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#31
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Scotland's cycling tax
On 2009-09-14, Tom Crispin wrote:
On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 18:37:44 +0100, Matt B wrote: [...] Why? A better parallel would be to charge tax at an unreasonable rate on /all/ bikes, then pick a category - those made entirely from sustainable materials perhaps, to set a lower rate on. You may, for once, be onto something there. Increase VAT to 20%, and zero rate VAT for products made entirely from recycled or sustainable materials, with the onus on the manafacturer to prove that the product is made from recycled or sustainable materials. Bikes are made of recycled and sustainable materials anyway. Aluminium and iron (steel) are the two most abundant metals in the Earth's crust. It doesn't get much more sustainable than that. Al and steel have also both been recycled for years, long before it was fashionable to pretend to recycle everything, because they're actually economical to recycle. |
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#32
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Scotland's cycling tax
Brimstone wrote:
The main reason for metalling roads was dust, which is a factor of both the pneumatic tyre and much heavier and faster traffic. I don't believe there was a significant dust problem attributed to cyclists. I was once told on one of these newsgroups that it was cyclists who started the idea of road surfaces being sealed. Cyclists lobbied for the roads to be improved but they never achieved the political clout to get anything done about it. There was a lot of pressure from rural communities for something to be done about the dust raised by motorists. -- Guy |
#33
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Scotland's cycling tax
Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:
Brimstone wrote: The main reason for metalling roads was dust, which is a factor of both the pneumatic tyre and much heavier and faster traffic. I don't believe there was a significant dust problem attributed to cyclists. I was once told on one of these newsgroups that it was cyclists who started the idea of road surfaces being sealed. Cyclists lobbied for the roads to be improved but they never achieved the political clout to get anything done about it. There was a lot of pressure from rural communities for something to be done about the dust raised by motorists. Thinking about it, I suspect that's closer to what was posted previously. |
#34
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Scotland's cycling tax
On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 10:32:13 +0100, lardyninja
wrote: http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com...ver.5642372.jp Good for them - not before time Published Date: 13 September 2009 By Tom Peterkin Scottish Political Editor A ROAD tax on cyclists is being considered by Scottish Government civil servants. The prospect of cyclists paying a charge, like motorists, to use roads comes in a document outlining the Scottish Government's vision for cycling. The draft Cycling Action Plan for Scotland (CAPS), which has been released for public consultation, aims to ensure that, by 2020, 10 per cent of all journeys in Scotland are by bike. But it also raises the question of cyclists making a financial contribution to roads maintenance. The document states: "Should all road users pay road tax? If so, how much should it be for cyclists and how could it be enforced?" If introduced, cyclists might be forced to register cycles with their local authority and pay annual amounts, as motorists do with vehicle excise duty. The move comes as ministers are under pressure to come up with innovative ways to maintain public spending in the face of deep and sustained cuts due to the increasing national debt. John Swinney has given his strongest signal yet that the Scottish Government will make public sector cuts in the draft 2010-11 Budget this week. The finance secretary admitted that public bodies had to be "streamlined" as he looked ahead to the publication of the bill on Thursday. Last week, Scotland on Sunday revealed from a leaked document that civil servants are planning for the government to introduce a 5 per cent cut in public sector spending, as well as possible tax increases, to bring the country's finances under control. The document said officials believed that blanket cuts of £1.5 billion across every government area would "only be part of the solution". The road tax suggestion has angered cycling organisations and environmental groups. Last night Green Party leader Patrick Harvie said: "Cyclists already have to pay through their council tax for the damage which others cause to Scotland's local roads, so ministers should drop this proposal and instead put more effort into supporting cycling and investing in safer cycle routes. "If the SNP actually try to impose this absurd tax, then the non-payment campaign will be immediate and unstoppable." The document does not make clear how much cyclists would have to pay or how it would be implemented, but Scotland on Sunday understands discussions have centred on registration plates for bikes – a proposal floated by Ken Livingstone when he was London mayor, although the plan was never adopted. Public finance expert Richard Kerley said the most likely method of implementing the tax would be to register all bicycles and making it a legal requirement for owners to have a registration document. The tax would then be paid yearly or six-monthly in a similar way to vehicle excise duty. Professor Kerley, the vice-principal of Queen Margaret University, said: "Cyclists are not exactly causing a lot of wear and tear, but if the government is seeking to increase taxation, it would be one way of doing it. The cycle tax has been criticised in many of the responses to the CAPS consultation document. The consultation has just closed and later this year the government will produce a report that will determine cycling policy, based on responses. Ian Aiken, chief executive of the government-backed Cycling Scotland and a member of the CAPS board that produced the paper, said: ""Cycling Scotland's view is cyclists should not be taxed, but it is important to ask the question." Cycling Scotland's official response argued that bikes were carbon neutral and so should be exempt from vehicle taxation, levels of which are based on carbon dioxide emissions. Gary Bell of Spokes, the Scottish cycling pressure group with 1,000 members, said: "Many cycle owners already pay road tax because they own a car. What about the practicalities? Are you trying to collect road tax from three-year-olds on tricycles? This document is trying to increase the number of cyclists and here they are constructing a barrier to prevent people getting a bicycle. It is utterly laughable." Peter Hayman, another CAPS board member and the Scottish representative of the Cyclists Touring Club, claimed the tax suggestion was added to the paper without his knowledge. "I think this went in after we saw the final draft," he said. "The board saw the guts of the document, then the Scottish Government people put it together with some extra quotes, which we never saw. I don't think it should have been there because it distracts from the real question, which is: how do you get more people cycling? "It would be completely impractical. Something like that would cost ten times the total investment in cycling to administer. The message missing from this plan is thatit is a great way of getting around that's pleasurable." A Scottish Government spokeswoman said: "Scottish ministers have no plans to charge cyclists for using the roads in Scotland." -- Latest DfT Figures: Passenger casualty rates by mode Per billion passenger kilometers: Killed or seriously injured: Pedal Cyclists : 527 Pedestrians 371 All casualties: Pedal Cyclists : 3494 Pedestrians : 1631 Which is more dangerous? |
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Scotland's cycling tax
lardyninja wrote:
http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com...ver.5642372.jp Would this tax only apply to cycles purchased in Scotland, or would it also apply to bikes from other EU countries? If a French national took his bike on holiday to Scotland, would he have to pay road tax for the duration?, or could he claim it contravenes the Vienna Convention on road traffic, and possibly some EU rules. Would simply slapping a sticker on the bike proclaiming it as coming from France absolve him of paying this tax? |
#36
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Scotland's cycling tax
Tom Crispin wrote:
On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 18:33:05 +0100, Matt B wrote: Why should "impact on infrastructure" be taken into account for bikes - it isn't for any other vehicle? Yes it is. Larger vehicles, within bands, pay more VED than smaller vehicles. Though there are some exceptional cases: veteran cars and low emitting vehicles, etc. Let's look at some examples for modern vehicles then - 12 months VED, highest first: - Ford S-Max 2.3 1.7 tonne - £405. - 62 (or more) seater bus 15 tonne - £165. - HGV articulated up to 34 tonne - £160. - Light goods vehicle 3.5 tonne - £125. - VW Passat Bluemotion Estate - £120. - Motorcycle 601 cc - £66. - Toyota Prius saloon 1.4 tonne - £0. -- Matt B |
#37
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Scotland's cycling tax
On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 23:33:04 +0100, Matt B
wrote: Tom Crispin wrote: On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 18:33:05 +0100, Matt B wrote: Why should "impact on infrastructure" be taken into account for bikes - it isn't for any other vehicle? Yes it is. Larger vehicles, within bands, pay more VED than smaller vehicles. Though there are some exceptional cases: veteran cars and low emitting vehicles, etc. Let's look at some examples for modern vehicles then - 12 months VED, highest first: - Ford S-Max 2.3 1.7 tonne - £405. - 62 (or more) seater bus 15 tonne - £165. - HGV articulated up to 34 tonne - £160. - Light goods vehicle 3.5 tonne - £125. - VW Passat Bluemotion Estate - £120. - Motorcycle 601 cc - £66. - Toyota Prius saloon 1.4 tonne - £0. Thank you for that. I hope you didn't spend too much time finding out that information. So VED is now based on a function of unladen weight and CO2 emissions. Under both criteria bicycles would come out as £0 VED. |
#38
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Scotland's cycling tax
On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 03:17:53 -0700 (PDT), "Just zis Guy, you know?"
wrote: On Sep 14, 10:32*am, lardyninja wrote: http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com...ment-in-talks-... I don't have a problem with cyclists paying proportionally for the cost of roads. Road tax (VED) is not a tax for roads - and hence your argument is pointless. (Any chance ..... ?) -- I encourage my children to wear helmets. (Guy Chapman) I have never said that I encourage my children to wear helmets. (Guy Chapman) |
#39
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Scotland's cycling tax
Tom Crispin wrote:
On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 23:33:04 +0100, Matt B wrote: Tom Crispin wrote: On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 18:33:05 +0100, Matt B wrote: Why should "impact on infrastructure" be taken into account for bikes - it isn't for any other vehicle? Yes it is. Larger vehicles, within bands, pay more VED than smaller vehicles. Though there are some exceptional cases: veteran cars and low emitting vehicles, etc. Let's look at some examples for modern vehicles then - 12 months VED, highest first: - Ford S-Max 2.3 1.7 tonne - £405. - 62 (or more) seater bus 15 tonne - £165. - HGV articulated up to 34 tonne - £160. - Light goods vehicle 3.5 tonne - £125. - VW Passat Bluemotion Estate - £120. - Motorcycle 601 cc - £66. - Toyota Prius saloon 1.4 tonne - £0. Thank you for that. I hope you didn't spend too much time finding out that information. So VED is now based on a function of unladen weight and CO2 emissions. Under both criteria bicycles would come out as £0 VED. I can't see a relationship to either. That would imply that a 34 tonne truck @ £160 must emit a good deal less CO2 than a 2.3 litre Ford family car @ £405. It's true that recent private cars and small vans in isolation /do/ have a notional link to theoretical CO2 emission, but a car paying a higher rate may actually emit less than a car paying a lower rate as mileage isn't taken into account. There is no link between weight and VED for cars - even for pre-CO2-rated cars for which there are 2 bands based on engine capacity alone. -- Matt B |
#40
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Scotland's cycling tax
mileburner wrote:
"lardyninja" wrote in message ... http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com...ver.5642372.jp In principle, I think the idea is good. Someone has to pay for the roads so howsabout starting with the people who use them? ... In fact, the more I think about it, we should not be paying for this damage by way of council tax, but higher rates of VED should be levied to cover the cost. That way cyclists and pedestrians will not be contributing to the damage to roads caused by vehicles. Presumably you would therefore also question why 10% of the cost of the NHS, 10% of the education costs, 10% of the police costs, in fact 10% of /all/ costs paid for out of general taxation (including the massive subsidy which keeps councils taxes down) are paid for from motoring taxes. -- Matt B |
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