Ross Signature Frame

On Monday, February 8, 2021 at 4:38:02 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/8/2021 2:43 PM, Diana King wrote:
On Monday, February 8, 2021 at 2:17:09 PM UTC-6, Ralph Barone wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
On 2/8/2021 12:09 PM, Diana King wrote:
I purchased a small Ross Signature frame to build a bike for my wife..
It still has the original decals on it, but the black paint is far from
perfect and I'd like
to paint it a prettier color for her, like lavender or something. If I
strip it and paint it, will it automatically lose value or does it
matter, if at some future point when we might want to sell it if it has
the original decals or not. Also, the components, I'll be putting on it
will not all be correct to the original (I'm making it more of an
upright). Thanks for your input!


Everyone will have an opinion, there is no objective correct
answer.

IMHO, a nice glossy color you like is a good choice. My
daughter's formerly boring silver grey bike is now purple pearl:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...st/raly19i.jpg

in re 'lavender or something'
This was custom matched to the bedroom wall paint sample
card of the 14 year old girl who rides it:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/uni15f.jpg

Andrew, nice colours on those frames. What type of paint do you use? I
keep going back to the Dupli-color rattle cans because it seems that all
the “good†paints require SCBA gear and paint booths to avoid killing
yourself (or family members) off.
Thanks for the advice. The question is whether or not to strip the paint and redo the frame in another color regardless of the technique. It's a 294s frame with Ishiwata tubing, the decals are in nice shape, but the ROSS on the sides of the down tubes look painted on. The paint is okay in places but there is evidence of rust on the chain stays and certain other areas. There is there is no indication of anybody's signature. I wonder if I can remove and replace the decals or if they are available as replacements or if it's worth it. I have another XL Ross frame with really nice Shimano group set, that I intend to swap over to the smaller frame.. What do you think?

Speaking only for myself, it's a Ross.


It's a Kellog design with ishiwata tubing, albeit mass produced, as opposed to Ross model 508 hand made models. Certainly not a Spectrum, but a decent sport/entry level frame. I have a 1984 508, which was built by Tom Kellogs welder Jeff Duser. Sweet bike. It rides better than my Basso Gap, and as well as my Kellog Merlin.

I'd strip it, clean up the rusty bits, spend a day
reflecting on any brazed bits to add or remove and then acid
wash, primer, wetsand and some color you and/or the rider
like better.

If you think it looks naked without graphics, aftermarket
vinyl replicas can stick over your paint any time.

If it were a mid-1950s Cinelli with some little scuffs on
original paint, my opinion would be to wash it and then wax it.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Monday, February 8, 2021 at 3:43:37 PM UTC-5, Diana King wrote:

Thanks for the advice. The question is whether or not to strip the paint and redo the frame in another color regardless of the technique. It's a 294s frame with Ishiwata tubing, the decals are in nice shape, but the ROSS on the sides of the down tubes look painted on. The paint is okay in places but there is evidence of rust on the chain stays and certain other areas. There is there is no indication of anybody's signature. I wonder if I can remove and replace the decals or if they are available as replacements or if it's worth it. I have another XL Ross frame with really nice Shimano group set, that I intend to swap over to the smaller frame.. What do you think?


Hi Diana, The decals are available from Velocal. https://velocals.com/search.php?search_query=ross

They don't have the 294, just the 292. The difference was the components. There isn't any difference in the frame.

On Mon, 08 Feb 2021 13:15:26 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 2/8/2021 12:54 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Monday, February 8, 2021 at 10:27:59 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/8/2021 12:09 PM, Diana King wrote:
I purchased a small Ross Signature frame to build a bike for my wife. It still has the original decals on it, but the black paint is far from perfect and I'd like
to paint it a prettier color for her, like lavender or something. If I strip it and paint it, will it automatically lose value or does it matter, if at some future point when we might want to sell it if it has the original decals or not. Also, the components, I'll be putting on it will not all be correct to the original (I'm making it more of an upright). Thanks for your input!

Everyone will have an opinion, there is no objective correct
answer.

IMHO, a nice glossy color you like is a good choice. My
daughter's formerly boring silver grey bike is now purple pearl:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...st/raly19i.jpg

in re 'lavender or something'
This was custom matched to the bedroom wall paint sample
card of the 14 year old girl who rides it:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/uni15f.jpg


I might like to make a point - the problem with paint is that it is thin and easily scratches even with a very good paint job. If you live in a somewhat metropolitan area you can probably find a powder coating shop. While they normally stick to blacks and whites powder coating is available in pretty much any color you like including pearl and metallic. Strip the frame down and put temperature resistant tape in and over any threads and you can usually get a very good powder coating job for $150 as opposed to a $1200 job from D&D custom bike paint shop with new decals and covered in clear coat to prevent the decals from peeling over time. It is pretty difficult to scratch powder coat and usually you can even get two tone for a slight extra cost. The new decals are usually available om-line for about $40.


A great example of taste.
Powder has its own collection of troubles and I for one want
no part of it.

To sort of reinforce Andrew's comments I have powder coated three
frames and yes. it does make a really tough coating but it certainly
isn't as "pretty" as a properly applied "paint". Especially the
two-part paints designed for auto's.

"Rattle-can" paints in my experience do not make for as nice a finish
as a more "proper" paint, neither as shiny or as "tough".
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Monday, February 8, 2021 at 2:43:41 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 08 Feb 2021 13:15:26 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 2/8/2021 12:54 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Monday, February 8, 2021 at 10:27:59 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/8/2021 12:09 PM, Diana King wrote:
I purchased a small Ross Signature frame to build a bike for my wife.. It still has the original decals on it, but the black paint is far from perfect and I'd like
to paint it a prettier color for her, like lavender or something. If I strip it and paint it, will it automatically lose value or does it matter, if at some future point when we might want to sell it if it has the original decals or not. Also, the components, I'll be putting on it will not all be correct to the original (I'm making it more of an upright). Thanks for your input!

Everyone will have an opinion, there is no objective correct
answer.

IMHO, a nice glossy color you like is a good choice. My
daughter's formerly boring silver grey bike is now purple pearl:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...st/raly19i.jpg

in re 'lavender or something'
This was custom matched to the bedroom wall paint sample
card of the 14 year old girl who rides it:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/uni15f.jpg


I might like to make a point - the problem with paint is that it is thin and easily scratches even with a very good paint job. If you live in a somewhat metropolitan area you can probably find a powder coating shop. While they normally stick to blacks and whites powder coating is available in pretty much any color you like including pearl and metallic. Strip the frame down and put temperature resistant tape in and over any threads and you can usually get a very good powder coating job for $150 as opposed to a $1200 job from D&D custom bike paint shop with new decals and covered in clear coat to prevent the decals from peeling over time. It is pretty difficult to scratch powder coat and usually you can even get two tone for a slight extra cost. The new decals are usually available om-line for about $40.


A great example of taste.
Powder has its own collection of troubles and I for one want
no part of it.
To sort of reinforce Andrew's comments I have powder coated three
frames and yes. it does make a really tough coating but it certainly
isn't as "pretty" as a properly applied "paint". Especially the
two-part paints designed for auto's.

"Rattle-can" paints in my experience do not make for as nice a finish
as a more "proper" paint, neither as shiny or as "tough".
--

True, although Duplicolor has gotten pretty good reviews. I did rattle can jobs with Rust-Oleum products that were O.K., but not very durable. On that Ross, I'd strip it and do all the stuff Muzi says and then turn it into a Colnago. https://www.amazon.com/Colnago-Stick.../dp/B01MCVWNOD $13.90 and free delivery -- and you got yourself a Colnago.

Any professionally applied paint -- powder or liquid -- will exceed the value of the frame, so IMO, its got to be a rattle can. I toyed with spraying auto finish on one frame -- a DuPont or PPG product -- and realized it would cost me a fortune just for the paint products, and I'd have endless left-overs. So, unless you're going to spray a bunch of frames or will share with friends (or just want to spend money), rattle can is basically the only option for DIY.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 2/8/2021 8:00 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, February 8, 2021 at 2:43:41 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 08 Feb 2021 13:15:26 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 2/8/2021 12:54 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Monday, February 8, 2021 at 10:27:59 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/8/2021 12:09 PM, Diana King wrote:
I purchased a small Ross Signature frame to build a bike for my wife. It still has the original decals on it, but the black paint is far from perfect and I'd like
to paint it a prettier color for her, like lavender or something. If I strip it and paint it, will it automatically lose value or does it matter, if at some future point when we might want to sell it if it has the original decals or not. Also, the components, I'll be putting on it will not all be correct to the original (I'm making it more of an upright). Thanks for your input!

Everyone will have an opinion, there is no objective correct
answer.

IMHO, a nice glossy color you like is a good choice. My
daughter's formerly boring silver grey bike is now purple pearl:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...st/raly19i.jpg

in re 'lavender or something'
This was custom matched to the bedroom wall paint sample
card of the 14 year old girl who rides it:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/uni15f.jpg


I might like to make a point - the problem with paint is that it is thin and easily scratches even with a very good paint job. If you live in a somewhat metropolitan area you can probably find a powder coating shop. While they normally stick to blacks and whites powder coating is available in pretty much any color you like including pearl and metallic. Strip the frame down and put temperature resistant tape in and over any threads and you can usually get a very good powder coating job for $150 as opposed to a $1200 job from D&D custom bike paint shop with new decals and covered in clear coat to prevent the decals from peeling over time. It is pretty difficult to scratch powder coat and usually you can even get two tone for a slight extra cost. The new decals are usually available om-line for about $40.


A great example of taste.
Powder has its own collection of troubles and I for one want
no part of it.
To sort of reinforce Andrew's comments I have powder coated three
frames and yes. it does make a really tough coating but it certainly
isn't as "pretty" as a properly applied "paint". Especially the
two-part paints designed for auto's.

"Rattle-can" paints in my experience do not make for as nice a finish
as a more "proper" paint, neither as shiny or as "tough".
--

True, although Duplicolor has gotten pretty good reviews. I did rattle can jobs with Rust-Oleum products that were O.K., but not very durable. On that Ross, I'd strip it and do all the stuff Muzi says and then turn it into a Colnago. https://www.amazon.com/Colnago-Stick.../dp/B01MCVWNOD $13.90 and free delivery -- and you got yourself a Colnago.

Any professionally applied paint -- powder or liquid -- will exceed the value of the frame, so IMO, its got to be a rattle can. I toyed with spraying auto finish on one frame -- a DuPont or PPG product -- and realized it would cost me a fortune just for the paint products, and I'd have endless left-overs. So, unless you're going to spray a bunch of frames or will share with friends (or just want to spend money), rattle can is basically the only option for DIY.

-- Jay Beattie.


Yes, that is a very good point. I hadn't considered 'your
average guy' and a one-time finish.

Quart phosphoric acid metal prep $15 (dilute per directions!
most will be left over)
Aerosol auto parts store grey primer $5. Qualitatively no
different from what we shoot. You'll sand it out and spray
over problem areas a few times. This is where attention to
detail gives a superior finish and lack of it not.

Pint of acrylic enamel color $25~$50 (12 ounces left over,
prices vary a lot by color)
1/2 pint activator $20 (7 ounces left over)
Quart enamel reducer $25 (remainder useful for cleanup,
general parts cleaner)
Strainers are free when you buy paint products. Ask.
Chinese crappy spray gun setup $30
Assortment of wetsand paper 220, 400, 600 $10
Assuming you have a compressor and a suitable place to spray
you're looking at $140+ and several hours' commitment on the
low side.

Since this is putatively your first spray adventure add in
some 2000 wetsand paper, polishing compound $8, buffing
compound $20 and another few hours because you'll have rough
areas.

Jay makes a very good point on cost.


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

AMuzi wrote:
On 2/8/2021 2:17 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
On 2/8/2021 12:09 PM, Diana King wrote:
I purchased a small Ross Signature frame to build a bike for my wife.
It still has the original decals on it, but the black paint is far from
perfect and I'd like
to paint it a prettier color for her, like lavender or something. If I
strip it and paint it, will it automatically lose value or does it
matter, if at some future point when we might want to sell it if it has
the original decals or not. Also, the components, I'll be putting on it
will not all be correct to the original (I'm making it more of an
upright). Thanks for your input!


Everyone will have an opinion, there is no objective correct
answer.

IMHO, a nice glossy color you like is a good choice. My
daughter's formerly boring silver grey bike is now purple pearl:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...st/raly19i.jpg

in re 'lavender or something'
This was custom matched to the bedroom wall paint sample
card of the 14 year old girl who rides it:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/uni15f.jpg


Andrew, nice colours on those frames. What type of paint do you use? I
keep going back to the Dupli-color rattle cans because it seems that all
the “good� paints require SCBA gear and paint booths to avoid killing
yourself (or family members) off.


We use aerosol hardware store primer and color (free) over
minor braze repairs. Krylon's not expensive and it's not
excellent but free is a very good price:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...st/cantsv2.jpg

We shoot actual paint by Akzo(DuPont) same as body shops
shoot but we charge for it.
http://www.yellowjersey.org/g'boue1.jpg

Real paint isn't cheap in itself but labor is 80% of the
cost, just as in painting a car.

As with many processes (lead or cadmium work, cotton
polishing wheels, asbestos, benzene, metyl chloride and so
on) if you have health concerns then by all means follow the
various safety protocols suggested.



Ah. You’re still shooting acrylic enamel. I think I have a half quart of
Lake Placid blue left over from a guitar refinish. I was referring more to
the modern 2K finishes, which seem to de designed to kill you. I thought
that the older style paints were unavailable and that you were stuck
choosing between rattle and at hardware stores and highly toxic stuff at
pro stores.

On 2/8/2021 8:43 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
On 2/8/2021 2:17 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
On 2/8/2021 12:09 PM, Diana King wrote:
I purchased a small Ross Signature frame to build a bike for my wife.
It still has the original decals on it, but the black paint is far from
perfect and I'd like
to paint it a prettier color for her, like lavender or something. If I
strip it and paint it, will it automatically lose value or does it
matter, if at some future point when we might want to sell it if it has
the original decals or not. Also, the components, I'll be putting on it
will not all be correct to the original (I'm making it more of an
upright). Thanks for your input!


Everyone will have an opinion, there is no objective correct
answer.

IMHO, a nice glossy color you like is a good choice. My
daughter's formerly boring silver grey bike is now purple pearl:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...st/raly19i.jpg

in re 'lavender or something'
This was custom matched to the bedroom wall paint sample
card of the 14 year old girl who rides it:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/uni15f.jpg


Andrew, nice colours on those frames. What type of paint do you use? I
keep going back to the Dupli-color rattle cans because it seems that all
the “good� paints require SCBA gear and paint booths to avoid killing
yourself (or family members) off.


We use aerosol hardware store primer and color (free) over
minor braze repairs. Krylon's not expensive and it's not
excellent but free is a very good price:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...st/cantsv2.jpg

We shoot actual paint by Akzo(DuPont) same as body shops
shoot but we charge for it.
http://www.yellowjersey.org/g'boue1.jpg

Real paint isn't cheap in itself but labor is 80% of the
cost, just as in painting a car.

As with many processes (lead or cadmium work, cotton
polishing wheels, asbestos, benzene, metyl chloride and so
on) if you have health concerns then by all means follow the
various safety protocols suggested.



Ah. You’re still shooting acrylic enamel. I think I have a half quart of
Lake Placid blue left over from a guitar refinish. I was referring more to
the modern 2K finishes, which seem to de designed to kill you. I thought
that the older style paints were unavailable and that you were stuck
choosing between rattle and at hardware stores and highly toxic stuff at
pro stores.


Today's basic 2K acrylic enamels are durable, solvent
resistant, UV resistant, available in more colors than a
human can comprehend and available everywhere.

The superduper polyurethane enamels with cyanide are IMHO
not all that. I shot them for a few years (1973~1980) but
the cost is a lot higher and the quality isn't. I wasn't
concerned then or now about breathing one or the other
although you might. Just didn't enter into my decisions.

When you say 'older' I wouldn't mind nitrocellulose lacquers
(as on classic guitars BTW) but they no longer exist.
Beautiful depth to those. Modern paint takes a lot less
labor than real lacquer- still lots but less. And UV killed
them as you may remember.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

AMuzi wrote:
On 2/8/2021 8:43 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
On 2/8/2021 2:17 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
On 2/8/2021 12:09 PM, Diana King wrote:
I purchased a small Ross Signature frame to build a bike for my wife.
It still has the original decals on it, but the black paint is far from
perfect and I'd like
to paint it a prettier color for her, like lavender or something. If I
strip it and paint it, will it automatically lose value or does it
matter, if at some future point when we might want to sell it if it has
the original decals or not. Also, the components, I'll be putting on it
will not all be correct to the original (I'm making it more of an
upright). Thanks for your input!


Everyone will have an opinion, there is no objective correct
answer.

IMHO, a nice glossy color you like is a good choice. My
daughter's formerly boring silver grey bike is now purple pearl:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...st/raly19i.jpg

in re 'lavender or something'
This was custom matched to the bedroom wall paint sample
card of the 14 year old girl who rides it:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/uni15f.jpg


Andrew, nice colours on those frames. What type of paint do you use? I
keep going back to the Dupli-color rattle cans because it seems that all
the “good� paints require SCBA gear and paint booths to avoid killing
yourself (or family members) off.


We use aerosol hardware store primer and color (free) over
minor braze repairs. Krylon's not expensive and it's not
excellent but free is a very good price:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...st/cantsv2.jpg

We shoot actual paint by Akzo(DuPont) same as body shops
shoot but we charge for it.
http://www.yellowjersey.org/g'boue1.jpg

Real paint isn't cheap in itself but labor is 80% of the
cost, just as in painting a car.

As with many processes (lead or cadmium work, cotton
polishing wheels, asbestos, benzene, metyl chloride and so
on) if you have health concerns then by all means follow the
various safety protocols suggested.



Ah. You’re still shooting acrylic enamel. I think I have a half quart of
Lake Placid blue left over from a guitar refinish. I was referring more to
the modern 2K finishes, which seem to de designed to kill you. I thought
that the older style paints were unavailable and that you were stuck
choosing between rattle and at hardware stores and highly toxic stuff at
pro stores.


Today's basic 2K acrylic enamels are durable, solvent
resistant, UV resistant, available in more colors than a
human can comprehend and available everywhere.

The superduper polyurethane enamels with cyanide are IMHO
not all that. I shot them for a few years (1973~1980) but
the cost is a lot higher and the quality isn't. I wasn't
concerned then or now about breathing one or the other
although you might. Just didn't enter into my decisions.

When you say 'older' I wouldn't mind nitrocellulose lacquers
(as on classic guitars BTW) but they no longer exist.
Beautiful depth to those. Modern paint takes a lot less
labor than real lacquer- still lots but less. And UV killed
them as you may remember.


Thanks, Andrew. I see I have some learning to do about automotive paints. I
keep seeing the 2K urethanes with isocyanates and huge warnings. If modern
acrylic enamels can be sprayed in a basement or garage using a basic
organic vapour mask, maybe there’s another alternative out there for me.

PS: you can still buy nitro lacquer, just not for automotive applications.
You gotta talk to the furniture and luthiery suppliers.

If you're going to shoot some modern, "poisonous" paint, consider using PPG Delfleet One, the epoxy paint that trucking companies apply to the undersides of their vehicles in the "snow-'n-salt" belt to prevent them from rusting, applied over their DP90 epoxy primer. It is the best paint I have ever used on a bicycle: very durable; extremely tenacious; shiny and buffs out beautifully.

On 2/9/2021 1:38 AM, Ralph Barone wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
On 2/8/2021 8:43 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
On 2/8/2021 2:17 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
On 2/8/2021 12:09 PM, Diana King wrote:
I purchased a small Ross Signature frame to build a bike for my wife.
It still has the original decals on it, but the black paint is far from
perfect and I'd like
to paint it a prettier color for her, like lavender or something. If I
strip it and paint it, will it automatically lose value or does it
matter, if at some future point when we might want to sell it if it has
the original decals or not. Also, the components, I'll be putting on it
will not all be correct to the original (I'm making it more of an
upright). Thanks for your input!


Everyone will have an opinion, there is no objective correct
answer.

IMHO, a nice glossy color you like is a good choice. My
daughter's formerly boring silver grey bike is now purple pearl:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...st/raly19i.jpg

in re 'lavender or something'
This was custom matched to the bedroom wall paint sample
card of the 14 year old girl who rides it:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/uni15f.jpg


Andrew, nice colours on those frames. What type of paint do you use? I
keep going back to the Dupli-color rattle cans because it seems that all
the “good� paints require SCBA gear and paint booths to avoid killing
yourself (or family members) off.


We use aerosol hardware store primer and color (free) over
minor braze repairs. Krylon's not expensive and it's not
excellent but free is a very good price:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...st/cantsv2.jpg

We shoot actual paint by Akzo(DuPont) same as body shops
shoot but we charge for it.
http://www.yellowjersey.org/g'boue1.jpg

Real paint isn't cheap in itself but labor is 80% of the
cost, just as in painting a car.

As with many processes (lead or cadmium work, cotton
polishing wheels, asbestos, benzene, metyl chloride and so
on) if you have health concerns then by all means follow the
various safety protocols suggested.



Ah. You’re still shooting acrylic enamel. I think I have a half quart of
Lake Placid blue left over from a guitar refinish. I was referring more to
the modern 2K finishes, which seem to de designed to kill you. I thought
that the older style paints were unavailable and that you were stuck
choosing between rattle and at hardware stores and highly toxic stuff at
pro stores.


Today's basic 2K acrylic enamels are durable, solvent
resistant, UV resistant, available in more colors than a
human can comprehend and available everywhere.

The superduper polyurethane enamels with cyanide are IMHO
not all that. I shot them for a few years (1973~1980) but
the cost is a lot higher and the quality isn't. I wasn't
concerned then or now about breathing one or the other
although you might. Just didn't enter into my decisions.

When you say 'older' I wouldn't mind nitrocellulose lacquers
(as on classic guitars BTW) but they no longer exist.
Beautiful depth to those. Modern paint takes a lot less
labor than real lacquer- still lots but less. And UV killed
them as you may remember.


Thanks, Andrew. I see I have some learning to do about automotive paints. I
keep seeing the 2K urethanes with isocyanates and huge warnings. If modern
acrylic enamels can be sprayed in a basement or garage using a basic
organic vapour mask, maybe there’s another alternative out there for me.

PS: you can still buy nitro lacquer, just not for automotive applications.
You gotta talk to the furniture and luthiery suppliers.


Don't spray in your basement. Among other large problems,
your water heater has a pilot light.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971