp, but the RD mechanism is not "re-programmable" AFAIK. It is a worm-drive system, and probably (I don't know this) the shift jumps are dependent on the internal cog/drive/motor. Its a hardware issue and not a software issue.

-- Jay Beattie.


No it not a hardware issue. There is a DC motor/gearbox in the rear and front derailleur with an encoder. You can move the RD any amount by just telling him to move a x number of encoder pulses per click of your shifter switch. That is basic stuff in my world of positioning at work.
I still plan to take my RD apart that got broken last year to show what is inside.
I'll be interested in seeing that. (And I agree about the motor and
encoder.)
Learn by destroying . . . or just destroying. If the motor works, this kid probably just failed to reset his uber-expensive RD after a crash. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsPk...lsOfMarcoVlogs

Mine is really broken because it ended up in the spokes twice. Every lever in the RD is deformed, but the motor still works. Start watching from 6..10 min on.

Note: https://fitwerx.com/converting-shima...2-to-11-speed/ The 6770 RD will not "recognize" 11sp shift command (?), but the shifters are upgradeable to 11sp. Hmm.

Indeed.

Lou

https://www.bikeradar.com/features/s...ura-ace-r9200/ Not surprising.. This clearly will not talk to your wired RD.

-- Jay Beattie.

Jay, there was a YouTube video about someone pulling a 9100 rear derailleur apart and it didn't look like a worm drive. It looked like small normal gears working a lever. I don't understand Lou's claim about being able to program a 7970 (is that the number of the first generation 10 speed?) since you cannot connect a shifter to a either 11 speed derailleurs since the cables are completely different. The 10 speed rear derailleur cannot be coxed into shifting 11 speeds as far as I know.

What I was talking about is that you should be able to program the rear deraileur into shifting any number of gears with any spacing you like since there is really only two spacings - 7-8-9-10 and 11-12-13-14. The programming of the shifter only would be the maximum number of shifts. All of this is elementary programming.

I have been watching my shifting very closely and I simply cannot see any use for more than 9 gears and for the majority of riders who are on flat ground 8 is more than enough. This of course does not count for racers who are now attempting to maintain a very high cadence for very long periods of time. I don't believe that you or I would gain anything of worth by spinning like a sewing machine.
  #26  
Old February 5th 21, 10:43 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Lou Holtman[_5_]
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Posts: 826
Default Newest Campagnolo engineering

Op vrijdag 5 februari 2021 om 22:11:47 UTC+1 schreef :
On Wednesday, February 3, 2021 at 5:26:39 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, February 3, 2021 at 10:45:52 AM UTC-8, wrote:
Op woensdag 3 februari 2021 om 19:33:48 UTC+1 schreef jbeattie:
On Wednesday, February 3, 2021 at 10:18:59 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/3/2021 12:43 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op woensdag 3 februari 2021 om 17:06:28 UTC+1 schreef jbeattie:

I wonder what Tom means by "that sort of programmability." The Archer product is just some sort of motor pulling a cable and not moving a derailleur. You can reprogram the Di2 firmware in 10sp shifters to shift 11sp, but the RD mechanism is not "re-programmable" AFAIK. It is a worm-drive system, and probably (I don't know this) the shift jumps are dependent on the internal cog/drive/motor. Its a hardware issue and not a software issue.

-- Jay Beattie.


No it not a hardware issue. There is a DC motor/gearbox in the rear and front derailleur with an encoder. You can move the RD any amount by just telling him to move a x number of encoder pulses per click of your shifter switch. That is basic stuff in my world of positioning at work.
I still plan to take my RD apart that got broken last year to show what is inside.
I'll be interested in seeing that. (And I agree about the motor and
encoder.)
Learn by destroying . . . or just destroying. If the motor works, this kid probably just failed to reset his uber-expensive RD after a crash. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsPk...lsOfMarcoVlogs
Mine is really broken because it ended up in the spokes twice. Every lever in the RD is deformed, but the motor still works. Start watching from 6.10 min on.

Note: https://fitwerx.com/converting-shima...2-to-11-speed/ The 6770 RD will not "recognize" 11sp shift command (?), but the shifters are upgradeable to 11sp. Hmm.
Indeed.

Lou

https://www.bikeradar.com/features/s...ura-ace-r9200/ Not surprising. This clearly will not talk to your wired RD.

-- Jay Beattie.

Jay, there was a YouTube video about someone pulling a 9100 rear derailleur apart and it didn't look like a worm drive. It looked like small normal gears working a lever. I don't understand Lou's claim about being able to program a 7970 (is that the number of the first generation 10 speed?) since you cannot connect a shifter to a either 11 speed derailleurs since the cables are completely different. The 10 speed rear derailleur cannot be coxed into shifting 11 speeds as far as I know.


My claim doesn't apply to systems using a different protocols, but as far as I know only the first generation of DA is odd ball. All the other systems are simple CAN bus systems. The shifters only send simple messages over the CAN bus, 'RDup, RDdown, FDup, FDdown'. These messages are interpreted by the controller in the RD or FD and result in a movement of the motor of a certain amounts of motor pulses. Simple change the firmware and the commands of the shifter will be interpreted differently.

What I was talking about is that you should be able to program the rear deraileur into shifting any number of gears with any spacing you like since there is really only two spacings - 7-8-9-10 and 11-12-13-14. The programming of the shifter only would be the maximum number of shifts. All of this is elementary programming.


That is what I said.


I have been watching my shifting very closely and I simply cannot see any use for more than 9 gears and for the majority of riders who are on flat ground 8 is more than enough. This of course does not count for racers who are now attempting to maintain a very high cadence for very long periods of time. I don't believe that you or I would gain anything of worth by spinning like a sewing machine.


More gears is always better. You can use that for more range or smaller steps between gears. I used my cross bike on the road today with a 11 speed 11/32 cassette, compared to my gravel bike I used yesterday with a 11 speed 14/28 cassette it sucked.

Lou


  #27  
Old February 6th 21, 12:04 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,196
Default Newest Campagnolo engineering

On Friday, February 5, 2021 at 1:43:52 PM UTC-8, wrote:
Op vrijdag 5 februari 2021 om 22:11:47 UTC+1 schreef :
On Wednesday, February 3, 2021 at 5:26:39 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, February 3, 2021 at 10:45:52 AM UTC-8, wrote:
Op woensdag 3 februari 2021 om 19:33:48 UTC+1 schreef jbeattie:
On Wednesday, February 3, 2021 at 10:18:59 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/3/2021 12:43 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op woensdag 3 februari 2021 om 17:06:28 UTC+1 schreef jbeattie:

I wonder what Tom means by "that sort of programmability." The Archer product is just some sort of motor pulling a cable and not moving a derailleur. You can reprogram the Di2 firmware in 10sp shifters to shift 11sp, but the RD mechanism is not "re-programmable" AFAIK. It is a worm-drive system, and probably (I don't know this) the shift jumps are dependent on the internal cog/drive/motor. Its a hardware issue and not a software issue.

-- Jay Beattie.


No it not a hardware issue. There is a DC motor/gearbox in the rear and front derailleur with an encoder. You can move the RD any amount by just telling him to move a x number of encoder pulses per click of your shifter switch. That is basic stuff in my world of positioning at work.
I still plan to take my RD apart that got broken last year to show what is inside.
I'll be interested in seeing that. (And I agree about the motor and
encoder.)
Learn by destroying . . . or just destroying. If the motor works, this kid probably just failed to reset his uber-expensive RD after a crash.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsPk...lsOfMarcoVlogs
Mine is really broken because it ended up in the spokes twice. Every lever in the RD is deformed, but the motor still works. Start watching from 6.10 min on.

Note: https://fitwerx.com/converting-shima...2-to-11-speed/ The 6770 RD will not "recognize" 11sp shift command (?), but the shifters are upgradeable to 11sp. Hmm.
Indeed.

Lou
https://www.bikeradar.com/features/s...ura-ace-r9200/ Not surprising. This clearly will not talk to your wired RD.

-- Jay Beattie.

Jay, there was a YouTube video about someone pulling a 9100 rear derailleur apart and it didn't look like a worm drive. It looked like small normal gears working a lever. I don't understand Lou's claim about being able to program a 7970 (is that the number of the first generation 10 speed?) since you cannot connect a shifter to a either 11 speed derailleurs since the cables are completely different. The 10 speed rear derailleur cannot be coxed into shifting 11 speeds as far as I know.

My claim doesn't apply to systems using a different protocols, but as far as I know only the first generation of DA is odd ball. All the other systems are simple CAN bus systems. The shifters only send simple messages over the CAN bus, 'RDup, RDdown, FDup, FDdown'. These messages are interpreted by the controller in the RD or FD and result in a movement of the motor of a certain amounts of motor pulses. Simple change the firmware and the commands of the shifter will be interpreted differently.

What I was talking about is that you should be able to program the rear deraileur into shifting any number of gears with any spacing you like since there is really only two spacings - 7-8-9-10 and 11-12-13-14. The programming of the shifter only would be the maximum number of shifts. All of this is elementary programming.

That is what I said.

I have been watching my shifting very closely and I simply cannot see any use for more than 9 gears and for the majority of riders who are on flat ground 8 is more than enough. This of course does not count for racers who are now attempting to maintain a very high cadence for very long periods of time. I don't believe that you or I would gain anything of worth by spinning like a sewing machine.

More gears is always better. You can use that for more range or smaller steps between gears. I used my cross bike on the road today with a 11 speed 11/32 cassette, compared to my gravel bike I used yesterday with a 11 speed 14/28 cassette it sucked.

Lou


I must have misunderstood what you meant. In any case, the earliest DuraAce was really oddball with three or four connectors in each wire. It didn't take them long to correct that.

I have a problem with more gears being better. I find that when you get a larger gear than a 34/28 you use just as much energy because while you have a reduced torque you have to apply, you have to spin so much longer to get up a slope that your only gain would be if the climb was so long or so steep that you couldn't carry a smaller gear.

I occasionally use the 32 on a day when I'm feeling bad but it ends up being used not because I can't climb in the 28 but because I continue shifting down because I'm used to the Campy 10 speed having a 28 tooth lower limit and so I just automatically end up in the 32 trying to get into the 28.

At the moment, I am riding so little because of the winter, that I have to work pretty hard to so the 14% bump up on the ride I did yesterday. This is only 50 feet but it leaves me crawling for 200 yards to catch my breath and lower my heart rate. The 37 mile 3400 feet of climbing ride I do is actually much easier since a steep section on that is only 10%. But because of the lockdown the coffee stop isn't available at the end of it. Though this moronic governor finally reopened stuff with "social distancing" and masks since he sees the recall gaining momentum. Perhaps that coffee shop wasn't put out of business and I'll be able to do that ride again. It was MUCH more picturesque. The Di2 on the Lemond shifts perfect on the big ring but jumps back and forth on the small ring. I have to figure out what that is. It isn't chain length because it operate fine in the small ring and the lower half of the cogset. Perhaps I've adjusted it so that it is touching the front derailleur in the upper half of the cogset. That is a function of that tiny little center adjustment screw I think.
 




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