Planing

On Saturday, February 13, 2021 at 11:31:17 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Saturday, February 13, 2021 at 12:30:54 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:


Axel
That Basso brazed joint analysis is not correct at all.
Either there was a communication problem or he is seriously
ill informed about lugged bicycle frames.
Ok, edify me.

AFAIK, the brazing doesn't give way, at least based on my experience having crumpled the front-end of a custom steel frame hitting the side of a car that right hooked me. I had some great forks with a Cinelli semi-sloping cast crown that I drove right into a garage door header on a roof rack. The tubes bent and broke below the crown internal plug. The lugged joints in both cases were visually unaffected, but the frame was wrecked.

Assuming Basso doesn't use tin/lead solder, I would expect the tube to buckle at the butt before the joint gave up. This is a popular wall-impact result:
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...161feb5564.jpg

-- Jay Beattie.

On 2/14/2021 7:08 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, February 13, 2021 at 11:31:17 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Saturday, February 13, 2021 at 12:30:54 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:


Axel
That Basso brazed joint analysis is not correct at all.
Either there was a communication problem or he is seriously
ill informed about lugged bicycle frames.
Ok, edify me.

AFAIK, the brazing doesn't give way, at least based on my experience having crumpled the front-end of a custom steel frame hitting the side of a car that right hooked me. I had some great forks with a Cinelli semi-sloping cast crown that I drove right into a garage door header on a roof rack. The tubes bent and broke below the crown internal plug. The lugged joints in both cases were visually unaffected, but the frame was wrecked.

Assuming Basso doesn't use tin/lead solder, I would expect the tube to buckle at the butt before the joint gave up. This is a popular wall-impact result:
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...161feb5564.jpg

-- Jay Beattie.


+1
As observed, the old maxim that a brazed sleeved joint is
stronger than the tube is usually true in practice.

Are there braze errors? Yep, but not as frequent as
crash-damaged tubes. Basso is at least in the top half of
Italians for braze QC.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sunday, February 14, 2021 at 3:31:37 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Saturday, February 13, 2021 at 9:10:34 AM UTC-6, wrote:

"We know that riders can put out 12% more power on bikes with optimized flex characteristics. Our observations during our double-blind test – where we rode bikes that were identical except one was stiffer than the others – are consistent with the idea that the best frames allow us to input more energy with less fatigue. "

What intrigues me is that riders are different. Pedal differently. Some riders my size, height, weight, strength, pedal in a grinding style. Others spin. And others pedal medium. I'm probably in the medium category. But also sometimes I spin and sometimes I grind. Flats and hills I vary my riding style. For me a 58cm frame is perfect. So do I need three different 58cm frames/bikes that are all identical except for this planing characteristic.? I imagine Trek and Specialized would jump for joy if they could sell three identical bikes to each person with the only difference being the frame is hard, medium, soft planing. And if I'm medium riding on the flat and get to a hill that I am going to grind up, do I need a bike change at the bottom of the hill. And if I spin going down the hill do I need another bike change at the top to optimize the spin down. And then I ride medium on the flat so do I get another bike change at the bottom of the hill to optimize the medium riding on the flat until I get to the next hill. I'd need two or three support cars following me all the time to change bikes every few miles.

The answer is: yes. You need a support car with multiple bikes. When I get to a gravel patch, I call home and have my wife deliver the gravel bike. Specialized already has a headshock on the Roubaix that you can lock out, so dialing-in the ride is already here, but I'll drop a line to Mike Sinyard and suggest that he come up with a bike with a "planing dial indicator" and some internal support system that moves around to make the BB more limber, or the stays. It will be Bluetooth -- maybe use Siri. Another approach is to stop and let some air out of the tires, but that is pretty low-tech..

-- Jay Beattie.

On Sun, 14 Feb 2021 17:08:05 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:

On Saturday, February 13, 2021 at 11:31:17 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Saturday, February 13, 2021 at 12:30:54 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:


Axel
That Basso brazed joint analysis is not correct at all.
Either there was a communication problem or he is seriously
ill informed about lugged bicycle frames.
Ok, edify me.

AFAIK, the brazing doesn't give way, at least based on my experience having crumpled the front-end of a custom steel frame hitting the side of a car that right hooked me. I had some great forks with a Cinelli semi-sloping cast crown that I drove right into a garage door header on a roof rack. The tubes bent and broke below the crown internal plug. The lugged joints in both cases were visually unaffected, but the frame was wrecked.

Assuming Basso doesn't use tin/lead solder, I would expect the tube to buckle at the butt before the joint gave up. This is a popular wall-impact result:
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...161feb5564.jpg

-- Jay Beattie.
https://www.harrisproductsgroup.com/...ed-joints.aspx
The Harris Products Group who make "silver solder" among other
products state that a proper silver soldered joint can be over 70,000
PSI in strength. Assume a one inch O.D. tube with a lap joint of 1/2
inches. the strength of the joint would be in the neighborhood of
100,000 lbs.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sunday, February 14, 2021 at 7:13:57 PM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/14/2021 7:08 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, February 13, 2021 at 11:31:17 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Saturday, February 13, 2021 at 12:30:54 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:


Axel
That Basso brazed joint analysis is not correct at all.
Either there was a communication problem or he is seriously
ill informed about lugged bicycle frames.
Ok, edify me.

AFAIK, the brazing doesn't give way, at least based on my experience having crumpled the front-end of a custom steel frame hitting the side of a car that right hooked me. I had some great forks with a Cinelli semi-sloping cast crown that I drove right into a garage door header on a roof rack. The tubes bent and broke below the crown internal plug. The lugged joints in both cases were visually unaffected, but the frame was wrecked.

Assuming Basso doesn't use tin/lead solder, I would expect the tube to buckle at the butt before the joint gave up. This is a popular wall-impact result:
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...161feb5564.jpg

-- Jay Beattie.

+1
As observed, the old maxim that a brazed sleeved joint is
stronger than the tube is usually true in practice.

Are there braze errors? Yep, but not as frequent as
crash-damaged tubes. Basso is at least in the top half of
Italians for braze QC.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


I have a crumpled up fillet brazed frame from a car/bike accident. Me on the bike. Fillet joints are all perfect. Tubes crumpled like a toilet paper tube or torn apart. Don Walker custom track frame.

On Sunday, February 14, 2021 at 8:13:57 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/14/2021 7:08 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, February 13, 2021 at 11:31:17 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Saturday, February 13, 2021 at 12:30:54 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:


Axel
That Basso brazed joint analysis is not correct at all.
Either there was a communication problem or he is seriously
ill informed about lugged bicycle frames.
Ok, edify me.

AFAIK, the brazing doesn't give way, at least based on my experience having crumpled the front-end of a custom steel frame hitting the side of a car that right hooked me. I had some great forks with a Cinelli semi-sloping cast crown that I drove right into a garage door header on a roof rack. The tubes bent and broke below the crown internal plug. The lugged joints in both cases were visually unaffected, but the frame was wrecked.

Assuming Basso doesn't use tin/lead solder, I would expect the tube to buckle at the butt before the joint gave up. This is a popular wall-impact result:
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...161feb5564.jpg

-- Jay Beattie.

+1
As observed, the old maxim that a brazed sleeved joint is
stronger than the tube is usually true in practice.

Are there braze errors? Yep, but not as frequent as
crash-damaged tubes. Basso is at least in the top half of
Italians for braze QC.
--

There may have been a language barrier as the frame builder was an older Portuguese immigrant (nice guy, his son and I were on the same team for a bit). I distinctly remember him saying the brazing was done with a soft solder, though. Still, that was over 30 years ago. Some memories fade and distort..

On Monday, February 15, 2021 at 2:49:31 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Sunday, February 14, 2021 at 7:13:57 PM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/14/2021 7:08 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, February 13, 2021 at 11:31:17 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Saturday, February 13, 2021 at 12:30:54 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:


Axel
That Basso brazed joint analysis is not correct at all.
Either there was a communication problem or he is seriously
ill informed about lugged bicycle frames.
Ok, edify me.

AFAIK, the brazing doesn't give way, at least based on my experience having crumpled the front-end of a custom steel frame hitting the side of a car that right hooked me. I had some great forks with a Cinelli semi-sloping cast crown that I drove right into a garage door header on a roof rack. The tubes bent and broke below the crown internal plug. The lugged joints in both cases were visually unaffected, but the frame was wrecked.

Assuming Basso doesn't use tin/lead solder, I would expect the tube to buckle at the butt before the joint gave up. This is a popular wall-impact result:
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...161feb5564.jpg

-- Jay Beattie.

+1
As observed, the old maxim that a brazed sleeved joint is
stronger than the tube is usually true in practice.

Are there braze errors? Yep, but not as frequent as
crash-damaged tubes. Basso is at least in the top half of
Italians for braze QC.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
I have a crumpled up fillet brazed frame from a car/bike accident. Me on the bike. Fillet joints are all perfect. Tubes crumpled like a toilet paper tube or torn apart. Don Walker custom track frame.
Mercian Cycles in Derby, England can totally refurbish bikes that you like or build you an entirely new one from scratch. The not only make Mercians (These are the best riding steel bikes I've ever ridden) but they also build Holfsworth. These are totally custom frames build in any manner you like them just like Waterford in the USA and they are great bikes.