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  #61  
Old September 3rd 17, 04:28 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
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Posts: 5,697
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On Sat, 2 Sep 2017 07:38:30 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Friday, September 1, 2017 at 7:03:45 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 1 Sep 2017 10:10:59 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

What in God's name makes you think that people go through years and years of training to make almost nothing under socialized medicine?


You quite obviously don't know what you are talking about as (1) a
doctor in government service in Thailand make a very comfortable
living and (2) those that work in private hospitals make a fortune and
(3) a great many doctors that work in government hospitals have
private clinics which they open in the evenings.

No matter HOW cheap it is, if you cannot find a competent doctor to treat you you have nothing.


In the past many doctors in Thailand were trained in England or the
U.S. and if a specialist were usually "board certified" in the country
that they trained in. Now:

There are 22 medical schools located in the country, and the majority
of them are public and state-funded. The first medical school in
Thailand was founded in the late 1880s at the Siriraj Hospital, a
teaching hospital that remains one of the most highly reputable
medical schools in the region.


Once again you demonstrate that you're not even in the same universe. And American neurologist makes around $6,000 for a 15 minute consultation. In a few hours he can buy a new car. After taxes.


I believe that your, much described, brain damage is showing up in
your posts. What in the world does the amount that a U.S. doctor is
paid have to do with the wealth of a Thai doctor.

Unless of course you wish to take into consideration cost of living,
taxes both state and federal, ( Thailand has no state taxes ).
property costs and taxes, and all the other costs of residing and
working in the U.S. as opposed to living and working in Thailand, you
simply cannot compare the two.

I have know several Thai doctors who were qualified to practice
medicine in the U.S. and elected to live and practice in Thailand. I
doubt that they did this and voluntarily gave up those huge fortunes
that are available in the U.S.

Tell us about this great wage Thai doctors make under socialized medicine.


I'm becoming more and more sure that your brain damage is effecting
your posts as we aren't discussing a socialized medicine system. In
fact in rereading the above I mentioned "government service", "private
hospitals" and that "doctors that work in government hospitals have
private clinics".
--
Cheers,

John B.

Ads
  #62  
Old September 3rd 17, 05:12 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Posts: 3,345
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On Saturday, September 2, 2017 at 4:16:47 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/2/2017 12:12 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/2/2017 10:34 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/carol-...b_5266944.html


OK, there's that.
But roughly 90,000 people went into a hospital last year and were killed
there by hospital acquired infection.

Unlike Black Helicopters, that cannot be mitigated by a tinfoil hat.


I've mentioned this before, but some years ago I read a book dealing
with risks and corporate cultures. It was recommended to me by an
engineering colleague. Sorry, I can't recall the title.

I remember chapters devoted to the tremendous increase in safety of air
travel, beginning during World War II but continuing into commercial
aviation. Supposedly a big contributor was instituting a system by which
pilots could anonymously report things like near misses, near mistakes
(like grabbing the control for flaps instead of landing gear), or just
good ideas for making things better. Crucial was a high-ranking team
that evaluated all those reports and acted on most of them. Anonymity
was also crucial, since no pilot wanted to risk his career by admitting
that he'd nearly killed a planeload of people.

The book had a chapter on hospitals, and pointed out that a few
hospitals have somewhat similar programs, and they have much better
outcomes because of them. But the book claimed most hospitals have a
very different culture, in which surgeons are treated like demigods. In
those, a nurse or anesthesiologist would never report that a surgeon
didn't scrub properly before an operation, or otherwise violated
procedures or made mistakes.

This was confirmed for me just yesterday. My physician (who's very
friendly with me) said he'd initially planned to be an anesthesiologist.
He gave up the idea after seeing how the surgeons he'd have to work with
abused other staff members and absolutely never admitted to mistakes.

The summary, I guess, is that it's possible to fix the problem of
hospital-acquired infections. But it's not going to come from posters
saying "Try to do better," which is as far as things go in most
hospitals. It's going to take some institutional changes - changes that
I'm sure lots of people would decry as just more bureaucracy.


I had cataract surgery a month or so ago. The anesthesiologist forgot to give me a second dose before the surgery so that I jumped when the blade was inserted into my eye. I suppose that if I were the kind I could sue. But when you're pumping a patient through every 30 minutes all day long these things are bound to happen.
  #64  
Old September 3rd 17, 05:18 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Posts: 3,345
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On Saturday, September 2, 2017 at 7:03:38 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 02 Sep 2017 08:17:03 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 9/1/2017 9:30 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 1 Sep 2017 10:10:59 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Friday, September 1, 2017 at 9:13:45 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, September 1, 2017 at 7:15:19 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, August 31, 2017 at 7:39:26 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:

Are you telling me that a Thai can go to a clinic and have a $500,000 panoramic x-ray taken of his jaw? How many of these clinics are there? How many doctors trained in doing a sinus lift that requires donated bone material to achieve? That requires three different medications before and afterwards top stave off infections?

Yup. Anything that the doctor orders. Specifically a panoramic x-ray I
do not know but if the government hospitals have the device then yes.
free.

You don't seem to be following me John. The numbers and costs of spectacular medical instruments in the USA is staggering. And these will often be in a private doctor's office. These are not available in Thailand any more than they are in European villages or even in Great Britain outside of the major cities.

The weakness of socialized medicine is that it cannot afford the advancements.

Hmmm. Seems like Thailand has a thriving MRI medical tourism business.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=-nt4-tavqXU

MRI units are more common in Japan than the US.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ts-by-country/ Note that Japan has "socialized insurance" and the cost of medical care is regulated. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health...ystem_in_Japan

Panoramic x-ray machines are mundane. You can buy on on the internet. Get a cheap one for home: https://www.dentalplanet.com/x-ray-e...CABEgLdvPD_BwE

Amazingly, people in other countries -- almost all of which have socialized medicine and/or socialized insurance with highly regulated medicine -- live long and useful lives. https://www.forbes.com/sites/danmunr.../#7a03c90e576f http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publ.../mirror-mirror We're dead last compared to a dozen commie-socialist countries.

Jay - does looking at the seating capacity of the waiting area for that MRI clinic not ring a very loud bell? And exactly what do you think that MRI's do? They were developed to display interior muscle composition and they really aren't very effective without contrast material injected into the proper area.

There are two and a half times as many doctors per 100,000 people in the US as in Japan. Three times what Great Britain has. Twenty times the doctors per 100,000 in Thailand.

What in God's name makes you think that people go through years and years of training to make almost nothing under socialized medicine?

No matter HOW cheap it is, if you cannot find a competent doctor to treat you you have nothing.

Life expectancy in the world's nations seems to be the highest in
Japan with a (combined male/female) life expectancy of 83.7 years.
Switzerland is next with 83.4 years, then Singapore with 83.1.

The U.K. is #20 with 81.2 years and the U.S. is #31 with 79.3, which
is between Costa Rica with 70.6 and Cuba with 79.1.

Life expectancy at birth (2015) looks even bleaker:
Hong Kong #1 with 83.74 years, than Japan with 83.31, and Italy with
82.84 while the U.S. is #43 with 78.88.


Tell us more about the competent doctors.


We USAians drive more (miles/hours per year), drive faster,
do more drugs with or without alcohol and engage in other
oft-fatal behaviors more than many populations.


More miles (kilometers) yes but highway fatalities? I believe that
Thailand is one of the front runners in that race with 74.6 fatalities
per 100,000 autos. Per capita it is 36.2/100,000 residents.

As for drug use I'm just not sure but we probably average 3 - 4 news
reports a month about "X million Ya Ba pills found in pickup truck"
(Ya Ba (crazy medicine) is the local name for tablets containing a
mixture of methamphetamine and caffeine.

We lose roughly 20,000 more people to ODs than to car wrecks
the last few years. Oh, you want to bring in health care? We
also kill more people in hospital-acquired infection than
car wrecks, too. Not 'infection' but _hospital acquired_
infection. They're pros!

And we wouldn't have it any other way!


:-) And your nation's expenditure for "defense" is higher then the
next eight nations in the entire world, combined. Nearly 3 times that
of China.

Didn't President Eisenhower once say something about that?

"In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition
of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the
military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of
misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight
of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We
should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable
citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and
military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so
that security and liberty may prosper together."

He also said :
"As we peer into society's future, we, you and I, and our government,
must avoid the impulse to live only for today, plundering for our own
ease and convenience the precious resources of tomorrow. We cannot
mortgage the material assets of our grandchildren without risking the
loss also of their political and spiritual heritage. We want democracy
to survive for all generations to come, not to become the insolvent
phantom of tomorrow.

Ah, but of course he was an old fashioned sort of fellow and not "New
Age" at all, why he never even had a hand phone to peer at. What did
he know?


Ding dong Kim Jong-un just detonated a hydrogen bomb that can fit on the warhead of an ICBM that he also just tested.

Now maybe you don't think that the military spending of this country is worthwhile but we do.
  #65  
Old September 3rd 17, 05:44 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,345
Default Jobst

On Saturday, September 2, 2017 at 8:29:00 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:

I believe that your, much described, brain damage is showing up in
your posts. What in the world does the amount that a U.S. doctor is
paid have to do with the wealth of a Thai doctor.


I'm becoming more and more sure that your brain damage is effecting
your posts as we aren't discussing a socialized medicine system. In
fact in rereading the above I mentioned "government service", "private
hospitals" and that "doctors that work in government hospitals have
private clinics".


Exactly what are you arguing? A Thai doctor can't even afford an American medical education unless after graduation he works in America for a couple of years.
  #67  
Old September 4th 17, 12:02 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Jobst

On 9/3/2017 2:32 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/2/2017 6:30 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/2/2017 4:49 PM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per :
High numbers of deaths from hospital acquired infections
really only tells you that the general population is not
very healthy.

And in the USA that is primarily from a large illegal and
legal immigrant population that has arrived from
countries that do not have particularly good health.

How about antibiotic-resistant strains of bacteria like
MERSA?


That's the fault of the liberals. Tom will explain how.



He may well, but it's an equal-time offense.

One of our customers heads up the antibiotic abuse research section at
Inst. Pasteur in France. He corroborates a Milwaukee GP's complaint that
mothers bring in children with viruses and insist on antibiotics right
now. No prescription = 'bad doctor', a label which can devastate a
clinic's practice as the mothers all gossip. Similar problem with
opiates for every little thing. Without an educated populace the
gatekeepers are powerless and wishing for an educated population is a
fool's dream. And here we are.


I've thought about that when battling my annual upper respiratory
maladies. Without going into too much detail, it's been a recurring
problem, sometimes getting quite bad. After a couple years of
recurrences, my physician became very quick to prescribe antibiotics for
me, even though there's been doubt about bacteria vs. virus vs. allergy.

As you've said, any particular physician experiences a downside to
saying "no" when antibiotics are requested. And for the particular
physician, there really isn't an upside to saying "no" - he gets no
bonus points. This means that even in the absence of pleading, if
there's some small chance antibiotics might work, he may as well
prescribe them.

The good news is this problem is temporary. Once the bacteria adapt
sufficiently, they'll reduce our population density to the point where
contagion is much less of an issue. Nobody will worry much about
over-prescribed antibiotics, or lots of other modern problems. It'll be
a golden age!

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #68  
Old September 4th 17, 12:55 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,447
Default Jobst

On 9/3/2017 6:02 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/3/2017 2:32 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/2/2017 6:30 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/2/2017 4:49 PM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per :
High numbers of deaths from hospital acquired infections
really only tells you that the general population is not
very healthy.

And in the USA that is primarily from a large illegal and
legal immigrant population that has arrived from
countries that do not have particularly good health.

How about antibiotic-resistant strains of bacteria like
MERSA?

That's the fault of the liberals. Tom will explain how.



He may well, but it's an equal-time offense.

One of our customers heads up the antibiotic abuse
research section at Inst. Pasteur in France. He
corroborates a Milwaukee GP's complaint that mothers bring
in children with viruses and insist on antibiotics right
now. No prescription = 'bad doctor', a label which can
devastate a clinic's practice as the mothers all gossip.
Similar problem with opiates for every little thing.
Without an educated populace the gatekeepers are powerless
and wishing for an educated population is a fool's dream.
And here we are.


I've thought about that when battling my annual upper
respiratory maladies. Without going into too much detail,
it's been a recurring problem, sometimes getting quite bad.
After a couple years of recurrences, my physician became
very quick to prescribe antibiotics for me, even though
there's been doubt about bacteria vs. virus vs. allergy.

As you've said, any particular physician experiences a
downside to saying "no" when antibiotics are requested. And
for the particular physician, there really isn't an upside
to saying "no" - he gets no bonus points. This means that
even in the absence of pleading, if there's some small
chance antibiotics might work, he may as well prescribe them.

The good news is this problem is temporary. Once the
bacteria adapt sufficiently, they'll reduce our population
density to the point where contagion is much less of an
issue. Nobody will worry much about over-prescribed
antibiotics, or lots of other modern problems. It'll be a
golden age!


Plus livestock antibiotics. Excellent payout for the grower;
low cost, faster bigger growth. Eventually you're evolving
some really hardy bugs though...

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #69  
Old September 4th 17, 03:17 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,697
Default Jobst

On Sun, 3 Sep 2017 09:18:20 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Saturday, September 2, 2017 at 7:03:38 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 02 Sep 2017 08:17:03 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 9/1/2017 9:30 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 1 Sep 2017 10:10:59 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Friday, September 1, 2017 at 9:13:45 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, September 1, 2017 at 7:15:19 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, August 31, 2017 at 7:39:26 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:

Are you telling me that a Thai can go to a clinic and have a $500,000 panoramic x-ray taken of his jaw? How many of these clinics are there? How many doctors trained in doing a sinus lift that requires donated bone material to achieve? That requires three different medications before and afterwards top stave off infections?

Yup. Anything that the doctor orders. Specifically a panoramic x-ray I
do not know but if the government hospitals have the device then yes.
free.

You don't seem to be following me John. The numbers and costs of spectacular medical instruments in the USA is staggering. And these will often be in a private doctor's office. These are not available in Thailand any more than they are in European villages or even in Great Britain outside of the major cities.

The weakness of socialized medicine is that it cannot afford the advancements.

Hmmm. Seems like Thailand has a thriving MRI medical tourism business.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=-nt4-tavqXU

MRI units are more common in Japan than the US.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ts-by-country/ Note that Japan has "socialized insurance" and the cost of medical care is regulated. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health...ystem_in_Japan

Panoramic x-ray machines are mundane. You can buy on on the internet. Get a cheap one for home: https://www.dentalplanet.com/x-ray-e...CABEgLdvPD_BwE

Amazingly, people in other countries -- almost all of which have socialized medicine and/or socialized insurance with highly regulated medicine -- live long and useful lives. https://www.forbes.com/sites/danmunr.../#7a03c90e576f http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publ.../mirror-mirror We're dead last compared to a dozen commie-socialist countries.

Jay - does looking at the seating capacity of the waiting area for that MRI clinic not ring a very loud bell? And exactly what do you think that MRI's do? They were developed to display interior muscle composition and they really aren't very effective without contrast material injected into the proper area.

There are two and a half times as many doctors per 100,000 people in the US as in Japan. Three times what Great Britain has. Twenty times the doctors per 100,000 in Thailand.

What in God's name makes you think that people go through years and years of training to make almost nothing under socialized medicine?

No matter HOW cheap it is, if you cannot find a competent doctor to treat you you have nothing.

Life expectancy in the world's nations seems to be the highest in
Japan with a (combined male/female) life expectancy of 83.7 years.
Switzerland is next with 83.4 years, then Singapore with 83.1.

The U.K. is #20 with 81.2 years and the U.S. is #31 with 79.3, which
is between Costa Rica with 70.6 and Cuba with 79.1.

Life expectancy at birth (2015) looks even bleaker:
Hong Kong #1 with 83.74 years, than Japan with 83.31, and Italy with
82.84 while the U.S. is #43 with 78.88.


Tell us more about the competent doctors.

We USAians drive more (miles/hours per year), drive faster,
do more drugs with or without alcohol and engage in other
oft-fatal behaviors more than many populations.


More miles (kilometers) yes but highway fatalities? I believe that
Thailand is one of the front runners in that race with 74.6 fatalities
per 100,000 autos. Per capita it is 36.2/100,000 residents.

As for drug use I'm just not sure but we probably average 3 - 4 news
reports a month about "X million Ya Ba pills found in pickup truck"
(Ya Ba (crazy medicine) is the local name for tablets containing a
mixture of methamphetamine and caffeine.

We lose roughly 20,000 more people to ODs than to car wrecks
the last few years. Oh, you want to bring in health care? We
also kill more people in hospital-acquired infection than
car wrecks, too. Not 'infection' but _hospital acquired_
infection. They're pros!

And we wouldn't have it any other way!


:-) And your nation's expenditure for "defense" is higher then the
next eight nations in the entire world, combined. Nearly 3 times that
of China.

Didn't President Eisenhower once say something about that?

"In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition
of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the
military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of
misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight
of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We
should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable
citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and
military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so
that security and liberty may prosper together."

He also said :
"As we peer into society's future, we, you and I, and our government,
must avoid the impulse to live only for today, plundering for our own
ease and convenience the precious resources of tomorrow. We cannot
mortgage the material assets of our grandchildren without risking the
loss also of their political and spiritual heritage. We want democracy
to survive for all generations to come, not to become the insolvent
phantom of tomorrow.

Ah, but of course he was an old fashioned sort of fellow and not "New
Age" at all, why he never even had a hand phone to peer at. What did
he know?


Ding dong Kim Jong-un just detonated a hydrogen bomb that can fit on the warhead of an ICBM that he also just tested.

Now maybe you don't think that the military spending of this country is worthwhile but we do.


And exactly what does military spending have to do with preventing the
N. Koreans from having a nuclear weapon?

Given that they have it in spite of the fantastic amounts handed over
to the "defense department" it is obvious that it has done no good at
all.

Maybe if the had given the military more it would have worked better?
--
Cheers,

John B.

  #70  
Old September 4th 17, 03:33 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tim McNamara
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,945
Default Jobst

On Sat, 02 Sep 2017 15:02:04 -0500, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/2/2017 2:37 PM, wrote:

I worked on many medical instruments and the company managers didn't
want us to even go into hospitals during tests. Every possible
bacteria is floating around ANY hospital. High numbers of deaths from
hospital acquired infections really only tells you that the general
population is not very healthy.

And in the USA that is primarily from a large illegal and legal
immigrant population that has arrived from countries that do not have
particularly good health.


That's true, and historically very high at the moment.


No, it's not true that legal and illegal immigrants are to blame for
this. Most of the burden of health care costs in America are the result
of treating chronic illnesses: hypertension, hyperlipidemia, obesity,
diabetes, COPD, arthritis, etc. Most of those are "natural born"
Americans



The last time foreign-born people living here were at this high a
proportion,


Got a cite for that? 'Cuz immigrants been coming to the US every day of
my life so far. It's not like that has ever stopped in the past 58
years. Just with back of the envelope figuring, which may no tbe
accurate, it seems like the percentage of imigrants in the US is now
lower than during the majority of US history. That's how your family
got here. And mine. Famine Irish on my Dad's side; not sure my Mom's
German ancestors came to the US. Every human living in America is the
descendant of an immigrant.

...we ended up with The Chinese Exclusion Act as a reaction
and much similar legislation through to the Johnson Reed Act after
which immigration was minimal for the next 30 years.


American companies actively sought out Chinese workers to come to the
US- having agents in China sign them up, provide transportation to the
US, etc. That was how the western half of the transcontinental railroad
got built. Without that, there would have been a fraction of
immigration from China than there was. They came because they were
needed and because they were cheaper than hiring white people.
 




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