A Cycling & bikes forum. CycleBanter.com

Go Back   Home » CycleBanter.com forum » Regional Cycling » UK
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Scotland's cycling tax



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old September 14th 09, 09:42 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Ben C
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,084
Default Scotland's cycling tax

On 2009-09-14, Tom Crispin wrote:
On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 18:37:44 +0100, Matt B
wrote:

[...]
Why? A better parallel would be to charge tax at an unreasonable rate
on /all/ bikes, then pick a category - those made entirely from
sustainable materials perhaps, to set a lower rate on.


You may, for once, be onto something there.

Increase VAT to 20%, and zero rate VAT for products made entirely from
recycled or sustainable materials, with the onus on the manafacturer
to prove that the product is made from recycled or sustainable
materials.


Bikes are made of recycled and sustainable materials anyway.

Aluminium and iron (steel) are the two most abundant metals in the
Earth's crust. It doesn't get much more sustainable than that.

Al and steel have also both been recycled for years, long before it was
fashionable to pretend to recycle everything, because they're actually
economical to recycle.
Ads
  #32  
Old September 14th 09, 10:18 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Just zis Guy, you know?[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,166
Default Scotland's cycling tax

Brimstone wrote:

The main reason for metalling roads was dust, which is a factor of
both the pneumatic tyre and much heavier and faster traffic. I don't
believe there was a significant dust problem attributed to cyclists.


I was once told on one of these newsgroups that it was cyclists who
started the idea of road surfaces being sealed.


Cyclists lobbied for the roads to be improved but they never achieved the
political clout to get anything done about it. There was a lot of pressure
from rural communities for something to be done about the dust raised by
motorists.
--
Guy

  #33  
Old September 14th 09, 10:41 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Brimstone[_8_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,237
Default Scotland's cycling tax

Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:
Brimstone wrote:

The main reason for metalling roads was dust, which is a factor of
both the pneumatic tyre and much heavier and faster traffic. I
don't believe there was a significant dust problem attributed to
cyclists.


I was once told on one of these newsgroups that it was cyclists who
started the idea of road surfaces being sealed.


Cyclists lobbied for the roads to be improved but they never achieved
the political clout to get anything done about it. There was a lot of
pressure from rural communities for something to be done about the
dust raised by motorists.


Thinking about it, I suspect that's closer to what was posted previously.


  #34  
Old September 14th 09, 10:47 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling,uk.transport
Judith M Smith
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,735
Default Scotland's cycling tax

On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 10:32:13 +0100, lardyninja
wrote:



http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com...ver.5642372.jp


Good for them - not before time

Published Date: 13 September 2009
By Tom Peterkin Scottish Political Editor
A ROAD tax on cyclists is being considered by Scottish Government
civil servants.
The prospect of cyclists paying a charge, like motorists, to use roads
comes in a document outlining the Scottish Government's vision for
cycling.

The draft Cycling Action Plan for Scotland (CAPS), which has been
released for public consultation, aims to ensure that, by 2020, 10 per
cent of all journeys in Scotland are by bike.

But it also raises the question of cyclists making a financial
contribution to roads maintenance. The document states: "Should all
road users pay road tax? If so, how much should it be for cyclists and
how could it be enforced?"

If introduced, cyclists might be forced to register cycles with their
local authority and pay annual amounts, as motorists do with vehicle
excise duty.

The move comes as ministers are under pressure to come up with
innovative ways to maintain public spending in the face of deep and
sustained cuts due to the increasing national debt.

John Swinney has given his strongest signal yet that the Scottish
Government will make public sector cuts in the draft 2010-11 Budget
this week. The finance secretary admitted that public bodies had to be
"streamlined" as he looked ahead to the publication of the bill on
Thursday. Last week, Scotland on Sunday revealed from a leaked
document that civil servants are planning for the government to
introduce a 5 per cent cut in public sector spending, as well as
possible tax increases, to bring the country's finances under control.

The document said officials believed that blanket cuts of £1.5 billion
across every government area would "only be part of the solution".

The road tax suggestion has angered cycling organisations and
environmental groups. Last night Green Party leader Patrick Harvie
said: "Cyclists already have to pay through their council tax for the
damage which others cause to Scotland's local roads, so ministers
should drop this proposal and instead put more effort into supporting
cycling and investing in safer cycle routes.

"If the SNP actually try to impose this absurd tax, then the
non-payment campaign will be immediate and unstoppable."

The document does not make clear how much cyclists would have to pay
or how it would be implemented, but Scotland on Sunday understands
discussions have centred on registration plates for bikes – a proposal
floated by Ken Livingstone when he was London mayor, although the plan
was never adopted.

Public finance expert Richard Kerley said the most likely method of
implementing the tax would be to register all bicycles and making it a
legal requirement for owners to have a registration document. The tax
would then be paid yearly or six-monthly in a similar way to vehicle
excise duty.

Professor Kerley, the vice-principal of Queen Margaret University,
said: "Cyclists are not exactly causing a lot of wear and tear, but if
the government is seeking to increase taxation, it would be one way of
doing it.

The cycle tax has been criticised in many of the responses to the CAPS
consultation document.

The consultation has just closed and later this year the government
will produce a report that will determine cycling policy, based on
responses.

Ian Aiken, chief executive of the government-backed Cycling Scotland
and a member of the CAPS board that produced the paper, said:
""Cycling Scotland's view is cyclists should not be taxed, but it is
important to ask the question."

Cycling Scotland's official response argued that bikes were carbon
neutral and so should be exempt from vehicle taxation, levels of which
are based on carbon dioxide emissions.

Gary Bell of Spokes, the Scottish cycling pressure group with 1,000
members, said: "Many cycle owners already pay road tax because they
own a car. What about the practicalities? Are you trying to collect
road tax from three-year-olds on tricycles? This document is trying to
increase the number of cyclists and here they are constructing a
barrier to prevent people getting a bicycle. It is utterly laughable."

Peter Hayman, another CAPS board member and the Scottish
representative of the Cyclists Touring Club, claimed the tax
suggestion was added to the paper without his knowledge.

"I think this went in after we saw the final draft," he said. "The
board saw the guts of the document, then the Scottish Government
people put it together with some extra quotes, which we never saw. I
don't think it should have been there because it distracts from the
real question, which is: how do you get more people cycling?

"It would be completely impractical. Something like that would cost
ten times the total investment in cycling to administer. The message
missing from this plan is thatit is a great way of getting around
that's pleasurable."

A Scottish Government spokeswoman said: "Scottish ministers have no
plans to charge cyclists for using the roads in Scotland."
--
Latest DfT Figures: Passenger casualty rates by mode Per billion passenger kilometers:
Killed or seriously injured: Pedal Cyclists : 527 Pedestrians 371
All casualties: Pedal Cyclists : 3494 Pedestrians : 1631
Which is more dangerous?
  #35  
Old September 14th 09, 10:56 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Martin[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 551
Default Scotland's cycling tax

lardyninja wrote:


http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com...ver.5642372.jp


Would this tax only apply to cycles purchased in Scotland, or would it
also apply to bikes from other EU countries? If a French national took
his bike on holiday to Scotland, would he have to pay road tax for the
duration?, or could he claim it contravenes the Vienna Convention on
road traffic, and possibly some EU rules.
Would simply slapping a sticker on the bike proclaiming it as coming
from France absolve him of paying this tax?
  #36  
Old September 14th 09, 11:33 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Matt B
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,927
Default Scotland's cycling tax

Tom Crispin wrote:
On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 18:33:05 +0100, Matt B
wrote:

Why should "impact on infrastructure" be taken into account for bikes -
it isn't for any other vehicle?


Yes it is. Larger vehicles, within bands, pay more VED than smaller
vehicles. Though there are some exceptional cases: veteran cars and
low emitting vehicles, etc.


Let's look at some examples for modern vehicles then - 12 months VED,
highest first:
- Ford S-Max 2.3 1.7 tonne - £405.
- 62 (or more) seater bus 15 tonne - £165.
- HGV articulated up to 34 tonne - £160.
- Light goods vehicle 3.5 tonne - £125.
- VW Passat Bluemotion Estate - £120.
- Motorcycle 601 cc - £66.
- Toyota Prius saloon 1.4 tonne - £0.

--
Matt B
  #37  
Old September 15th 09, 06:45 AM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Tom Crispin
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,229
Default Scotland's cycling tax

On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 23:33:04 +0100, Matt B
wrote:

Tom Crispin wrote:
On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 18:33:05 +0100, Matt B
wrote:

Why should "impact on infrastructure" be taken into account for bikes -
it isn't for any other vehicle?


Yes it is. Larger vehicles, within bands, pay more VED than smaller
vehicles. Though there are some exceptional cases: veteran cars and
low emitting vehicles, etc.


Let's look at some examples for modern vehicles then - 12 months VED,
highest first:
- Ford S-Max 2.3 1.7 tonne - £405.
- 62 (or more) seater bus 15 tonne - £165.
- HGV articulated up to 34 tonne - £160.
- Light goods vehicle 3.5 tonne - £125.
- VW Passat Bluemotion Estate - £120.
- Motorcycle 601 cc - £66.
- Toyota Prius saloon 1.4 tonne - £0.


Thank you for that. I hope you didn't spend too much time finding out
that information.

So VED is now based on a function of unladen weight and CO2 emissions.
Under both criteria bicycles would come out as £0 VED.
  #38  
Old September 15th 09, 07:14 AM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Judith M Smith
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,735
Default Scotland's cycling tax

On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 03:17:53 -0700 (PDT), "Just zis Guy, you know?"
wrote:

On Sep 14, 10:32*am, lardyninja wrote:
http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com...ment-in-talks-...


I don't have a problem with cyclists paying proportionally for the
cost of roads.


Road tax (VED) is not a tax for roads - and hence your argument is
pointless.

(Any chance ..... ?)


--
I encourage my children to wear helmets. (Guy Chapman)
I have never said that I encourage my children to wear helmets. (Guy
Chapman)
  #39  
Old September 15th 09, 07:25 AM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Matt B
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,927
Default Scotland's cycling tax

Tom Crispin wrote:
On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 23:33:04 +0100, Matt B
wrote:

Tom Crispin wrote:
On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 18:33:05 +0100, Matt B
wrote:

Why should "impact on infrastructure" be taken into account for bikes -
it isn't for any other vehicle?
Yes it is. Larger vehicles, within bands, pay more VED than smaller
vehicles. Though there are some exceptional cases: veteran cars and
low emitting vehicles, etc.

Let's look at some examples for modern vehicles then - 12 months VED,
highest first:
- Ford S-Max 2.3 1.7 tonne - £405.
- 62 (or more) seater bus 15 tonne - £165.
- HGV articulated up to 34 tonne - £160.
- Light goods vehicle 3.5 tonne - £125.
- VW Passat Bluemotion Estate - £120.
- Motorcycle 601 cc - £66.
- Toyota Prius saloon 1.4 tonne - £0.


Thank you for that. I hope you didn't spend too much time finding out
that information.

So VED is now based on a function of unladen weight and CO2 emissions.
Under both criteria bicycles would come out as £0 VED.


I can't see a relationship to either. That would imply that a 34 tonne
truck @ £160 must emit a good deal less CO2 than a 2.3 litre Ford family
car @ £405.

It's true that recent private cars and small vans in isolation /do/ have
a notional link to theoretical CO2 emission, but a car paying a higher
rate may actually emit less than a car paying a lower rate as mileage
isn't taken into account. There is no link between weight and VED for
cars - even for pre-CO2-rated cars for which there are 2 bands based on
engine capacity alone.

--
Matt B
  #40  
Old September 15th 09, 07:41 AM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Matt B
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,927
Default Scotland's cycling tax

mileburner wrote:
"lardyninja" wrote in message
...

http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com...ver.5642372.jp


In principle, I think the idea is good. Someone has to pay for the roads so
howsabout starting with the people who use them?
...
In fact, the more I think about it, we should not be paying for this damage
by way of council tax, but higher rates of VED should be levied to cover the
cost. That way cyclists and pedestrians will not be contributing to the
damage to roads caused by vehicles.


Presumably you would therefore also question why 10% of the cost of the
NHS, 10% of the education costs, 10% of the police costs, in fact 10% of
/all/ costs paid for out of general taxation (including the massive
subsidy which keeps councils taxes down) are paid for from motoring taxes.

--
Matt B
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Mountain Cycling in Bali! Cycling Tours that offer true off roadmountain bike riding [email protected] Mountain Biking 0 July 5th 08 05:41 AM
Amy Gillett Safe Cycling Foundation - Husband asks cycling legend to lend a hand cfsmtb Australia 1 September 16th 05 06:25 AM
L.E. Cycling Prints benefit non-profit Cycling Group Gary Coles UK 2 April 3rd 05 08:59 PM
Cycling Art prints benefits non-profit Cycling Group Gary Coles Unicycling 0 April 3rd 05 08:09 PM
ten year ban for scotland's worst driver David Martin UK 173 May 25th 04 02:14 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:39 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 CycleBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.