Will e-bikes expand cycling?

On Tuesday, November 5, 2019 at 6:01:07 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/4/2019 9:17 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/4/2019 1:44 PM, pH wrote:
Stop me before I post again.....

Okay, last time, then I'm going outside.

Here are *26* kits that were around in 2014.
There was a TdF rider who was accused of using a motor
assist some years back, wasn't there? Kit Number 10 in
this list could have been the culprit if true.

pH in Aptos

https://www.electricbike.com/mid-drive-kits/

I'm curious about how the Yellow Jersey bike shop is
responding to this ebike trend.

Andy?



We walked away a few years ago when we were unable to
provide any service beyond "replace entire system" to
customers with products we sold. There's a current front
page article in our industry news on that very subject:

https://read.dmtmag.com/i/1179600-no...ew s+Audience

Lower right, "E-bike Service Can Mean Saying 'No' "

This situation may well change, and our opinion will change,
but despite the hype the product is generally not ready for
average consumers IMHO.

We're very good with mechanical, machining, welding/brazing
processes and electromechanical systems such as classic
autos and motorcycles. E-bike troubles are often not in
those realms, rather software, sensors, semiconductor
circuits, motor controller systems, batteries and
connectors/fixtures of the lowest orders.

It's one thing for the importer to reply in text that you
have to replace the entire system. It's quite another to
look a man in the eye and say that.

That edition also includes an article on my latest pet peeve, the thirty-foot long electric assist mom-bike. The newest PDX fad and space consumer -- on the road and in the racks. Some of those things are super-charged, too, so dopes with little kids and little cycling experience are doing 20mph in cramped facilities.

OT, this is the first time in 60 years we have not had rain during the first week of November. It's dry and clear, so last year's hatch of cyclists has not died off yet. I'm actually looking forward to the bad weather. It usually culls the herd, leaving the relatively hard-core who tend to be skilled (or at least devoted) cyclists, but who knows -- maybe the eBikers will hang in there, continuing to be a menace to us non-motorized folks.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 11/5/2019 2:11 AM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 5 Nov 2019 03:34:13 -0000 (UTC), Duane
wrote:

John B. wrote:
On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 10:07:23 -0500, Duane
wrote:

On 04/11/2019 9:51 a.m., jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, November 4, 2019 at 3:11:46 AM UTC-8, Duane wrote:
Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, 3 November 2019 21:27:16 UTC-5, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 01:45:33 -0000 (UTC), news18
wrote:

On Sat, 02 Nov 2019 11:37:59 -0700, wb6dwp wrote:


(Apparently electric motors like to spin fast and are more efficient at
high rpm.)

This is why I've only vaguely followed e-bikes for decades. They were of
no use to slow riders. The only result of riding slow would be to burn
out the batteries from high discharge rates.

Internal combustion vehicles suffer from the same malady. Thus the
"transmission" fitted to nearly all of them. Machinery using
electrical motors almost invariably use a speed reduction system of
some sort to reduce the high motor rpm to a lower speed that can be
utilized by the machinery.

The problem is solvable :-)

Or to be more accurate "the problem has been solved" see
https://electrek.co/2019/04/21/elect...ctric-bicycle/




The there are lots of great battery articles and howtos, etc. there as
well. The 21700 Tesla Li-ion cell appears to be making inroads along w/
the usual 18650 battery format technology.

Pricing will be interesting as a new local lithium miner has just moth
balled their mine claiming lack of demand. The last time I priced lithum
batteries for a project, it was $30K for lead and $300K for lithium, if i
could get them. The usual battery snake oil seems to have shifted to
thier sale now.


A few years ago during the latest gas crunch I thought I saw $5/gallon
gas on the horizon, so I bought a mid-drive kit from an Australian
company called "Elation".
250W motor, 10 AH 48V system. They have since gone out of business.

......
I find the 250watt motor will give me a steady 13-14mph or so on the
flat just for how it performs. The elation kit was throttle only, hot
pedal assist.

Over here, the mania, including bicycle bodies, screams pedelec only, but
a reading of the legislation does not say that. which is why eleation
might have shut up shop as the various states have now adopted the same
laws across tha nation,

(a lot of the European offerings also appear to be pedal assist only, no
throttle. Some have throttles also, I think..

The hint on pedelecs was to use a lower gear so the sensor that drove the
motor was fooled by the chain ring rotating. That was in reply to someone
who posted on a local forum that they had pushed(walked) a pedelec hire
trike for miles whenthe chain broke .He was told he should have just sat
on it and rotated the pedals.

That advice/hint would depend on the sensor still being based on crank
rotation and not some sensor pedalling

Anyway, lots of fun reading at "electricbike DOT com".

Sounds like a very useful site from your comments. Thanks.
--
cheers,

John B.

In keeping with the title of this thread. I don't think that E-bikes will
do much for bicycling per se. I DO think that E-bikes will do a LOT for
E-motor-biking though. Every E-bike Ive seen in my region was being used
as an Electric Motorbike NOT a bicycle.

Cheers


Yes but we’re we’re talking more about road bikes I think.

https://e2-sport.ca/product-category...bikes/?lang=en

People buying these are more likely sports cyclists trying to maintain
their levels.

But not trying to maintain the levels of their bank accounts. That
Fantic Passo Giau -- the cheap one of the bunch at $9K -- has assist up
to 16mph and weighs 30 pounds. It is basically a climbing motor.

-- Jay Beattie.


I know, the price is ridiculous. But look at the other two. Both more
expensive and sold out.

Perusing the Trek site it appears that recreational cycling is NOT a
sport for the impoverished :-)
--
cheers,

John B.



I think you confuse recreation and sport.

I don't think so. After all a sport can be a recreation. Think all the
millions that play golf, the majority of whom can't break 100.

I'm not convinced that golf ever qualified as a "sport." Even bowling is
more strenuous.

I put golf in the same category as billiards. Neither one is a "sport."

"sport /spôrt/ noun: sport; plural noun: sports
1. an activity involving physical exertion and skill..."


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 11/5/2019 1:29 AM, news18 wrote:
On Tue, 05 Nov 2019 03:34:13 +0000, Duane wrote:

John B. wrote:
On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 10:07:23 -0500, Duane
wrote:

On 04/11/2019 9:51 a.m., jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, November 4, 2019 at 3:11:46 AM UTC-8, Duane wrote:

I know, the price is ridiculous. But look at the other two. Both
more expensive and sold out.

Perusing the Trek site it appears that recreational cycling is NOT a
sport for the impoverished :-)
--
cheers,

John B.



I think you confuse recreation and sport.

Sadly not with the common expectation of what is required $$$ for
participaton in both.

Personally I preferr leisure bicycling,

I enjoy leisure cycling, social cycling, utility cycling, cycling
travel, fitness cycling, etc. etc. I used to enjoy some competitive
cycling but I'm of an age where my "fast" rides probably qualify only as
"moderate."

But I don't see myself adding a power unit, or even buying a new
super-light bike, to pretend to be as fast as I once was.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On Tuesday, November 5, 2019 at 2:01:07 PM UTC, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/4/2019 9:17 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/4/2019 1:44 PM, pH wrote:
Stop me before I post again.....

Okay, last time, then I'm going outside.

Here are *26* kits that were around in 2014.
There was a TdF rider who was accused of using a motor
assist some years back, wasn't there? Kit Number 10 in
this list could have been the culprit if true.

pH in Aptos

https://www.electricbike.com/mid-drive-kits/

I'm curious about how the Yellow Jersey bike shop is
responding to this ebike trend.

Andy?



We walked away a few years ago when we were unable to
provide any service beyond "replace entire system" to
customers with products we sold. There's a current front
page article in our industry news on that very subject:

https://read.dmtmag.com/i/1179600-no...ew s+Audience

Lower right, "E-bike Service Can Mean Saying 'No' "

This situation may well change, and our opinion will change,
but despite the hype the product is generally not ready for
average consumers IMHO.

We're very good with mechanical, machining, welding/brazing
processes and electromechanical systems such as classic
autos and motorcycles. E-bike troubles are often not in
those realms, rather software, sensors, semiconductor
circuits, motor controller systems, batteries and
connectors/fixtures of the lowest orders.

It's one thing for the importer to reply in text that you
have to replace the entire system. It's quite another to
look a man in the eye and say that.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971\

This:
E-bike troubles are often not in
those realms, rather software, sensors, semiconductor
circuits, motor controller systems, batteries and
connectors/fixtures of the lowest orders.

Actually, it's usually cheaper to replace all the electronic systems than to spend hours tracing a fault. And, too often to give extended warranties, it's pretty obvious that the electronics are at fault, because undoing a few screws will show you a melted mess of insulation and components. When I said loosely that my front motor packed it in, it turned out the motor was fine, but all the electronics had clocked out in, you guessed it, a molten mess. Thing is, the motor is actually the cheapest part of the installation (Bafang QSWXK motor only about 65 euro, complete system with battery near enough 500 euro), but the rest, besides being pricey, is best considered as a series of black boxes to be replaced as units because anything else will be more expensive in labour costs.

The Bafang BBS, now so common, in that regard could turn out to be particularly expensive in the long run, because the controller, which is the most sensitive part of the setup, is built into the main motor unit.

Also, a lady who came to see me from well up-country to discover if she wanted a bike like mine, brought her husband along. While she was test-riding my bike in a supermarket parking lot, he and I talked about our hobbies. When she came to us again, flushed with excitement, he said, "Well, of course Andre has no problem with building his own electric bike. He spent ten years building his own valve amplifiers up to 2000 volt."* The experience with high-voltage electronics inclined me to discover what I needed to know, and to learn it, before I spent any money, and to proceed with utmost caution.. Electric bikes are like writing for publication -- any idiot who has mastered a qwerty keyboard thinks he can do it, until he tries, as we have seen repeatedly on this board in the sour comments about my books from the failures. Electric bikes are actually quite tricky, and the trickiest part, as pH has pointed out, is the bland-looking battery, also the most expensive and dangerous part of the entire installation.

So I think "Replace the entire unit" is probably the kindest thing you can say to someone's wallet. There was, perhaps still is, a US Navy trained electronics expert who supplied most of the top rock bands in the US with tubes (thermionic valves used in guitar amps), operating out of Denver, trading as Lord Valve. He had a decent respect for precision in the language, and one day he corrected me when I put guitar mechanics in the same class as amp mechanics, who're commonplace -- a little rule of thumb learning will see them right, if they survive the first few shocks. But guitar mechanics are an elite. That's also the difference between understanding an electric motor, and messing with its control electronics; the motor is simple electrics, the electronics are not.

Ande Jute
*Here's a page of my slightly less dangerous designs you can build if you're a daring audiophile who can also read a schematic:
http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/...0ON%20AMPS.htm

On 11/5/2019 9:00 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/4/2019 9:17 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/4/2019 1:44 PM, pH wrote:
Stop me before I post again.....

Okay, last time, then I'm going outside.

Here are *26* kits that were around in 2014.
There was a TdF rider who was accused of using a motor
assist some years back, wasn't there?Â* Kit Number 10 in
this list could have been the culprit if true.

pH in Aptos

https://www.electricbike.com/mid-drive-kits/

I'm curious about how the Yellow Jersey bike shop is
responding to this ebike trend.

Andy?



We walked away a few years ago when we were unable to provide any
service beyond "replace entire system" to customers with products we
sold. There's a current front page article in our industry news on that
very subject:

https://read.dmtmag.com/i/1179600-no...ew s+Audience


Lower right, "E-bike Service Can Mean Saying 'No' "

This situation may well change, and our opinion will change, but despite
the hype the product is generally not ready for average consumers IMHO.

We're very good with mechanical, machining, welding/brazing processes
and electromechanical systems such as classic autos and motorcycles.
E-bike troubles are often not in those realms, rather software, sensors,
semiconductor circuits, motor controller systems, batteries and
connectors/fixtures of the lowest orders.

It's one thing for the importer to reply in text that you have to
replace the entire system. It's quite another to look a man in the eye
and say that.

In my experience, some dealers have that skill. :-/

In the early 1970s, I bought a 350cc Kawasaki A7, a rotary valve twin
with one of the first motorcycle electronic ignitions - capacitive
discharge, surface gap plugs, triggered by a magnet and sensor instead
of points.

It was wonderful, much better starting and running than my previous
2-stroke bikes. Until one day on a camping trip up in the mountains, a
massive thunderstorm hit. My friend and I pulled under shelter to wait
it out. When I tried to re-start, one of the electronic boxes emitted
sizzles, sparks and smoke.

The dealer in my small town claimed that the entire ignition system had
to be replaced, and at about half the cost of the bike. According to
him, that included the permanent magnet. How does water damage a
permanent magnet??

I retrofitted a classic points-and-coil system instead.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On Tuesday, November 5, 2019 at 4:50:17 PM UTC, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, November 5, 2019 at 7:46:26 AM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:

I like that 1000W motor, but then I'm an old (motor) racer. However, in inexperienced hands, I think that particularly the Bafang motor, which in each incarnation has more torque than the competition, would be dangerous in mixed company. The 750W Bafang motor this fellow let me try within its limits accelerated as fast, subjectively of course, as the smaller of the Laverda I had back in the day, and that was known to be lively for a 350cc bike. Up to 15 or 20mph the instant grunt of the battery might even make it faster than the biggest Laverda of the era, which I also had, a frightening bike if one were careless with the throttle.

That 1000W Bafang motor will make Schwalbe very happy: it's bound to be a tyre shredder.

Andre, you know that this is going to elicit negative responses from the know-nothing Quadropoedics.

I don't consider what those pudding-pulls will say because I've heard it all before. They don't even grasp how ridiculous they look every time they start a flame war over me saying, "The sun shone today."

Ande Jute
Mister Teflon

On 11/5/2019 9:37 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, November 1, 2019 at 7:31:57 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Wednesday, October 30, 2019 at 6:03:55 PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, October 30, 2019 at 2:33:10 PM UTC-7, Zen Cycle wrote:
On Wednesday, October 30, 2019 at 2:12:01 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Wednesday, October 30, 2019 at 10:49:21 AM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote

Now what we really need is a serious Congressional investigation into why NASA has been falsifying the temperature records. This is now to the point that they should criminally charge these people with lying under the cover of authority.

Get on it, Tom! Stop wasting your time here. Run for congress!

But the problem is a lot bigger than you've stated. It's not just NASA falsifying
data. There are dozens of countries in on the scam! They've even taking to
melting glaciers (doubtlessly using top secret technology) to convince people
of this global scam.

The world needs you to save us! Stop posting on r.b.tech about it - get out and
save the world!

- Frank Krygowski

And while he's at it may be he can convince jute to write something a publisher might be interested rather than trolling a news group every day.

Or maybe I can just simply note that not one single climate prediction has been accurate for over 40 years.

No, no, you still don't get it. Don't post that here. Put it on billboards.
Make it your campaign slogan. Broadcast it on the TV, radio, internet, and in
print.

Get out there and save the world from those who would save the world! (And
let us talk about bicycles.)

- Frank Krygowski

Crying Franky Boy because you simply have no legs to stand on? You become increasingly disjointed. Are you worried that your view of the universe in which passing trucks trim the branches so that you don't have to worry about them was attacked by the presence of a large heavy limb in the bike lane so terrifying that you can do nothing else but deny it? That the UCI who actually have nothing else to do actually replied to a letter? Your head must be spinning at how important you are and how wrong you have been about everything else in your life and the only way to forestall a heart attack is simply to deny any of it occurred.

You ought to apply for a copyright on your tendency to deflect away from
arguments.

Seriously: Since you know SO MUCH about all the details of climate
science (as well as so many other topics), why _aren't_ you spreading
your wisdom where it will actually promote the changes you desire?

IOW, why are you wasting your time posting about climate to a backwater
bicycle discussion group? Can you really not find a "climate change"
discussion group? Are you _that_ inept?

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 11/5/2019 12:14 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/5/2019 9:00 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/4/2019 9:17 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/4/2019 1:44 PM, pH wrote:
Stop me before I post again.....

Okay, last time, then I'm going outside.

Here are *26* kits that were around in 2014.
There was a TdF rider who was accused of using a motor
assist some years back, wasn't there? Kit Number 10 in
this list could have been the culprit if true.

pH in Aptos

https://www.electricbike.com/mid-drive-kits/

I'm curious about how the Yellow Jersey bike shop is
responding to this ebike trend.

Andy?



We walked away a few years ago when we were unable to
provide any service beyond "replace entire system" to
customers with products we sold. There's a current front
page article in our industry news on that very subject:

https://read.dmtmag.com/i/1179600-no...ew s+Audience


Lower right, "E-bike Service Can Mean Saying 'No' "

This situation may well change, and our opinion will
change, but despite the hype the product is generally not
ready for average consumers IMHO.

We're very good with mechanical, machining,
welding/brazing processes and electromechanical systems
such as classic autos and motorcycles. E-bike troubles are
often not in those realms, rather software, sensors,
semiconductor circuits, motor controller systems,
batteries and connectors/fixtures of the lowest orders.

It's one thing for the importer to reply in text that you
have to replace the entire system. It's quite another to
look a man in the eye and say that.

In my experience, some dealers have that skill. :-/

In the early 1970s, I bought a 350cc Kawasaki A7, a rotary
valve twin with one of the first motorcycle electronic
ignitions - capacitive discharge, surface gap plugs,
triggered by a magnet and sensor instead of points.

It was wonderful, much better starting and running than my
previous 2-stroke bikes. Until one day on a camping trip up
in the mountains, a massive thunderstorm hit. My friend and
I pulled under shelter to wait it out. When I tried to
re-start, one of the electronic boxes emitted sizzles,
sparks and smoke.

The dealer in my small town claimed that the entire ignition
system had to be replaced, and at about half the cost of the
bike. According to him, that included the permanent magnet.
How does water damage a permanent magnet??

I retrofitted a classic points-and-coil system instead.



I have to explain to Engine Guru twice a year that, no, I'm
not interested in electronic ignition and yes I'm happy to
clean and gap mechanical points. I was once up on US 666
between Payson and Snowflake 3am in a snowstorm [1]. Rental
truck was missing and popping. I pulled a matchbook across
the points, gapped them by ear and drove on.

Mr Engine Guru says modern are much simpler, you just drop
in a new electronic module. This is not communication, as we
see the problem from different universes.

[1]45 years ago that highway was not as nice as now:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-1wTo5oVUI

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 05/11/2019 1:24 p.m., AMuzi wrote:
On 11/5/2019 12:14 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/5/2019 9:00 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/4/2019 9:17 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/4/2019 1:44 PM, pH wrote:
Stop me before I post again.....

Okay, last time, then I'm going outside.

Here are *26* kits that were around in 2014.
There was a TdF rider who was accused of using a motor
assist some years back, wasn't there?ÂÂ* Kit Number 10 in
this list could have been the culprit if true.

pH in Aptos

https://www.electricbike.com/mid-drive-kits/

I'm curious about how the Yellow Jersey bike shop is
responding to this ebike trend.

Andy?



We walked away a few years ago when we were unable to
provide any service beyond "replace entire system" to
customers with products we sold. There's a current front
page article in our industry news on that very subject:

https://read.dmtmag.com/i/1179600-no...ew s+Audience



Lower right, "E-bike Service Can Mean Saying 'No' "

This situation may well change, and our opinion will
change, but despite the hype the product is generally not
ready for average consumers IMHO.

We're very good with mechanical, machining,
welding/brazing processes and electromechanical systems
such as classic autos and motorcycles. E-bike troubles are
often not in those realms, rather software, sensors,
semiconductor circuits, motor controller systems,
batteries and connectors/fixtures of the lowest orders.

It's one thing for the importer to reply in text that you
have to replace the entire system. It's quite another to
look a man in the eye and say that.

In my experience, some dealers have that skill.Â*Â*Â* :-/

In the early 1970s, I bought a 350cc Kawasaki A7, a rotary
valve twin with one of the first motorcycle electronic
ignitions - capacitive discharge, surface gap plugs,
triggered by a magnet and sensor instead of points.

It was wonderful, much better starting and running than my
previous 2-stroke bikes. Until one day on a camping trip up
in the mountains, a massive thunderstorm hit. My friend and
I pulled under shelter to wait it out. When I tried to
re-start, one of the electronic boxes emitted sizzles,
sparks and smoke.

The dealer in my small town claimed that the entire ignition
system had to be replaced, and at about half the cost of the
bike. According to him, that included the permanent magnet.
How does water damage a permanent magnet??

I retrofitted a classic points-and-coil system instead.



I have to explain to Engine Guru twice a year that, no, I'm not
interested in electronic ignition and yes I'm happy to clean and gap
mechanical points. I was once up on US 666 between Payson and Snowflake
3am in a snowstorm [1]. Rental truck was missing and popping. I pulled a
matchbook across the points, gapped them by ear and drove on.

Mr Engine Guru says modern are much simpler, you just drop in a new
electronic module. This is not communication, as we see the problem from
different universes.


I used to carry spare rotor, points and condenser in my glove
compartment and was able to get things going when they broke. The bad
part was that I had to do that occasionally. I haven't had a problem
like that with an electronic ignition in - well I don't remember the
last time.

[1]45 years ago that highway was not as nice as now:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-1wTo5oVUI

Duane wrote:

:I used to carry spare rotor, points and condenser in my glove
:compartment and was able to get things going when they broke. The bad
art was that I had to do that occasionally. I haven't had a problem
:like that with an electronic ignition in - well I don't remember the
:last time.

modern engines have a spark plug replacement interval that exceeds the
engine replacement interval of the cars of 70s.


--
sig 94