Rim failure

On 3/5/2021 5:30 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/5/2021 2:25 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, March 5, 2021 at 12:19:04 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/5/2021 1:55 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, March 5, 2021 at 10:24:59 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/5/2021 12:32 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, March 4, 2021 at 10:10:07 PM UTC-8,
wrote:
On Thu, 4 Mar 2021 21:48:47 -0000 (UTC), News 2021

wrote:
On Thu, 04 Mar 2021 08:49:17 -0800, Tom Kunich scribed:

I'm not really sure about this. Aluminum rims are made in a
long single
molding and then rolled into a wheel.

Err, I think you'll find they are an extrusion, cut to length
and then
'rolled and joined.
Yep. They start as an extrusion. Here's a bunch of videos that show
the process:
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=how+bicycle+rims+are+made


The process is shown starting at 00:32
"Factory Tour: Velocity USA Bicycle Wheels"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22sFAFTmBuU

There is really no difference between an extrusion and a molding.
One is two dimensional and the other three.
First, please read up on the difference between "molding" and
"casting."
It seems you are using the term "molding" when you actually mean
"casting."

https://www.ferralloy.com/castings-difference-molding/

https://www.smooth-on.com/support/faq/201/

Second, there are huge differences between extrusion and casting (what
you seem to be calling molding). The most startling one is during the
aluminum extrusion process, the aluminum never melts. The aluminum
billet gets very hot, but it stays in solid state the entire time.

You can read a bit about the process he
https://www.gabrian.com/what-is-alum...usion-process/

--
- Frank Krygowski
Can't you follow anything? A molding is a 3 dimensional extrusion.
While an extrusion is more accurate for talking about a wheel rim
extrusion a molding should be enough for you or anyone else to
understand. At one time the rim extrusions were held together with
nothing more than a clip, these days they are welded in place so
that you cannot have them come misaligned as once they did.

Now exactly what does that have to do with castings?

This is a semantic gulf which cannot be spanned.

Frank is using terms in their general English usage sense.

You're redefining or misusing terms such that what you wrote
is nonsense.

That is because you simply aren't thinking about this Andrew. An
ALUMINUM rim can be said to be an extrusion whereas a carbon rim is a
molding. Can you look at he shape of either and say that it is
different from the other?


Oh, I'm sorry I never thought of that.

You should have said 'carbon' in there some place.
No wonder it didn't make sense to me.

Tom's deflecting again, because he is absolutely incapable of ever
admitting any mistake, no matter how blatant.

He was very specifically talking about aluminum rims. Here's the quote,
from above:

"Aluminum rims are made in a long single molding and then rolled into a
wheel."


--
- Frank Krygowski

On Fri, 05 Mar 2021 12:25:10 -0800, Tom Kunich scribed:

On Friday, March 5, 2021 at 12:19:04 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/5/2021 1:55 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, March 5, 2021 at 10:24:59 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:

This is a semantic gulf which cannot be spanned.

Frank is using terms in their general English usage sense.

You're redefining or misusing terms such that what you wrote is
nonsense.

That is because you simply aren't thinking about this Andrew. An
ALUMINUM rim can be said to be an extrusion whereas a carbon rim is a
molding. Can you look at he shape of either and say that it is different
from the other?

Yes. Very different. I wonder how you manage differentiating between
bovine, ovine and and porcine, to give just one example.

Steel and aluminium bicycle rim starts as extrusions cut to length that
are the rolled. Carbon fibre rims are constructed and baked. Plastic rims
might be 'cast' in a mold, but these days, like a lot of plastic
products, they could be stamped.

But feel free to keep digging that hole.

On Fri, 5 Mar 2021 11:55:50 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Friday, March 5, 2021 at 10:24:59 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/5/2021 12:32 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, March 4, 2021 at 10:10:07 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Mar 2021 21:48:47 -0000 (UTC), News 2021
wrote:
On Thu, 04 Mar 2021 08:49:17 -0800, Tom Kunich scribed:

I'm not really sure about this. Aluminum rims are made in a long single
molding and then rolled into a wheel.

Err, I think you'll find they are an extrusion, cut to length and then
'rolled and joined.
Yep. They start as an extrusion. Here's a bunch of videos that show
the process:
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=how+bicycle+rims+are+made

The process is shown starting at 00:32
"Factory Tour: Velocity USA Bicycle Wheels"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22sFAFTmBuU

There is really no difference between an extrusion and a molding. One is two dimensional and the other three.
First, please read up on the difference between "molding" and "casting."
It seems you are using the term "molding" when you actually mean "casting."

https://www.ferralloy.com/castings-difference-molding/

https://www.smooth-on.com/support/faq/201/

Second, there are huge differences between extrusion and casting (what
you seem to be calling molding). The most startling one is during the
aluminum extrusion process, the aluminum never melts. The aluminum
billet gets very hot, but it stays in solid state the entire time.

You can read a bit about the process he
https://www.gabrian.com/what-is-alum...usion-process/

--
- Frank Krygowski
Can't you follow anything? A molding is a 3 dimensional extrusion. While an extrusion is more accurate for talking about a wheel rim extrusion a molding should be enough for you or anyone else to understand. At one time the rim extrusions were held together with nothing more than a clip, these days they are welded in place so that you cannot have them come misaligned as once they did.

Now exactly what does that have to do with castings?

No Tom you are wrong again - but then you are so often wrong.

A Molding, as you call it, is cast in a mold and an extrusion is
"extruded" i.e., squirted out. Both the grain structure of the
material, if it is a metal, and the strength will normally be
different.

By the way, extrusions, except for round ones are three dimensional -
height, width and length.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 3/5/2021 6:29 PM, News 2021 wrote:
On Fri, 05 Mar 2021 12:25:10 -0800, Tom Kunich scribed:

On Friday, March 5, 2021 at 12:19:04 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/5/2021 1:55 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, March 5, 2021 at 10:24:59 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:

This is a semantic gulf which cannot be spanned.

Frank is using terms in their general English usage sense.

You're redefining or misusing terms such that what you wrote is
nonsense.

That is because you simply aren't thinking about this Andrew. An
ALUMINUM rim can be said to be an extrusion whereas a carbon rim is a
molding. Can you look at he shape of either and say that it is different
from the other?

Yes. Very different. I wonder how you manage differentiating between
bovine, ovine and and porcine, to give just one example.

Steel and aluminium bicycle rim starts as extrusions cut to length that
are the rolled. Carbon fibre rims are constructed and baked. Plastic rims
might be 'cast' in a mold, but these days, like a lot of plastic
products, they could be stamped.

But feel free to keep digging that hole.

As long as we're down in that hole:

This video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAw7ihWIgAk shows a lot of
wheel manufacturing. Unfortunately it doesn't show the extrusion process
that produces the rim itself.

This is a pretty cool animation of the extrusion process:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bc7o_sEdX8U

And this one is a more realistic factory floor example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76NcaTxFdE8

Finally, I'm sure that steel bike rims are not extruded. Steel generally
can't be extruded. They're almost certainly "roll formed," where a steel
strip passes through a series of specially shaped rollers that gradually
fold it into the desired cross section.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6iODHla6qY


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 3/5/2021 6:16 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/5/2021 6:29 PM, News 2021 wrote:
On Fri, 05 Mar 2021 12:25:10 -0800, Tom Kunich scribed:

On Friday, March 5, 2021 at 12:19:04 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/5/2021 1:55 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, March 5, 2021 at 10:24:59 AM UTC-8, Frank
Krygowski wrote:

This is a semantic gulf which cannot be spanned.

Frank is using terms in their general English usage sense.

You're redefining or misusing terms such that what you
wrote is
nonsense.

That is because you simply aren't thinking about this
Andrew. An
ALUMINUM rim can be said to be an extrusion whereas a
carbon rim is a
molding. Can you look at he shape of either and say that
it is different
from the other?

Yes. Very different. I wonder how you manage
differentiating between
bovine, ovine and and porcine, to give just one example.

Steel and aluminium bicycle rim starts as extrusions cut
to length that
are the rolled. Carbon fibre rims are constructed and
baked. Plastic rims
might be 'cast' in a mold, but these days, like a lot of
plastic
products, they could be stamped.

But feel free to keep digging that hole.

As long as we're down in that hole:

This video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAw7ihWIgAk shows
a lot of wheel manufacturing. Unfortunately it doesn't show
the extrusion process that produces the rim itself.

This is a pretty cool animation of the extrusion process:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bc7o_sEdX8U

And this one is a more realistic factory floor example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76NcaTxFdE8

Finally, I'm sure that steel bike rims are not extruded.
Steel generally can't be extruded. They're almost certainly
"roll formed," where a steel strip passes through a series
of specially shaped rollers that gradually fold it into the
desired cross section.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6iODHla6qY



Like Play-Doh, cake icing and pasta:
https://cdn-s3.touchofmodern.com/pro...g?1409941 192

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Fri, 05 Mar 2021 19:16:44 -0500, Frank Krygowski scribed:


Finally, I'm sure that steel bike rims are not extruded.

Agree for the final part.

Steel generally can't be extruded.

Not in a pressure applied sense, but sometimes by gravity to create
'coarse billets/lengths/coils for rolling, stamping, drawing, etc.

They're almost certainly "roll formed," where a steel
strip passes through a series of specially shaped rollers that gradually
fold it into the desired cross section.

Which is effectively an extrusion process with expanded die although the
material may be drawn (and driven) rather then fed by pressure or gravity.

By comparison, aluminium extrusion is a lot easier.

Side tracking. As someone sad once, "we will extrude anything for you,
all you need is the die. I'm wondering if die making is still a craft.
Before I retired, computer programs to take all the craft out of steel
rolling were commonplace, although the local common manufacturer was
resisting their adoption. Even the moulder were resisting.

On Fri, 5 Mar 2021 09:32:34 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, March 4, 2021 at 10:10:07 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Mar 2021 21:48:47 -0000 (UTC), News 2021
wrote:
On Thu, 04 Mar 2021 08:49:17 -0800, Tom Kunich scribed:

I'm not really sure about this. Aluminum rims are made in a long single
molding and then rolled into a wheel.

Err, I think you'll find they are an extrusion, cut to length and then
'rolled and joined.
Yep. They start as an extrusion. Here's a bunch of videos that show
the process:
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=how+bicycle+rims+are+made

The process is shown starting at 00:32
"Factory Tour: Velocity USA Bicycle Wheels"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22sFAFTmBuU

There is really no difference between an extrusion and a molding.
One is two dimensional and the other three.

Can you show me an example of a casting that is 11 meters long? This
company can make extrusions to 11 meters:
https://aluminiumandalloys.com/the-design-of-aluminium-profiles-and-the-technological-limits-of-the-extrusion-process/
While you're at it, can you provide me an example of a solid casting
that has in included hole or other closed shape that runs the entire
length of the casting? No fair using 3D printing. How is an
extrusion two dimensional, or do you simply ignore that it has length?

What is the Difference Between Extruded Aluminum and Cast Aluminum?
https://www.howardprecision.com/what-is-the-difference-between-extruded-aluminum-and-cast-aluminum/
Extrusion is a process by which aluminum billets are
forced through a die, resulting in a desired cross section.
Whereas, casting is a process in which molten aluminum is
poured into a mold and then allowed to solidify.

I would be greatly amused to see a cast aluminum bicycle wheel. It
probably would have a solid cross section. My guess(tm) is that a
solid cast rim:
https://infolific.com/images/bicycling/bike-rim-cross-section.png
would weigh about 4 to 5 times as much as the rim in the above image.




--
Jeff Liebermann
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Friday, March 5, 2021 at 4:16:49 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/5/2021 6:29 PM, News 2021 wrote:
On Fri, 05 Mar 2021 12:25:10 -0800, Tom Kunich scribed:

On Friday, March 5, 2021 at 12:19:04 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/5/2021 1:55 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, March 5, 2021 at 10:24:59 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:

This is a semantic gulf which cannot be spanned.

Frank is using terms in their general English usage sense.

You're redefining or misusing terms such that what you wrote is
nonsense.

That is because you simply aren't thinking about this Andrew. An
ALUMINUM rim can be said to be an extrusion whereas a carbon rim is a
molding. Can you look at he shape of either and say that it is different
from the other?

Yes. Very different. I wonder how you manage differentiating between
bovine, ovine and and porcine, to give just one example.

Steel and aluminium bicycle rim starts as extrusions cut to length that
are the rolled. Carbon fibre rims are constructed and baked. Plastic rims
might be 'cast' in a mold, but these days, like a lot of plastic
products, they could be stamped.

But feel free to keep digging that hole.
As long as we're down in that hole:

This video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAw7ihWIgAk shows a lot of
wheel manufacturing. Unfortunately it doesn't show the extrusion process
that produces the rim itself.

This is a pretty cool animation of the extrusion process:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bc7o_sEdX8U

And this one is a more realistic factory floor example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76NcaTxFdE8

Finally, I'm sure that steel bike rims are not extruded. Steel generally
can't be extruded. They're almost certainly "roll formed," where a steel
strip passes through a series of specially shaped rollers that gradually
fold it into the desired cross section.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6iODHla6qY
Who would be surprised that rather than saying the steel rims are molded into shape you want to give it the name "roll formed".

On 3/6/2021 2:47 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, March 5, 2021 at 4:16:49 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/5/2021 6:29 PM, News 2021 wrote:
On Fri, 05 Mar 2021 12:25:10 -0800, Tom Kunich scribed:

On Friday, March 5, 2021 at 12:19:04 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/5/2021 1:55 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, March 5, 2021 at 10:24:59 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:

This is a semantic gulf which cannot be spanned.

Frank is using terms in their general English usage sense.

You're redefining or misusing terms such that what you wrote is
nonsense.

That is because you simply aren't thinking about this Andrew. An
ALUMINUM rim can be said to be an extrusion whereas a carbon rim is a
molding. Can you look at he shape of either and say that it is different
from the other?

Yes. Very different. I wonder how you manage differentiating between
bovine, ovine and and porcine, to give just one example.

Steel and aluminium bicycle rim starts as extrusions cut to length that
are the rolled. Carbon fibre rims are constructed and baked. Plastic rims
might be 'cast' in a mold, but these days, like a lot of plastic
products, they could be stamped.

But feel free to keep digging that hole.
As long as we're down in that hole:

This video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAw7ihWIgAk shows a lot of
wheel manufacturing. Unfortunately it doesn't show the extrusion process
that produces the rim itself.

This is a pretty cool animation of the extrusion process:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bc7o_sEdX8U

And this one is a more realistic factory floor example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76NcaTxFdE8

Finally, I'm sure that steel bike rims are not extruded. Steel generally
can't be extruded. They're almost certainly "roll formed," where a steel
strip passes through a series of specially shaped rollers that gradually
fold it into the desired cross section.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6iODHla6qY
Who would be surprised that rather than saying the steel rims are molded into shape you want to give it the name "roll formed".

Tom, I'm using industry standard terminology. Obviously that confuses you.

The factories that do roll forming call it roll forming. So do their
customers. If you want to play Humpty Dumpty, play on. It won't harm
your credibility any more than the other nonsense you post.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On Sat, 6 Mar 2021 11:47:37 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Friday, March 5, 2021 at 4:16:49 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/5/2021 6:29 PM, News 2021 wrote:
On Fri, 05 Mar 2021 12:25:10 -0800, Tom Kunich scribed:

On Friday, March 5, 2021 at 12:19:04 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/5/2021 1:55 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, March 5, 2021 at 10:24:59 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:

This is a semantic gulf which cannot be spanned.

Frank is using terms in their general English usage sense.

You're redefining or misusing terms such that what you wrote is
nonsense.

That is because you simply aren't thinking about this Andrew. An
ALUMINUM rim can be said to be an extrusion whereas a carbon rim is a
molding. Can you look at he shape of either and say that it is different
from the other?

Yes. Very different. I wonder how you manage differentiating between
bovine, ovine and and porcine, to give just one example.

Steel and aluminium bicycle rim starts as extrusions cut to length that
are the rolled. Carbon fibre rims are constructed and baked. Plastic rims
might be 'cast' in a mold, but these days, like a lot of plastic
products, they could be stamped.

But feel free to keep digging that hole.
As long as we're down in that hole:

This video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAw7ihWIgAk shows a lot of
wheel manufacturing. Unfortunately it doesn't show the extrusion process
that produces the rim itself.

This is a pretty cool animation of the extrusion process:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bc7o_sEdX8U

And this one is a more realistic factory floor example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76NcaTxFdE8

Finally, I'm sure that steel bike rims are not extruded. Steel generally
can't be extruded. They're almost certainly "roll formed," where a steel
strip passes through a series of specially shaped rollers that gradually
fold it into the desired cross section.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6iODHla6qY
Who would be surprised that rather than saying the steel rims are molded into shape you want to give it the name "roll formed".


Well Tommy, you can call them "molded" or "muddled" or "modeled" or
whatever you want to call them. It's just that those "in the
business", who "know what they are talking about" call them roll
formed.
--
Cheers,

John B.