Dropper posts for every bike?

On 12/2/2019 12:49 PM, wrote:
On Monday, December 2, 2019 at 1:44:11 AM UTC+1, Duane wrote:
wrote:
On Sunday, December 1, 2019 at 4:17:23 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/30/2019 11:24 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, November 27, 2019 at 10:04:33 AM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Should pro road racers use dropper posts?

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/worldto...111819293.html

If they do, it won't be long before anyone who uses an ordinary seatpost
will be scorned as a luddite.

--
- Frank Krygowski

I believe a dropper seatpost in professional road bicycle racing might
be a safety benefit. Currently, racers descending a mountain will
frequently put their groin and belly and chest onto the top of the
toptube to become as aerodynamic as possible. This is a
somewhat/definitely unsafe position to control a bicycle when
descending. But with a dropper seatpost, the racer could get himself
into the low aerodynamic position, AND remain seated on the saddle.
Overall a much safer position to descend a mountain. So a dropper
seatpost would be an easy safety enhancement for professional
bicyclists. Who would be against increasing the safety aspect of
professional bicycle racing?

IMO, racers can do whatever is within the rules to win a race. But as I
said, it won't be long before anyone who makes a different choice than a
racer will be scorned, at least by some.

Scorned? Really? Maybe by some idiots, but in general?


Over the years, it's happened with lycra clothes, helmets, clipless
pedals, 6 then 7 then 8 then 9 then 10 then 11 cogs, index shifting,
STI, aero wheels, carbon fiber, aero frames...

Not over here. I heard that the US is a ****ed up country but this I can't believe.

Lou



Seems to me that the scorning comes from the other way around. Just check
the recent posts here about Di2.

I was flabbergasted too. Is Frank not frequently 'accusing' us of:
- being a victim of marketing,
- using parts that are unreliable without any experience with them himself,
- using equipment with un noticeable advantages/gain according to his standards.
- that we are non racers and we don't need any of the new stuff even if we are telling him that it makes our rides more pleasant,
- keep bugging us about wearing a helmet,


He has to show me one post where I mock about his choice of equipment. I think we are very nice to him. Concerning modern equipment Frank and John B are the Statler and Waldorf of rec.bicycles.tech

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpYEJx7PkWE


:-)

On Monday, December 2, 2019 at 10:28:44 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/2/2019 2:14 AM, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 1 Dec 2019 21:26:43 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Sunday, 1 December 2019 22:44:13 UTC-5, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 1 Dec 2019 18:54:20 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Sunday, 1 December 2019 20:11:37 UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, December 1, 2019 at 4:21:28 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Sunday, December 1, 2019 at 12:17:04 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, December 1, 2019 at 7:17:23 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/30/2019 11:24 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, November 27, 2019 at 10:04:33 AM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Should pro road racers use dropper posts?

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/worldto...111819293.html

If they do, it won't be long before anyone who uses an ordinary seatpost
will be scorned as a luddite.

--
- Frank Krygowski

I believe a dropper seatpost in professional road bicycle racing might be a safety benefit. Currently, racers descending a mountain will frequently put their groin and belly and chest onto the top of the toptube to become as aerodynamic as possible. This is a somewhat/definitely unsafe position to control a bicycle when descending. But with a dropper seatpost, the racer could get himself into the low aerodynamic position, AND remain seated on the saddle. Overall a much safer position to descend a mountain. So a dropper seatpost would be an easy safety enhancement for professional bicyclists. Who would be against increasing the safety aspect of professional bicycle racing?

IMO, racers can do whatever is within the rules to win a race. But as I
said, it won't be long before anyone who makes a different choice than a
racer will be scorned, at least by some.

Over the years, it's happened with lycra clothes, helmets, clipless
pedals, 6 then 7 then 8 then 9 then 10 then 11 cogs, index shifting,
STI, aero wheels, carbon fiber, aero frames...

Scorned by whom? Who cares if you do or don't wear lycra? Who would care if you do or don't have a dropper post? Do people really make you feel bad because you have DT shifting? Man, I'm avoiding Ohio.

Almost all the scorn I've received has been on this newsgroup. Most recently
it's been about non-electronic shifting. Before that, disc brakes. Before that,
STI. Before that, toe clips instead of clipless, etc.

As I recall, you were being scorned for dismissing anyone with equipment newer than 1987 as being a faddist. You should be scorned for that -- and made to sit in the corner. Nobody cares if you buy new equipment, but just dismissing discs or Di2 as "style" or "fad" is stupid without at least trying it first. I dismissed SIS as a Fisher Price toy for people who couldn't friction shift. I loved it when I got it, and then STI -- which was hugely beneficial in races and still my preferred shifting method (although electricity is not a requirement). I would hate to go back to DT shifting, and I hated bar ends even when they were current. I would whack my knees on them climbing out of the saddle.


There have been a very few times I've gotten person to person scorn. Most common
has been helmet related (or rather, related to my not wearing a helmet). I
recall one young dude (years ago) mocking my 32 tooth rear cog. (That guy's
probably using a bigger one now.) I recall a different dude sort of mocking "all
the stuff" I have on my bike: lights, fenders, handlebar bag.

(Actually, I haven't had downtube shifters since about 1982. I mostly use bar-
end shifters.)

Gear mocking is a thing of the past, except if you get one of those 50t Eagle rear cogs. I would mock you. I got mocked by some stranger racer who I was dogging up Mt. Hamilton in the 70s. I had a 42X28, which was a huge cog. I think the guy was just ****ed off because I was hanging with him on a touring bike. That was the moment I decided to race, and the rest is history. Even after six Tour victories, three Giros and two Vueltas, I look back on that ride up Mt. Hamilton as one of the most important days of my life. Oh wait, I only won those races while day dreaming on my rollers. Never mind. Anyway, mocking can be a good thing. It makes us hard men.

-- Jay Beattie.

Shimano SIS is in my opinion one of the greatest advances in bicycling that made bicycling so much easier for many people. It ranks right up there with the safety bicycle and pneumatic tires. With a properly adjusted SIS (or Brifters) almost anyone can make perfect shifts and do so without the long learning curve that used to be required by so many.

Cheers

Come on with the long learning curve. A one hour, or maybe shorter
ride?

But, in fact, I am reading that there are fewer cyclists today than
there were 10, or more years ago, and far fewer then there were 40
years ago. In fact it is probable that the 1970's was the high point
in cycling in the U.S. There were 15.2 million bikes sold in 1973
which is the all time high.

Calculating sales versus population we find that 7.19 bikes were sold
per each 100 people in the U.S. in 1973 and in 2015 there were 3.9
bikes sold per 100 people.

And, lets see, a 1973 bike had down tube shifters, 10 speeds, tubular
tires and rim brakes.

So all the magic automatic, electric, razzmatazz, doesn't seem to have
increased the numbers of bike riders, does it?

--
cheers,

John B.

I knew a lot of people back in the days of friction shifting who had a very hard time learning to shift so that there was no noise from a chain that wasn't properly engaged on a cog or chainring. So, yes for them it was a long learning curve. In fact some of them never got the hang of clean shifts. For those people SIS was a real blessing.

Cheers

Seriously?

I can't even remember "learning to shift". Nearly 30 years ago now and
that was all there was so I just got on and rode the beast. Probably
I missed some shifts and miss shifted but as there was no other way to
get the thing to change gears I just got used to it. Memory is
sometimes not as clear as it might be but I certainly don't remember
it being especially traumatic to shift.

Rather like driving a stick shift car with a foot clutch. It did take
a bit of practice but if you wanted to drive the folk's car to the
Saturday night barn dance you when you were 16 years old you just did
it.

It's too late to check this out, but I bet back in the mid-1990s there
was tight correlation between those who used index shifting and those
who drove automatic transmissions.

Well, the correlation between owning either an automatic or manual transmission and owning SIS/index shifting would be very high because in 1990, practically every decent new bike had SIS, Accushift or Syncro. Friction shifting already was in the dust-bin. See e.g. http://vintagecannondale.com/year/1990/1990.pdf Even bar ends were indexing. I got indexing bar ends on my 1987 T1000. In 1987, I had a five speed Subaru and SIS. Now I have an automatic Subaru and STI. I prefer the automatic, which also allows be to paddle shift if I want to play sports car driver.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 12/2/2019 3:54 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, December 2, 2019 at 10:28:44 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/2/2019 2:14 AM, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 1 Dec 2019 21:26:43 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Sunday, 1 December 2019 22:44:13 UTC-5, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 1 Dec 2019 18:54:20 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Sunday, 1 December 2019 20:11:37 UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, December 1, 2019 at 4:21:28 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Sunday, December 1, 2019 at 12:17:04 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, December 1, 2019 at 7:17:23 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/30/2019 11:24 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, November 27, 2019 at 10:04:33 AM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Should pro road racers use dropper posts?

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/worldto...111819293.html

If they do, it won't be long before anyone who uses an ordinary seatpost
will be scorned as a luddite.

--
- Frank Krygowski

I believe a dropper seatpost in professional road bicycle racing might be a safety benefit. Currently, racers descending a mountain will frequently put their groin and belly and chest onto the top of the toptube to become as aerodynamic as possible. This is a somewhat/definitely unsafe position to control a bicycle when descending. But with a dropper seatpost, the racer could get himself into the low aerodynamic position, AND remain seated on the saddle. Overall a much safer position to descend a mountain. So a dropper seatpost would be an easy safety enhancement for professional bicyclists. Who would be against increasing the safety aspect of professional bicycle racing?

IMO, racers can do whatever is within the rules to win a race. But as I
said, it won't be long before anyone who makes a different choice than a
racer will be scorned, at least by some.

Over the years, it's happened with lycra clothes, helmets, clipless
pedals, 6 then 7 then 8 then 9 then 10 then 11 cogs, index shifting,
STI, aero wheels, carbon fiber, aero frames...

Scorned by whom? Who cares if you do or don't wear lycra? Who would care if you do or don't have a dropper post? Do people really make you feel bad because you have DT shifting? Man, I'm avoiding Ohio.

Almost all the scorn I've received has been on this newsgroup. Most recently
it's been about non-electronic shifting. Before that, disc brakes. Before that,
STI. Before that, toe clips instead of clipless, etc.

As I recall, you were being scorned for dismissing anyone with equipment newer than 1987 as being a faddist. You should be scorned for that -- and made to sit in the corner. Nobody cares if you buy new equipment, but just dismissing discs or Di2 as "style" or "fad" is stupid without at least trying it first. I dismissed SIS as a Fisher Price toy for people who couldn't friction shift. I loved it when I got it, and then STI -- which was hugely beneficial in races and still my preferred shifting method (although electricity is not a requirement). I would hate to go back to DT shifting, and I hated bar ends even when they were current. I would whack my knees on them climbing out of the saddle.


There have been a very few times I've gotten person to person scorn. Most common
has been helmet related (or rather, related to my not wearing a helmet). I
recall one young dude (years ago) mocking my 32 tooth rear cog. (That guy's
probably using a bigger one now.) I recall a different dude sort of mocking "all
the stuff" I have on my bike: lights, fenders, handlebar bag.

(Actually, I haven't had downtube shifters since about 1982. I mostly use bar-
end shifters.)

Gear mocking is a thing of the past, except if you get one of those 50t Eagle rear cogs. I would mock you. I got mocked by some stranger racer who I was dogging up Mt. Hamilton in the 70s. I had a 42X28, which was a huge cog. I think the guy was just ****ed off because I was hanging with him on a touring bike. That was the moment I decided to race, and the rest is history. Even after six Tour victories, three Giros and two Vueltas, I look back on that ride up Mt. Hamilton as one of the most important days of my life. Oh wait, I only won those races while day dreaming on my rollers. Never mind. Anyway, mocking can be a good thing. It makes us hard men.

-- Jay Beattie.

Shimano SIS is in my opinion one of the greatest advances in bicycling that made bicycling so much easier for many people. It ranks right up there with the safety bicycle and pneumatic tires. With a properly adjusted SIS (or Brifters) almost anyone can make perfect shifts and do so without the long learning curve that used to be required by so many.

Cheers

Come on with the long learning curve. A one hour, or maybe shorter
ride?

But, in fact, I am reading that there are fewer cyclists today than
there were 10, or more years ago, and far fewer then there were 40
years ago. In fact it is probable that the 1970's was the high point
in cycling in the U.S. There were 15.2 million bikes sold in 1973
which is the all time high.

Calculating sales versus population we find that 7.19 bikes were sold
per each 100 people in the U.S. in 1973 and in 2015 there were 3.9
bikes sold per 100 people.

And, lets see, a 1973 bike had down tube shifters, 10 speeds, tubular
tires and rim brakes.

So all the magic automatic, electric, razzmatazz, doesn't seem to have
increased the numbers of bike riders, does it?

--
cheers,

John B.

I knew a lot of people back in the days of friction shifting who had a very hard time learning to shift so that there was no noise from a chain that wasn't properly engaged on a cog or chainring. So, yes for them it was a long learning curve. In fact some of them never got the hang of clean shifts. For those people SIS was a real blessing.

Cheers

Seriously?

I can't even remember "learning to shift". Nearly 30 years ago now and
that was all there was so I just got on and rode the beast. Probably
I missed some shifts and miss shifted but as there was no other way to
get the thing to change gears I just got used to it. Memory is
sometimes not as clear as it might be but I certainly don't remember
it being especially traumatic to shift.

Rather like driving a stick shift car with a foot clutch. It did take
a bit of practice but if you wanted to drive the folk's car to the
Saturday night barn dance you when you were 16 years old you just did
it.

It's too late to check this out, but I bet back in the mid-1990s there
was tight correlation between those who used index shifting and those
who drove automatic transmissions.

Well, the correlation between owning either an automatic or manual transmission and owning SIS/index shifting would be very high because in 1990, practically every decent new bike had SIS, Accushift or Syncro. Friction shifting already was in the dust-bin. See e.g. http://vintagecannondale.com/year/1990/1990.pdf Even bar ends were indexing. I got indexing bar ends on my 1987 T1000. In 1987, I had a five speed Subaru and SIS. Now I have an automatic Subaru and STI. I prefer the automatic, which also allows be to paddle shift if I want to play sports car driver.


Sorry, typo. I meant mid 1980s.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Mon, 02 Dec 2019 02:57:24 -0800, sms wrote:

On 12/1/2019 7:44 PM, John B. wrote:

snip

So all the magic automatic, electric, razzmatazz, doesn't seem to have
increased the numbers of bike riders, does it?

The late 60's/early 70's were outliers in terms of bicycles being sold
in the U.S.. It's when the Schwinn Varsity became every teenager's dream
and mass quantities were sold. Those that couldn't afford a Scwhinn
Varsity for $90 bought a department store Murray or C. Itoh "ten speed"
for $50-60.

Also, you can't equate the number of bicycles sold with the number of
riders.

Yep. For a number of years, there were more bicycles sold than motor
cars, but you didn't see them on the road. Mostly they were kids bikes
that around here received no basic maintenance. No idea of the numbers
sold now.

On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 00:48:50 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Monday, December 2, 2019 at 4:44:13 AM UTC+1, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 1 Dec 2019 18:54:20 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Sunday, 1 December 2019 20:11:37 UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, December 1, 2019 at 4:21:28 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Sunday, December 1, 2019 at 12:17:04 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, December 1, 2019 at 7:17:23 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/30/2019 11:24 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, November 27, 2019 at 10:04:33 AM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Should pro road racers use dropper posts?

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/worldto...111819293.html

If they do, it won't be long before anyone who uses an ordinary seatpost
will be scorned as a luddite.

--
- Frank Krygowski

I believe a dropper seatpost in professional road bicycle racing might be a safety benefit. Currently, racers descending a mountain will frequently put their groin and belly and chest onto the top of the toptube to become as aerodynamic as possible. This is a somewhat/definitely unsafe position to control a bicycle when descending. But with a dropper seatpost, the racer could get himself into the low aerodynamic position, AND remain seated on the saddle. Overall a much safer position to descend a mountain. So a dropper seatpost would be an easy safety enhancement for professional bicyclists. Who would be against increasing the safety aspect of professional bicycle racing?

IMO, racers can do whatever is within the rules to win a race. But as I
said, it won't be long before anyone who makes a different choice than a
racer will be scorned, at least by some.

Over the years, it's happened with lycra clothes, helmets, clipless
pedals, 6 then 7 then 8 then 9 then 10 then 11 cogs, index shifting,
STI, aero wheels, carbon fiber, aero frames...

Scorned by whom? Who cares if you do or don't wear lycra? Who would care if you do or don't have a dropper post? Do people really make you feel bad because you have DT shifting? Man, I'm avoiding Ohio.

Almost all the scorn I've received has been on this newsgroup. Most recently
it's been about non-electronic shifting. Before that, disc brakes. Before that,
STI. Before that, toe clips instead of clipless, etc.

As I recall, you were being scorned for dismissing anyone with equipment newer than 1987 as being a faddist. You should be scorned for that -- and made to sit in the corner. Nobody cares if you buy new equipment, but just dismissing discs or Di2 as "style" or "fad" is stupid without at least trying it first. I dismissed SIS as a Fisher Price toy for people who couldn't friction shift. I loved it when I got it, and then STI -- which was hugely beneficial in races and still my preferred shifting method (although electricity is not a requirement). I would hate to go back to DT shifting, and I hated bar ends even when they were current. I would whack my knees on them climbing out of the saddle.


There have been a very few times I've gotten person to person scorn. Most common
has been helmet related (or rather, related to my not wearing a helmet). I
recall one young dude (years ago) mocking my 32 tooth rear cog. (That guy's
probably using a bigger one now.) I recall a different dude sort of mocking "all
the stuff" I have on my bike: lights, fenders, handlebar bag.

(Actually, I haven't had downtube shifters since about 1982. I mostly use bar-
end shifters.)

Gear mocking is a thing of the past, except if you get one of those 50t Eagle rear cogs. I would mock you. I got mocked by some stranger racer who I was dogging up Mt. Hamilton in the 70s. I had a 42X28, which was a huge cog. I think the guy was just ****ed off because I was hanging with him on a touring bike. That was the moment I decided to race, and the rest is history. Even after six Tour victories, three Giros and two Vueltas, I look back on that ride up Mt. Hamilton as one of the most important days of my life. Oh wait, I only won those races while day dreaming on my rollers. Never mind. Anyway, mocking can be a good thing. It makes us hard men.

-- Jay Beattie.

Shimano SIS is in my opinion one of the greatest advances in bicycling that made bicycling so much easier for many people. It ranks right up there with the safety bicycle and pneumatic tires. With a properly adjusted SIS (or Brifters) almost anyone can make perfect shifts and do so without the long learning curve that used to be required by so many.

Cheers

Come on with the long learning curve. A one hour, or maybe shorter
ride?

But, in fact, I am reading that there are fewer cyclists today than
there were 10, or more years ago, and far fewer then there were 40
years ago. In fact it is probable that the 1970's was the high point
in cycling in the U.S. There were 15.2 million bikes sold in 1973
which is the all time high.

Calculating sales versus population we find that 7.19 bikes were sold
per each 100 people in the U.S. in 1973 and in 2015 there were 3.9
bikes sold per 100 people.

And, lets see, a 1973 bike had down tube shifters, 10 speeds, tubular
tires and rim brakes.

So all the magic automatic, electric, razzmatazz, doesn't seem to have
increased the numbers of bike riders, does it?

--
cheers,

John B.

What are you trying to say? Are you denying that index shifting doesn't make shifting easier for the non cycling geeks, like us? Even today and even here in de Netherlands front, back and up down levers are complicated for a lot of people. They prefer one indexed twist shifter you get with a gear hub.

Lou

No, I was trying, apparently in vain, to rebut the statement that
manual shifting was difficult to learn how to do.

But, I must admit that the use of two brake levers that one must
either push or pull, is, perhaps difficult to learn... for those that
are so mentally impaired that they can't walk and chew gum at the same
time.
--
cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 02:57:24 -0800, sms
wrote:

On 12/1/2019 7:44 PM, John B. wrote:

snip

So all the magic automatic, electric, razzmatazz, doesn't seem to have
increased the numbers of bike riders, does it?

The late 60's/early 70's were outliers in terms of bicycles being sold
in the U.S.. It's when the Schwinn Varsity became every teenager's dream
and mass quantities were sold. Those that couldn't afford a Scwhinn
Varsity for $90 bought a department store Murray or C. Itoh "ten speed"
for $50-60.

Also, you can't equate the number of bicycles sold with the number of
riders.

I didn't "equate the number of bicycles sold with the number of
riders" as I have found no facultative figures to show actual number
of bicycle riders in the U.S.

I equated number of bicycles sold to the population which are actual
numbers, not estimates.
--
cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 09:49:37 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Monday, December 2, 2019 at 1:44:11 AM UTC+1, Duane wrote:
wrote:
On Sunday, December 1, 2019 at 4:17:23 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/30/2019 11:24 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, November 27, 2019 at 10:04:33 AM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Should pro road racers use dropper posts?

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/worldto...111819293.html

If they do, it won't be long before anyone who uses an ordinary seatpost
will be scorned as a luddite.

--
- Frank Krygowski

I believe a dropper seatpost in professional road bicycle racing might
be a safety benefit. Currently, racers descending a mountain will
frequently put their groin and belly and chest onto the top of the
toptube to become as aerodynamic as possible. This is a
somewhat/definitely unsafe position to control a bicycle when
descending. But with a dropper seatpost, the racer could get himself
into the low aerodynamic position, AND remain seated on the saddle.
Overall a much safer position to descend a mountain. So a dropper
seatpost would be an easy safety enhancement for professional
bicyclists. Who would be against increasing the safety aspect of
professional bicycle racing?

IMO, racers can do whatever is within the rules to win a race. But as I
said, it won't be long before anyone who makes a different choice than a
racer will be scorned, at least by some.

Scorned? Really? Maybe by some idiots, but in general?


Over the years, it's happened with lycra clothes, helmets, clipless
pedals, 6 then 7 then 8 then 9 then 10 then 11 cogs, index shifting,
STI, aero wheels, carbon fiber, aero frames...

Not over here. I heard that the US is a ****ed up country but this I can't believe.

Lou



Seems to me that the scorning comes from the other way around. Just check
the recent posts here about Di2.

I was flabbergasted too. Is Frank not frequently 'accusing' us of:
- being a victim of marketing,
- using parts that are unreliable without any experience with them himself,
- using equipment with un noticeable advantages/gain according to his standards.
- that we are non racers and we don't need any of the new stuff even if we are telling him that it makes our rides more pleasant,
- keep bugging us about wearing a helmet,

He has to show me one post where I mock about his choice of equipment. I think we are very nice to him. Concerning modern equipment Frank and John B are the Statler and Waldorf of rec.bicycles.tech

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpYEJx7PkWE

Lou

Are you arguing that you actually "need" electric shifting (for
example) in order to ride a bicycle? Or in my recent tirades, the
"need" for STI shifting to ride a bicycle?

I might comment, that in my usual 2 - 3 hour Sunday ride in Bangkok I
might shift 4 to 6 times. On the average that would be one shift every
30 minutes... Do I really "need" electric shifting?

Given the difficulty in adapting to down tube manual shifting and the
great "need" for a "better" way to shift the bicycle one can only
speculate on how you get into your house. After all, you have to
manually twist the door knob to get the damned door to open.

--
cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 13:28:40 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 12/2/2019 2:14 AM, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 1 Dec 2019 21:26:43 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Sunday, 1 December 2019 22:44:13 UTC-5, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 1 Dec 2019 18:54:20 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Sunday, 1 December 2019 20:11:37 UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, December 1, 2019 at 4:21:28 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Sunday, December 1, 2019 at 12:17:04 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, December 1, 2019 at 7:17:23 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/30/2019 11:24 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, November 27, 2019 at 10:04:33 AM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Should pro road racers use dropper posts?

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/worldto...111819293.html

If they do, it won't be long before anyone who uses an ordinary seatpost
will be scorned as a luddite.

--
- Frank Krygowski

I believe a dropper seatpost in professional road bicycle racing might be a safety benefit. Currently, racers descending a mountain will frequently put their groin and belly and chest onto the top of the toptube to become as aerodynamic as possible. This is a somewhat/definitely unsafe position to control a bicycle when descending. But with a dropper seatpost, the racer could get himself into the low aerodynamic position, AND remain seated on the saddle. Overall a much safer position to descend a mountain. So a dropper seatpost would be an easy safety enhancement for professional bicyclists. Who would be against increasing the safety aspect of professional bicycle racing?

IMO, racers can do whatever is within the rules to win a race. But as I
said, it won't be long before anyone who makes a different choice than a
racer will be scorned, at least by some.

Over the years, it's happened with lycra clothes, helmets, clipless
pedals, 6 then 7 then 8 then 9 then 10 then 11 cogs, index shifting,
STI, aero wheels, carbon fiber, aero frames...

Scorned by whom? Who cares if you do or don't wear lycra? Who would care if you do or don't have a dropper post? Do people really make you feel bad because you have DT shifting? Man, I'm avoiding Ohio.

Almost all the scorn I've received has been on this newsgroup. Most recently
it's been about non-electronic shifting. Before that, disc brakes. Before that,
STI. Before that, toe clips instead of clipless, etc.

As I recall, you were being scorned for dismissing anyone with equipment newer than 1987 as being a faddist. You should be scorned for that -- and made to sit in the corner. Nobody cares if you buy new equipment, but just dismissing discs or Di2 as "style" or "fad" is stupid without at least trying it first. I dismissed SIS as a Fisher Price toy for people who couldn't friction shift. I loved it when I got it, and then STI -- which was hugely beneficial in races and still my preferred shifting method (although electricity is not a requirement). I would hate to go back to DT shifting, and I hated bar ends even when they were current. I would whack my knees on them climbing out of the saddle.


There have been a very few times I've gotten person to person scorn. Most common
has been helmet related (or rather, related to my not wearing a helmet). I
recall one young dude (years ago) mocking my 32 tooth rear cog. (That guy's
probably using a bigger one now.) I recall a different dude sort of mocking "all
the stuff" I have on my bike: lights, fenders, handlebar bag.

(Actually, I haven't had downtube shifters since about 1982. I mostly use bar-
end shifters.)

Gear mocking is a thing of the past, except if you get one of those 50t Eagle rear cogs. I would mock you. I got mocked by some stranger racer who I was dogging up Mt. Hamilton in the 70s. I had a 42X28, which was a huge cog. I think the guy was just ****ed off because I was hanging with him on a touring bike. That was the moment I decided to race, and the rest is history. Even after six Tour victories, three Giros and two Vueltas, I look back on that ride up Mt. Hamilton as one of the most important days of my life. Oh wait, I only won those races while day dreaming on my rollers. Never mind. Anyway, mocking can be a good thing. It makes us hard men.

-- Jay Beattie.

Shimano SIS is in my opinion one of the greatest advances in bicycling that made bicycling so much easier for many people. It ranks right up there with the safety bicycle and pneumatic tires. With a properly adjusted SIS (or Brifters) almost anyone can make perfect shifts and do so without the long learning curve that used to be required by so many.

Cheers

Come on with the long learning curve. A one hour, or maybe shorter
ride?

But, in fact, I am reading that there are fewer cyclists today than
there were 10, or more years ago, and far fewer then there were 40
years ago. In fact it is probable that the 1970's was the high point
in cycling in the U.S. There were 15.2 million bikes sold in 1973
which is the all time high.

Calculating sales versus population we find that 7.19 bikes were sold
per each 100 people in the U.S. in 1973 and in 2015 there were 3.9
bikes sold per 100 people.

And, lets see, a 1973 bike had down tube shifters, 10 speeds, tubular
tires and rim brakes.

So all the magic automatic, electric, razzmatazz, doesn't seem to have
increased the numbers of bike riders, does it?

--
cheers,

John B.

I knew a lot of people back in the days of friction shifting who had a very hard time learning to shift so that there was no noise from a chain that wasn't properly engaged on a cog or chainring. So, yes for them it was a long learning curve. In fact some of them never got the hang of clean shifts. For those people SIS was a real blessing.

Cheers

Seriously?

I can't even remember "learning to shift". Nearly 30 years ago now and
that was all there was so I just got on and rode the beast. Probably
I missed some shifts and miss shifted but as there was no other way to
get the thing to change gears I just got used to it. Memory is
sometimes not as clear as it might be but I certainly don't remember
it being especially traumatic to shift.

Rather like driving a stick shift car with a foot clutch. It did take
a bit of practice but if you wanted to drive the folk's car to the
Saturday night barn dance you when you were 16 years old you just did
it.

It's too late to check this out, but I bet back in the mid-1990s there
was tight correlation between those who used index shifting and those
who drove automatic transmissions.

Well, I do remember that automatic transmissions were considered
rather a luxury. One might buy a car with an automatic transmission
for the wife but "your" car would have a stick shift... One wouldn't
want to be thought to be effeminate.
--
cheers,

John B.

On Tue, 03 Dec 2019 06:20:48 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 02:57:24 -0800, sms
wrote:

On 12/1/2019 7:44 PM, John B. wrote:

snip

So all the magic automatic, electric, razzmatazz, doesn't seem to have
increased the numbers of bike riders, does it?

The late 60's/early 70's were outliers in terms of bicycles being sold
in the U.S.. It's when the Schwinn Varsity became every teenager's dream
and mass quantities were sold. Those that couldn't afford a Scwhinn
Varsity for $90 bought a department store Murray or C. Itoh "ten speed"
for $50-60.

Also, you can't equate the number of bicycles sold with the number of
riders.

I didn't "equate the number of bicycles sold with the number of
riders" as I have found no facultative figures to show actual number
of bicycle riders in the U.S.

I equated number of bicycles sold to the population which are actual
numbers, not estimates.

I can only blame my spelling checker as the word was intended to be
"factual", not "facultative" :-(
--
cheers,

John B.

On Monday, December 2, 2019 at 3:39:38 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 09:49:37 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Monday, December 2, 2019 at 1:44:11 AM UTC+1, Duane wrote:
wrote:
On Sunday, December 1, 2019 at 4:17:23 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/30/2019 11:24 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, November 27, 2019 at 10:04:33 AM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Should pro road racers use dropper posts?

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/worldto...111819293.html

If they do, it won't be long before anyone who uses an ordinary seatpost
will be scorned as a luddite.

--
- Frank Krygowski

I believe a dropper seatpost in professional road bicycle racing might
be a safety benefit. Currently, racers descending a mountain will
frequently put their groin and belly and chest onto the top of the
toptube to become as aerodynamic as possible. This is a
somewhat/definitely unsafe position to control a bicycle when
descending. But with a dropper seatpost, the racer could get himself
into the low aerodynamic position, AND remain seated on the saddle..
Overall a much safer position to descend a mountain. So a dropper
seatpost would be an easy safety enhancement for professional
bicyclists. Who would be against increasing the safety aspect of
professional bicycle racing?

IMO, racers can do whatever is within the rules to win a race. But as I
said, it won't be long before anyone who makes a different choice than a
racer will be scorned, at least by some.

Scorned? Really? Maybe by some idiots, but in general?


Over the years, it's happened with lycra clothes, helmets, clipless
pedals, 6 then 7 then 8 then 9 then 10 then 11 cogs, index shifting,
STI, aero wheels, carbon fiber, aero frames...

Not over here. I heard that the US is a ****ed up country but this I can't believe.

Lou



Seems to me that the scorning comes from the other way around. Just check
the recent posts here about Di2.

I was flabbergasted too. Is Frank not frequently 'accusing' us of:
- being a victim of marketing,
- using parts that are unreliable without any experience with them himself,
- using equipment with un noticeable advantages/gain according to his standards.
- that we are non racers and we don't need any of the new stuff even if we are telling him that it makes our rides more pleasant,
- keep bugging us about wearing a helmet,

He has to show me one post where I mock about his choice of equipment. I think we are very nice to him. Concerning modern equipment Frank and John B are the Statler and Waldorf of rec.bicycles.tech

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpYEJx7PkWE

Lou

Are you arguing that you actually "need" electric shifting (for
example) in order to ride a bicycle? Or in my recent tirades, the
"need" for STI shifting to ride a bicycle?

I might comment, that in my usual 2 - 3 hour Sunday ride in Bangkok I
might shift 4 to 6 times. On the average that would be one shift every
30 minutes... Do I really "need" electric shifting?

Nope, and no one is saying you do.

Unlike your weekend ride around Bangkok, I'll shift three times or more just getting out of my parking garage as the driveway progressively steepens to 15% before emerging onto the street, and I'll shift a whole lot more riding home. I'm fine with cable actuated STI, but DT shifting would be a total drag since I often climb out of the saddle, and I hate sitting down and reaching for the next gear. Nobody here is going to tell me DT friction shifting is perfectly fine. Screw that. I've moved on, and that does not make me a faddist, fashionista, pretender or anything else. In fact, the fashionistas are the retrogrouches who must remind everyone that they still use friction shifting or ride a penny farthing or wear tweed or ride an Eroica bike.

-- Jay Beattie.