Freeing up stuck derailleur pantogram

On 2/5/2021 11:06 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Fri, 05 Feb 2021 09:13:18 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 2/5/2021 12:55 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Fri, 5 Feb 2021 06:19:32 -0000 (UTC), "D. Pureheart Steinbruner"
wrote:

Well, the heck of it is that it worked perfectly well at first and only had
to sit a few weeks in my garage to freeze up.

The garage temperature might be cold enough to turn the lube oil to
tar.

While it's mostly functional just wondered what is preferred lube or maybe
propane torch *then* lube.

I use either sewing machine or clock oil for lubricating rotating
bicycle parts. Constant viscosity with temperature, doesn't stain my
clothes, doesn't evaporate and turn to tar, and is fairly cheap.
https://www.google.com/search?q=sewing+machine+oil+bicycle
I have both the mineral oil versions and the synthetics. The
synthetics do much better at high temperatures, which hopefully your
bicycle will never see. Otherwise, both types seem about the same. I
use these because I have a fairly good supply of these oils from other
projects, and I haven't had any problems using them. Unfortunately,
I've never used these oils on a derailleur pantograph and have no idea
what might happen.

Also, I suggest that you try my standard method of dealing with
unknown devices. I tear everything apart, inspect everything, and
clean everything. This doesn't really fix anything, but does give me
an excuse to closely inspect all the parts for wear, damage, and
foreign debris. The culprit usually appears during the inspection. It
also gives me an opportunity to learn how it works. In theory, once I
understand how something works, I can usually fix it.
https://www.thisiscolossal.com/2013/05/things-come-apart-a-new-book-of-disassembled-objects-by-todd-mclellan/
Well, maybe not quite "usually".

Good luck.

Good choices. Sewing machine oil was also sold as "Sturmey
Archer Cycle Oil" at one time.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-S...4AAOSw2w5gHUn4

Sewing machine and clock oils are usually based on common mineral oil.
The polymers in the oil are cracked into smaller lengths to give it a
lower viscosity. However, all petroleum based oils have the
irritating habit of attacking rubber seals and plastic parts. You
won't find that in a clock or sewing machine, both of which are mostly
metal on metal. So, the synthetic sewing machine substitutes are used
for those situations where the oil needs to touch rubber or plastic
(or possibly paint). What I like about all of them is that they act
the same whether hot, cold, wet, or dry.

For things with tight clearances which are stuck, try
Rock-N-Roll. It's unearthly in its penetration. I know this
sounds like a tout but it really is exceptional.

https://www.rocklube.com
I'll give it a try. Ummm... which version?
https://www.rocklube.com/products.html
I'll look at the MSDS sheet later. My guess(tm) is that it's mostly
mineral oil or a silicon based synthetic.

My favorite penetrating oil is Kroil, which is banned in the Peoples
Republic of California. I was somewhat involved in this mess:
https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/kano-laboratories-inc-settlement
I guess I shouldn't mention that I have a few unmarked cans of ozone
depleting Kroil left in my secret stash. No, you can't have any.
https://www.kroil.com



We carefully select a bottle of Rock-N-Roll (Red, Blue,
Gold) for the shop based on whatever is most plentiful on
the shelf when the prior bottle runs out. We can't tell any
difference. Haven't had the White Holy Cow long enough to
have an opinion but seems the same as the others. Probably
not made out of these but who knows:
https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/b/whit...i-49603350.jpg

Incidentally the original was brown like very strong tea.
Colors came later but the product doesn't seem all that
different. IME there's nothing quite like it for making
tight things move again.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Friday, February 5, 2021 at 12:06:45 PM UTC-5, wrote:

My favorite penetrating oil is Kroil, which is banned in the Peoples
Republic of California. I was somewhat involved in this mess:
https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/kano-laboratories-inc-settlement
I guess I shouldn't mention that I have a few unmarked cans of ozone
depleting Kroil left in my secret stash. No, you can't have any.
https://www.kroil.com

From the Kroil website:
“My priest suggested Kroil to help me clean up my language.�
- Amazon Review

On Friday, February 5, 2021 at 7:13:38 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/5/2021 12:55 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Fri, 5 Feb 2021 06:19:32 -0000 (UTC), "D. Pureheart Steinbruner"
wrote:

Well, the heck of it is that it worked perfectly well at first and only had
to sit a few weeks in my garage to freeze up.

The garage temperature might be cold enough to turn the lube oil to
tar.

While it's mostly functional just wondered what is preferred lube or maybe
propane torch *then* lube.

I use either sewing machine or clock oil for lubricating rotating
bicycle parts. Constant viscosity with temperature, doesn't stain my
clothes, doesn't evaporate and turn to tar, and is fairly cheap.
https://www.google.com/search?q=sewing+machine+oil+bicycle
I have both the mineral oil versions and the synthetics. The
synthetics do much better at high temperatures, which hopefully your
bicycle will never see. Otherwise, both types seem about the same. I
use these because I have a fairly good supply of these oils from other
projects, and I haven't had any problems using them. Unfortunately,
I've never used these oils on a derailleur pantograph and have no idea
what might happen.

Also, I suggest that you try my standard method of dealing with
unknown devices. I tear everything apart, inspect everything, and
clean everything. This doesn't really fix anything, but does give me
an excuse to closely inspect all the parts for wear, damage, and
foreign debris. The culprit usually appears during the inspection. It
also gives me an opportunity to learn how it works. In theory, once I
understand how something works, I can usually fix it.
https://www.thisiscolossal.com/2013/05/things-come-apart-a-new-book-of-disassembled-objects-by-todd-mclellan/
Well, maybe not quite "usually".

Good luck.


Good choices. Sewing machine oil was also sold as "Sturmey
Archer Cycle Oil" at one time.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-S...4AAOSw2w5gHUn4

For things with tight clearances which are stuck, try
Rock-N-Roll. It's unearthly in its penetration. I know this
sounds like a tout but it really is exceptional.

Rock and Roll is a chain oil that is in large part a degreaser for cleaning the chain and then a Teflon powder in solution with it to embed Teflon in small cracks and crevices. This is good stuff but you have to leave it dry overnight so that the degreaser completely evaporates or the lubricant oozes out. For parts like derailleur hinges of various sorts, I have a can of Campagnolo grease that I must have bought 100 years ago. It is thin and clear and viscous enough that it embeds itself in all of the surfaces that are being lubricated. If it ever hardens I've never been able to see it. It doesn't penetrate nor does it work its way in so it only seems to work well on surfaces it can be directly applied. I have always preferred grease for lubrication rather than oil or plastic substitutes.

On Fri, 05 Feb 2021 09:06:37 -0800, Jeff Liebermann scribed:


Sewing machine and clock oils are usually based on common mineral oil.
The polymers in the oil are cracked into smaller lengths to give it a
lower viscosity. However, all petroleum based oils have the irritating
habit of attacking rubber seals and plastic parts. You won't find that
in a clock or sewing machine, both of which are mostly metal on metal.

Maybe a century or half ago. Take a trip to a local clock shop and look
carefully at wall clocks. All driven by copious plastic ears in a little
square match box side device.

Starting to be the same with domestic sewing machines where some of the
gears are plastic for the expected relative short life (shde of design by
Henry Ford). They are not designed to become heirlooms within the family
like mum's old Singer treadle could have been.

FWIW, sewing machine oil is a very good generic light oi in a household.

On Sat, 6 Feb 2021 02:42:17 -0000 (UTC), News 2021
wrote:

On Fri, 05 Feb 2021 09:06:37 -0800, Jeff Liebermann scribed:


Sewing machine and clock oils are usually based on common mineral oil.
The polymers in the oil are cracked into smaller lengths to give it a
lower viscosity. However, all petroleum based oils have the irritating
habit of attacking rubber seals and plastic parts. You won't find that
in a clock or sewing machine, both of which are mostly metal on metal.

Maybe a century or half ago. Take a trip to a local clock shop and look
carefully at wall clocks. All driven by copious plastic ears in a little
square match box side device.

Yeah, I know. I do some minor clock repair. Most of what I see are
steel shafts and brass gears sandwiched between brass or steel plates.
I've done some plastic gear clocks. Mostly, what I did was to remove
the lubricant and its residue. The general recommendation is to NOT
lube plastic gears. However, there are those who suggest otherwise.
For example, Machine Design article says mineral oil is just fine on
plastic gears:
https://www.machinedesign.com/motors-drives/article/21831576/engineering-essentials-lubrication-tips-for-plastic-gears-and-more-part-2
Typically, lubricants based on silicone, PFAE (perflourinated),
most synthetic hydrocarbons (SHC or PAO), or mineral oils work
well with plastics. Lubricants based on esters or polyglycols
are generally not compatible with plastics, although there are
exceptions depending on the type of plastic.

Of course, there's an equal amount of hype and magic in clock oils as
there is in bicycle chain lubricants:
https://www.kensclockclinic.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Clock-Oils.pdf
16.8 MBytes and 35 pages of what looks like a power point presentation
in PDF form. Worth reading methinks.

Starting to be the same with domestic sewing machines where some of the
gears are plastic for the expected relative short life (shde of design by
Henry Ford). They are not designed to become heirlooms within the family
like mum's old Singer treadle could have been.

Yep. I learned sewing machine repair in my father's lingerie factory
in Smog Angeles. I'm certainly not an expert on sewing machines but
have learned a few things. One obvious item is that industrial sewing
machines are VERY different from the typical home sewing machine.

The older home sewing machines tend to be better built because they
were used more often. When I was young, there was an entire industry
built on alterations and fitting clothes. Sewing was taught in the
schools. Today, everything is pre-fitted and not intended to last.
So, the home sewing machines of today are not built to run as long or
as often as the older machines. Plastic or fiberglass gears are
certainly part of the problem. However, unless home sewing magically
becomes a new fad, there's really no incentive to make sewing machines
that last longer than the warranty period.

FWIW, sewing machine oil is a very good generic light oi in a household.

Yep. I used to use "turbine oil" for most everything around the
house. It handles high temperatures nicely, but doesn't do anything
else that's exceptional. I've switched to sewing machine oil for most
things:
https://www.google.com/search?q=sewing+machine+oil&tbm=isch
and clock oil:
https://www.google.com/search?q=clock+oil&tbm=isch
for things where low evaporation and constant viscosity with
temperature are important.

--
Jeff Liebermann
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Thu, 04 Feb 2021 22:55:46 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

I use either sewing machine or clock oil for lubricating rotating
bicycle parts. Constant viscosity with temperature, doesn't stain my
clothes, doesn't evaporate and turn to tar, and is fairly cheap.
https://www.google.com/search?q=sewing+machine+oil+bicycle
I have both the mineral oil versions and the synthetics. The
synthetics do much better at high temperatures, which hopefully your
bicycle will never see. Otherwise, both types seem about the same. I
use these because I have a fairly good supply of these oils from other
projects, and I haven't had any problems using them. Unfortunately,
I've never used these oils on a derailleur pantograph and have no idea
what might happen.

I believe it was a derailleur that a sag team once loosened up with
sun-tan oil. The rider was told to clean it off and use real oil when
he got home, since we suspected that prolonged exposure to air would
turn sun-tan oil into varnish.

That was during a September Century, so that was an era ago.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

On Saturday, February 6, 2021 at 1:17:09 AM UTC-5, wrote:

The general recommendation is to NOT
lube plastic gears. However, there are those who suggest otherwise.
For example, Machine Design article says mineral oil is just fine on
plastic gears:
https://www.machinedesign.com/motors-drives/article/21831576/engineering-essentials-lubrication-tips-for-plastic-gears-and-more-part-2
Typically, lubricants based on silicone, PFAE (perflourinated),
most synthetic hydrocarbons (SHC or PAO), or mineral oils work
well with plastics. Lubricants based on esters or polyglycols
are generally not compatible with plastics, although there are
exceptions depending on the type of plastic.

This is a special area of concern in my field. My company makes liquid product storage/transportation overfill prevention systems. 90% of our business is fuels (gasoline, diesel, jet fuel, home heating oil), and the remainder are a wide variety of other liquid chemicals. Believe it or not, we do a stable but small business in the scotch/whisky industry in the UK. The seals used in the components have to be impervious to the specific medium being processed. When designing new products, we do a long-term exposure of the material to the likely chemicals it will be exposed to under heat - generally a 30 day soak in the liquid and concentrated vapor at 60C. Every few days we check the durometer and weight of the samples. A static seal can be allowed some absorption as long as it recovers back to the original durometer and weight after drying. A moving seal must exhibit statiscally insignificant change. In either case a change of more than a few percent is very bad. We have found that fuels with high ethanol do a fantastic job attacking certain rubbers.

Bringing us back to bicycles, This is why you cannot use brake fluid in brakes designed for mineral oil and vice versa. The seals swell up from absorbing the wrong liquid and the brake seizes. I did a bunch of reading on the subject back when I installed my first set of hydraulic brakes on an MTB, thought I was going to be a wise guy and try automotive antifreeze instead of the mineral oil. It has significantly lower viscosity for quicker response and excellent thermal transfer characteristics (unlike either mineral oil or brake fluid). There are in fact companies making 'water brakes' for bicycles (https://www.brakeforceone.de). According to the data sheets I was able to get, there shouldn't have been a problem with the seals in ethylene glycol. I didn't consider the effect of water, and the data sheets don't list water. After a month of riding, the seal in the lever piston wouldn't move. I took everything apart, let it dry off for a week, and the seals recovered nicely. Two years later with mineral oil in the system everything works great.

On Friday, February 5, 2021 at 11:43:43 PM UTC-8, Joy Beeson wrote:
On Thu, 04 Feb 2021 22:55:46 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
I use either sewing machine or clock oil for lubricating rotating
bicycle parts. Constant viscosity with temperature, doesn't stain my
clothes, doesn't evaporate and turn to tar, and is fairly cheap.
https://www.google.com/search?q=sewing+machine+oil+bicycle
I have both the mineral oil versions and the synthetics. The
synthetics do much better at high temperatures, which hopefully your
bicycle will never see. Otherwise, both types seem about the same. I
use these because I have a fairly good supply of these oils from other
projects, and I haven't had any problems using them. Unfortunately,
I've never used these oils on a derailleur pantograph and have no idea
what might happen.
I believe it was a derailleur that a sag team once loosened up with
sun-tan oil. The rider was told to clean it off and use real oil when
he got home, since we suspected that prolonged exposure to air would
turn sun-tan oil into varnish.

That was during a September Century, so that was an era ago.

Joy, this is a tech group and you make a comment about an emergency repair that is only a thousand times more technical than people talking about old clocks with plastic gears and plates. It is embarrassing to read this stuff on this group.

On Sat, 06 Feb 2021 02:43:39 -0500, Joy Beeson
wrote:

On Thu, 04 Feb 2021 22:55:46 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

I use either sewing machine or clock oil for lubricating rotating
bicycle parts. Constant viscosity with temperature, doesn't stain my
clothes, doesn't evaporate and turn to tar, and is fairly cheap.
https://www.google.com/search?q=sewing+machine+oil+bicycle
I have both the mineral oil versions and the synthetics. The
synthetics do much better at high temperatures, which hopefully your
bicycle will never see. Otherwise, both types seem about the same. I
use these because I have a fairly good supply of these oils from other
projects, and I haven't had any problems using them. Unfortunately,
I've never used these oils on a derailleur pantograph and have no idea
what might happen.

I believe it was a derailleur that a sag team once loosened up with
sun-tan oil. The rider was told to clean it off and use real oil when
he got home, since we suspected that prolonged exposure to air would
turn sun-tan oil into varnish.

That was during a September Century, so that was an era ago.

I'll assume is was some form of sunscreen, rather than a suntanning
dye.

I was rather suprised by the ingredients list for Coppertone
UltraGuard Continuous Sunscreen Spray:
https://imgcdn.mckesson.com/CumulusWeb/Click_and_learn/SDS_9BAYER_COPPERTONE_SPORT_SPRAY_SPF15_5_5OZ.pdf
It's mostly ethyl alcohol, which will rapidly evaporate, and the usual
mineral oil, which is an effective lubricant. The alcohol will loosen
any gummy oil residue and the mineral oil will act as a lubricant.

INGREDIENT CAS NUMBER PERCENT
Ethyl Alcohol 64-17-5 45-85
Isopropyl Myristate 110-27-0 15
Amines, Coco Alkyl Mixture 10
Light Mineral Oil 8042-47-5 10
Glycerin 56-81-5 10
Avobenzone 70356-09-1 0-3
Homosalate 118-56-9 0-15
Octinoxate 5466-77-3 0-7.5
Octisalate 118-60-5 0-5
Octocrylene 6197-30-4 0-10
Oxybenzone 131-57-7 0-6

Ethyl Alcohol is a carrier for the oils and compounds. When it
evaporates, the oils are left on the skin.

Isopropy Myristate is a mixture of isopropyl alcohol and a fatty acid,
usually butter. It's commonly used in cosmetics to enhance the skins
natural oil barrier.

Amines, Coco Alkyl Mixture is possibly a fragrance mix. I'm not sure.

Light Mineral Oil and Glycerin hold the various chemical filters in
place against the skin.

Homosalate, Octinoxate, Octisalate, Octocrylene, and Oxybenzone are
chemical filters for different wavelengths of light. I think these
are all powders.
https://www.ewg.org/sunscreen/report/the-trouble-with-sunscreen-chemicals/

Avobenzone is a UVA absorber.

So, which ingredient is harmful to a derailleur? The ethyl alcohol
can attack plastic, but probably has insufficient surface contact
time. You would have to paint it on and replace it when it
evaporates, in order to see an effect. The mineral oil and glycerin
are the likely culprits. Both will turn to varnish eventually.

Mineral oil is often used as a varnish in woodworking:
https://www.hunker.com/13403990/mineral-oil-as-a-wood-finish

The sag team people were right about a varnish problem with sun tan
oil (sunscreen). Almost any organic solvent would remove the varnish,
so cleanup should not have been a problem.


--
Jeff Liebermann
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Saturday, February 6, 2021 at 2:43:43 AM UTC-5, Joy Beeson wrote:
On Thu, 04 Feb 2021 22:55:46 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
I use either sewing machine or clock oil for lubricating rotating
bicycle parts. Constant viscosity with temperature, doesn't stain my
clothes, doesn't evaporate and turn to tar, and is fairly cheap.
https://www.google.com/search?q=sewing+machine+oil+bicycle
I have both the mineral oil versions and the synthetics. The
synthetics do much better at high temperatures, which hopefully your
bicycle will never see. Otherwise, both types seem about the same. I
use these because I have a fairly good supply of these oils from other
projects, and I haven't had any problems using them. Unfortunately,
I've never used these oils on a derailleur pantograph and have no idea
what might happen.
I believe it was a derailleur that a sag team once loosened up with
sun-tan oil. The rider was told to clean it off and use real oil when
he got home, since we suspected that prolonged exposure to air would
turn sun-tan oil into varnish.

That was during a September Century, so that was an era ago.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

That kind of improv reminds me of the 2009 tour of california. The race suffered through a particularly cold and rainy winter, and a lot of riders had a hard time managing layers. Brad White of team Ouch-Maxxis went so far as to buy some bright yellow diswashing gloves to keep his hands dry, and warm

https://www.shutterstock.com/editori...-2009-7831798l