Bike adjustments

On 12/10/2019 3:01 AM, wrote:
On Tuesday, December 10, 2019 at 2:41:49 AM UTC+1, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 9 Dec 2019 04:27:09 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Monday, December 9, 2019 at 9:21:33 AM UTC+1, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 8 Dec 2019 23:27:31 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Monday, December 9, 2019 at 12:57:20 AM UTC+1, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 8 Dec 2019 04:02:35 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 8:20:33 AM UTC+1, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 7 Dec 2019 23:03:31 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 12:49:42 AM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 3:28:56 PM UTC-8, wrote:
As part of the ordering process of my gravel bike I was measured last Wednesday to determine the correct frame size. The measuring program didn't take the handlebar/shifter/shifter position into account in contrast to saddle make and type. I found that strange because most of the time you are riding on the hoods. It was a rainy day yesterday so I took the time to measure all my current bikes which I adjusted by 'feel' giving the purpose/riding style of that bike. Results:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/1HbWyM6g1gNqoyMx5

So today I went back to the LBS (another 100 km round trip) to discuss this. In the meantime the manufacturer emailed the shop a drawing of their proposal. Strangely this drawing did show the measurements of the position of the shifter on the handlebar and this came very close what I measured on my bikes especially measurement E, F and D. With the mechanic we figured out the correct frame size taking the chosen handlebar, a stem length of 110 mm and the new Ultegra shifters and the manufacturers proposal/my measurements into account. My question is what do these measurement programs exactly do? Are there people that close a bike only based on these measurements?

Lou

Lou, if its a compact, buy a "medium." Done. Why should it be any more difficult than buying one of your Canyons?

The measurements are intended to impress you. Shop drawings and proposals?
What, are you buying from General Dynamics? What are you buying?

Back in the day, seat tube length was a big deal, but now with compacts and long seat posts, the important measurement is TT, so I suppose they're trying to get your TT just right to size the bike with a stem that is not too short or too long, which might affect steering in some metaphysical way. Unless you're built like ET, they'll pull a "medium" out of stock, declare it custom and hand it to you.


Yes that is what I thought. 7 body measurements (left and right footlength ???) which resulted in 19 adjustment proposals, even a seattube angle of 73.74 degrees. WTF? Bike will be custom build (parts) but frame will not be custom. I just wanted the right size to begin with (over-the counter) and not ending up with a 80 mm stem. These are good guys btw but they soon found out that I'm not the average customer ;-) They are dealers of BMC, Cannondale, Cervelo, IDworx, Santos, De Rosa, Bianchi and the brand I'm buying now which made me part of an American family. How about that for marketing ;-)

Lou.

It used to be much simpler. Buy a bike that you could stand over; set
the seat height and position; set the stem position; ride the bike and
make any more changes.

It still works for me :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

Yes I remembered that time, where all frames had horizontal top tubes, only 2 saddles and handlebars to choose from and of course that awful quill stem. Most of the time people rode to large frames. That time passed thank god.

Lou

Really? And just how are modern bikes fitted better? Do your feet
reach the pedals better? Do your hands reach the handlebars better?

Never said that. Chosing a bike frame by just stand over height doesn't work anymore with sloping top tubes and handlebars that come in different shapes (drop and reach).

But tell us how far back your memories reach. Brooks, for example made
various models of bicycle seats in 1880
--

You are playing silly again.

Well, you said that, " I remembered that time, where all frames had
horizontal top tubes, only 2 saddles and handlebars to choose from".

I was amazed that you could be that old and asked you how far back
your memories went. Certainly if you could remember back when there
were only two bicycle seats to choose from it must have been Before
Brooks (for example) started selling more than one model of seat.

So who's being silly? You for exaggerations to bolster your arguments?
Or me for questioning your exaggerations?
--
cheers,

John B.

John you started to ridicule todays bike fitting by stating that the stand over height method and raising/lowering the saddle and handlebar still works for you. Bike fitting today and the past is all about getting your butt, feet and hands on the right position relative to each other while riding your bike depending on:
- preference,
- riding style,
- your physical condition/ability,
- body proportions.
Today there is a lot more choices in handlebar drop/reach, frame geometries and saddles then there were in the past. They all determine were your butt, hands and feet end up giving a particular frame. A simple test if your nutts don't hit the top tube and the lower/raise a handlebar and saddle would be a not so smart method to choose a frame size/bike.

Lou

I originally said, "It used to be much simpler" and it really was. And
"fitting" a bike as I described it accomplishes everything that your
multi hundred dollar "fittings" do. I assume that you did notice my
last caveat, "then ride the bike and make any more changes".

But perhaps you are correct and modern day man needs to have his bike
"fitted".

It apparently is a recent necessity as I don't believe that Eddy
Marckx ever had a bike fitting, and he won 11 Grand Tours and more
than 500 bike races.

For that matter Frank (another old guy) has never mentioned a bike
fitting and he has ridden across the U.S. and in innumerable foreign
places, or Jay the intrepid (semi old) who rides to work come rain or
come shine, who has never mentioned a fitting, or Terrible Tom (yet
another oldie) who spends his days climbing mountains.

Strange isn't it that none of these old geezers has ever mentioned
whacking out nearly 300 dollars to have their arse fitted to a
bicycle and yet they ride/have ridden a substantial number of
miles/kilometers.
--
cheers,

John B.

Who said that a fit cost multi hundreds of dollars/euro's? They charge anything extra for it when buying a new bike in almost any bikeshop here. You can however go to a bikeshop for only a bike fit. Then it cost around 100 euro. A fit takes about an hour. Personally I would not spend that money for just a fit.


Lou


The last two bikes I bought came with a fit included and then a second
free fit within 6 months. After that $50 per fit that they usually
don't charge for.

You can get a fit for a couple hundred bucks by specialists. I know
only a couple of people that have done that and it was mostly because
they needed to tweak something. At our age riding 1-200km on a bike
makes the small things not that small. I imagine that if you ride less
or are younger, the fit is less important.

On Monday, December 9, 2019 at 5:21:37 PM UTC, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 4:32:22 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 3:13:30 AM UTC, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 4:17:45 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 11:49:42 PM UTC, jbeattie wrote:

Lou, if its a compact, buy a "medium." Done. Why should it be any more difficult than buying one of your Canyons?

In Europe bicycle manufacturers take themselves and their customers seriously.

What does it even mean that your bikes fit you to within 1mm? 1mm of what?

1mm of my desired posture on the bike, of course. What else?

My bikes fit me exactly because I have adjusted the saddle height, position and stem length and rise (or purchased a bike with appropriate stack height so I don't need rise). My bikes are exactly fitted to me even though my frames are all over-the-counter. And my fit changes as I get older and creakier and less flexible.

I could ask the same kind of cantankerous question as your question:
What does it even mean that your bikes fit you to within 1mm? 1mm of what?
say, "What does it even mean that your fit changes? From what?" But I won't. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you know what you're talking about.

If you do, you've just made my point for me. If you don't, I already have a knowledgeable source of advice, thanks all the same.

Assuming you had long legs and a tiny torso, you might need a custom frame with a short TT and weird geometry, but assuming you're not misshapen,

The better baukast (a German custom bike house, more precisely semi-custom as some of them are pretty big, and there are some German full-custom makers who'll build you a custom frame from scratch) has a philosophy and a set of frames to match it, and many sets of components approved by being tested to destruction, in the case of my chosen baukast in many cases designed for them by first-class German, Dutch and Belgian component makers. First you ascertain that the philosophy of the main man at the baukast fits you, then you check that one of their bike sizes fits you, then they change components until it fits you perfectly. At my chosen baukast, for instance, they consider tall seatposts bad engineering, as do I. So they want you to sit comfortably with your feet on the pedals without adjusting the designed-in seat height more than fractionally. And so on, point for point matching my outlook/prejudices, desires. Next thing I looked for is that all their bikes are truly scaled because they ordered custom tubes from Columbus, none of those Gunnar abortions of very tall bikes with very short chain stays because that's what the manufacturer had in stock. So their bikes have long wheelbases in relation to size, and that too is good, because I like to know how a bike will handle at the limit before I buy it, and a long wheelbase is half the battle for predictable handling. Etc, etc, a lot of stuff you won't understand, or want to hear, because you find me "tedious".

what basic dimension of your bike is any different from a similarly sized bike with basically the same geometry, vis., the same type of bike?

I own two other bikes that serve the same purpose, from Gazelle and Trek, people with very clued-in designers and marketing departments. My Utopia is fundamentally different in almost every respect, and does a great many things better than they do. But, since you drive a Subaru, and buy your bikes over the counter, you won't understand how these many advantages, some of them objectively small to the uninitiated, can add up to permanent satisfaction. In fact, I think it very likely that you will entirely miss the many advantages and be more concerned that the sum total of the prejudices of my bike maker doesn't add up to a bike that looks like every other bike. I couldn't care less about other people's opinion, but I understand those who'd rather blend with the moo-moo herd.

Your Utopia is a Byzantine mixte with a f****** motor.

You're misinformed, Jay. My bike didn't have a motor when I bought it, nor for several years afterwards. As for "Byzantine", the technical description of the frame is apparently "cross frame priest's bicycle", since it was designed when priests would for another forty years or so wear long coats with split skirts. When you calm down, compose your mind and follow the tubes, and you'll see -- or you can have an engineer explain to you -- why the frame is a stiffer than a big Rolls-Royce motorcar.

Why would you even need a custom fit?

I don't know. I never had a custom fit. I never even contemplated having some bike shop kid try to force me into the gorilla crouching in too small a cage posture of the people I see on road bikes. You, Jay Beattie, are the only one who thinks I had a custom fit.

For the record, I know how I like to sit on my bicycle, and I'm not interested in being fitted to a bicycle, I expect the bicycle to be fitted to me, exactly like my tailor fits my clothes to me. I'm amazed that Jay would be so insensitive as to believe I would ever consent to have some clerk bully me into sitting on a bike as he expects me to sit.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/43/8b...9987ece1ca.jpg

Yes. What about it? If you're so outraged about my bicycle (which fits me to within 1mm, and is fast with secure roadholding and handling, and comfortable besides) send me half a dozen of yours and I'll dispose of them thoughtfully. As I said yesterday, "I think it very likely that you will entirely miss the many advantages [of my bicycle] and be more concerned that the sum total of the prejudices of my bike maker doesn't add up to a bike that looks like every other bike." You didn't need to prove it again.

My wife had a comfort bike like that and whenever I wanted to use it to go to the store, I would just raise the saddle. It had a QR post clamp. Very convenient.

Quite. Whatever wiggles your wick. But trying to make me conform to your prejudices starts a loser and soon gets painful, and after all that is absolutely guaranteed to have not the slightest effect.

-- Jay Beattie.

I love this:
My wife had a comfort bike like that
Jay intends me to be embarrassed about it. Yeah, that's going to work a treat on someone of my proven unimpressionability. If you still dream of being Atticus Finch, you should learn to be less transparent, Jay.

My wife had a comfort bike like that
That sentence is however, much more interestingly, an admission that what I've always said is true: that the roadie crowd believes that what doesn't hurt isn't real cycling. It's just one more reason why the general public in the non-cycling nations look at the cyclists they do have, and reject them and all their crude efforts at control freakery on automobilists out of hand.

Andre Jute
I should get a Nobel Prize for my patience

On Tuesday, December 10, 2019 at 1:36:21 AM UTC, jbeattie wrote:

I think head tubes (and stack heights) have grown as cyclists have gotten older and less flexible.

Absolutely. A guy at a highly reputed British bike maker (whose prices are aimed at an older class of cyclist) told me that the most knowledgeable cyclists ask, often as their first question, some version of "Has the steerer tube been cut?" or "Can you deliver with the steerer tube uncut?"

Andre Jute
Implications

On 12/10/2019 11:32 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/9/2019 11:36 PM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 9 Dec 2019 22:36:07 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 12/9/2019 8:41 PM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 9 Dec 2019 04:27:09 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Monday, December 9, 2019 at 9:21:33 AM UTC+1, John
B. wrote:
On Sun, 8 Dec 2019 23:27:31 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Monday, December 9, 2019 at 12:57:20 AM UTC+1,
John B. wrote:
On Sun, 8 Dec 2019 04:02:35 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 8:20:33 AM UTC+1,
John B. wrote:
On Sat, 7 Dec 2019 23:03:31 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 12:49:42 AM UTC+1,
jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 3:28:56 PM
UTC-8, wrote:
As part of the ordering process of my gravel
bike I was measured last Wednesday to determine
the correct frame size. The measuring program
didn't take the handlebar/shifter/shifter
position into account in contrast to saddle
make and type. I found that strange because
most of the time you are riding on the hoods.
It was a rainy day yesterday so I took the time
to measure all my current bikes which I
adjusted by 'feel' giving the purpose/riding
style of that bike. Results:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/1HbWyM6g1gNqoyMx5

So today I went back to the LBS (another 100 km
round trip) to discuss this. In the meantime
the manufacturer emailed the shop a drawing of
their proposal. Strangely this drawing did show
the measurements of the position of the shifter
on the handlebar and this came very close what
I measured on my bikes especially measurement
E, F and D. With the mechanic we figured out
the correct frame size taking the chosen
handlebar, a stem length of 110 mm and the new
Ultegra shifters and the manufacturers
proposal/my measurements into account. My
question is what do these measurement programs
exactly do? Are there people that close a bike
only based on these measurements?

Lou

Lou, if its a compact, buy a "medium." Done. Why
should it be any more difficult than buying one
of your Canyons?

The measurements are intended to impress you.
Shop drawings and proposals?
What, are you buying from General Dynamics? What
are you buying?

Back in the day, seat tube length was a big
deal, but now with compacts and long seat posts,
the important measurement is TT, so I suppose
they're trying to get your TT just right to size
the bike with a stem that is not too short or
too long, which might affect steering in some
metaphysical way. Unless you're built like ET,
they'll pull a "medium" out of stock, declare it
custom and hand it to you.


Yes that is what I thought. 7 body measurements
(left and right footlength ???) which resulted in
19 adjustment proposals, even a seattube angle of
73.74 degrees. WTF? Bike will be custom build
(parts) but frame will not be custom. I just
wanted the right size to begin with (over-the
counter) and not ending up with a 80 mm stem.
These are good guys btw but they soon found out
that I'm not the average customer ;-) They are
dealers of BMC, Cannondale, Cervelo, IDworx,
Santos, De Rosa, Bianchi and the brand I'm buying
now which made me part of an American family. How
about that for marketing ;-)

Lou.

It used to be much simpler. Buy a bike that you
could stand over; set
the seat height and position; set the stem
position; ride the bike and
make any more changes.

It still works for me :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

Yes I remembered that time, where all frames had
horizontal top tubes, only 2 saddles and handlebars
to choose from and of course that awful quill stem.
Most of the time people rode to large frames. That
time passed thank god.

Lou

Really? And just how are modern bikes fitted better?
Do your feet
reach the pedals better? Do your hands reach the
handlebars better?

Never said that. Chosing a bike frame by just stand
over height doesn't work anymore with sloping top
tubes and handlebars that come in different shapes
(drop and reach).

But tell us how far back your memories reach.
Brooks, for example made
various models of bicycle seats in 1880
--

You are playing silly again.

Well, you said that, " I remembered that time, where
all frames had
horizontal top tubes, only 2 saddles and handlebars to
choose from".

I was amazed that you could be that old and asked you
how far back
your memories went. Certainly if you could remember
back when there
were only two bicycle seats to choose from it must
have been Before
Brooks (for example) started selling more than one
model of seat.

So who's being silly? You for exaggerations to bolster
your arguments?
Or me for questioning your exaggerations?
--
cheers,

John B.

John you started to ridicule todays bike fitting by
stating that the stand over height method and
raising/lowering the saddle and handlebar still works
for you. Bike fitting today and the past is all about
getting your butt, feet and hands on the right position
relative to each other while riding your bike depending
on:
- preference,
- riding style,
- your physical condition/ability,
- body proportions.
Today there is a lot more choices in handlebar
drop/reach, frame geometries and saddles then there
were in the past. They all determine were your butt,
hands and feet end up giving a particular frame. A
simple test if your nutts don't hit the top tube and
the lower/raise a handlebar and saddle would be a not
so smart method to choose a frame size/bike.

Lou

I originally said, "It used to be much simpler" and it
really was. And
"fitting" a bike as I described it accomplishes
everything that your
multi hundred dollar "fittings" do. I assume that you
did notice my
last caveat, "then ride the bike and make any more
changes".

But perhaps you are correct and modern day man needs to
have his bike
"fitted".

It apparently is a recent necessity as I don't believe
that Eddy
Marckx ever had a bike fitting, and he won 11 Grand
Tours and more
than 500 bike races.

For that matter Frank (another old guy) has never
mentioned a bike
fitting and he has ridden across the U.S. and in
innumerable foreign
places, or Jay the intrepid (semi old) who rides to work
come rain or
come shine, who has never mentioned a fitting, or
Terrible Tom (yet
another oldie) who spends his days climbing mountains.

Strange isn't it that none of these old geezers has ever
mentioned
whacking out nearly 300 dollars to have their arse
fitted to a
bicycle and yet they ride/have ridden a substantial
number of
miles/kilometers.

While neither Eddy, nor I, nor (probably) Jay ever paid
for a bike fit,
I suspect that Eddy was supplied with any frame,
component or adjustment
that might make him a tiny bit faster or more
comfortable. I remember
reading that he had serious troubles with saddle sores.
(And BTW, I
really don't think I belong in the same category of
either Eddy or Jay.)

Well, when he was managing his team they rode 200 km three
times a
week, did the sprints and intervals on the off days and
raced on
Sunday. Probably enough miles for anyone to develop saddle
sores :-)

Over the decades, I did make adjustments to my bike fit.
My handlebars
rose by at least an inch, and on one bike they were
brought closer to me
via a shorter stem. It's easy to explain that by lesser
flexibility,
although I'm still quite flexible. (I can still mount our
tandem by
kicking my leg forward over the handlebars plus handlebar
bag.)

My saddle height actually went up a bit over the decades.
I don't really
know why.

But pay for bike fit? No, I've never done that.

I suggest that it is pretty much a matter of knowing what
you are
doing as opposed to not knowing. Which, I suggest, is
where the
"fitting" comes into play. Cholo mentions sizing a bike
for his
customers but have you ever asked for any advise in sizing
a bike? In
the last 20 years?

But I still think that the old criteria - knee over the
center of the
pedal, leg straight with the heel on the pedal and the
distance from
the nose of the seat to the handle bars approximately as
long as your
forearm and bars at a level that in the drops the bars
block vision
of the front axle will probably get the majority into a
comfortable
position that they can perhaps modify a bit as they become
more used
to the bike.

Which solves all problems except for the saddle :-)

FWIW, I don't believe in "bars block vision of the front
axle" is really necessary. If it really works, it must be
for a small subset of bikes.



It is indeed. A common phenomenon for medium size race
bikes but otherwise meaningless.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Frank Krygowski wrote:

:When I first started work as a plant engineer, I was pleased to learn
:that the company was giving me two pairs of dress shoes with steel toes.
:Those are now long, long gone, and I haven't had steel toe shoes since.

At a former job, I worked at a facility that had manufacturing
attached. I learned that everyone who worked in the building,
regardless what they actually did, was entitled to a safety shoe
stipend with the mobile work boot truck that came by a couple times a
year. I got a pair of steel toed wingtips. a few years later, I was
on a site visit to a construction site, and the safety dude wasn't
going to let me on site, because he refused to believe my wingtips
were real safety shoes. I offered to stomp him until he changed his
mind, but the site manager decided to let me in.

:But when I began hanging around machine shops, I soon learned that when
:something is dropped, the proper reflex is not to break its fall with
:your foot, as one might do when drying dishes. The proper reflex is to
:get your feet out of the way and let the object hit the floor.

Yeah. good plan.



--
sig 51

On Tuesday, December 10, 2019 at 9:42:20 AM UTC-6, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Not enough ground conductivity. These work better:
https://www.google.com/search?q=lawn+aerator+shoes&tbm=isch
but have their limitations. For example, they don't work well with
any of my bicycle pedals and tend to shred panniers. However, they do
protect my feet.


Why would they shred your panniers? If the bottom of your feet are hitting your panniers, then you have other problems you need to worry about before footwear. If your heels are hitting the panniers, then your panniers are almost certainly pushed too far forward on the rear rack. Push them back and use some clamps or something to make sure they stay at the back of the rack. And if your problem is because you have size 15 feet, then you will have to get a custom touring bike with extra long chainstays to make sure the rear rack and panniers are back far enough. And you'll just have to live with the large amount of toe overlap with the front wheel.

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

:I believe the correct phrase is "anything worth doing is worth
ver-doing". Anyway, I'm working on the problem starting with
:learning how to walk on water.

that will not leave you properly grounded.

--
sig 54

On Tuesday, December 10, 2019 at 9:39:10 AM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
On Monday, December 9, 2019 at 5:21:37 PM UTC, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 4:32:22 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 3:13:30 AM UTC, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 4:17:45 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 11:49:42 PM UTC, jbeattie wrote:

Lou, if its a compact, buy a "medium." Done. Why should it be any more difficult than buying one of your Canyons?

In Europe bicycle manufacturers take themselves and their customers seriously.

What does it even mean that your bikes fit you to within 1mm? 1mm of what?

1mm of my desired posture on the bike, of course. What else?

My bikes fit me exactly because I have adjusted the saddle height, position and stem length and rise (or purchased a bike with appropriate stack height so I don't need rise). My bikes are exactly fitted to me even though my frames are all over-the-counter. And my fit changes as I get older and creakier and less flexible.

I could ask the same kind of cantankerous question as your question:
What does it even mean that your bikes fit you to within 1mm? 1mm of what?
say, "What does it even mean that your fit changes? From what?" But I won't. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you know what you're talking about.

If you do, you've just made my point for me. If you don't, I already have a knowledgeable source of advice, thanks all the same.

Assuming you had long legs and a tiny torso, you might need a custom frame with a short TT and weird geometry, but assuming you're not misshapen,

The better baukast (a German custom bike house, more precisely semi-custom as some of them are pretty big, and there are some German full-custom makers who'll build you a custom frame from scratch) has a philosophy and a set of frames to match it, and many sets of components approved by being tested to destruction, in the case of my chosen baukast in many cases designed for them by first-class German, Dutch and Belgian component makers. First you ascertain that the philosophy of the main man at the baukast fits you, then you check that one of their bike sizes fits you, then they change components until it fits you perfectly. At my chosen baukast, for instance, they consider tall seatposts bad engineering, as do I. So they want you to sit comfortably with your feet on the pedals without adjusting the designed-in seat height more than fractionally. And so on, point for point matching my outlook/prejudices, desires. Next thing I looked for is that all their bikes are truly scaled because they ordered custom tubes from Columbus, none of those Gunnar abortions of very tall bikes with very short chain stays because that's what the manufacturer had in stock. So their bikes have long wheelbases in relation to size, and that too is good, because I like to know how a bike will handle at the limit before I buy it, and a long wheelbase is half the battle for predictable handling. Etc, etc, a lot of stuff you won't understand, or want to hear, because you find me "tedious".

what basic dimension of your bike is any different from a similarly sized bike with basically the same geometry, vis., the same type of bike?

I own two other bikes that serve the same purpose, from Gazelle and Trek, people with very clued-in designers and marketing departments. My Utopia is fundamentally different in almost every respect, and does a great many things better than they do. But, since you drive a Subaru, and buy your bikes over the counter, you won't understand how these many advantages, some of them objectively small to the uninitiated, can add up to permanent satisfaction. In fact, I think it very likely that you will entirely miss the many advantages and be more concerned that the sum total of the prejudices of my bike maker doesn't add up to a bike that looks like every other bike. I couldn't care less about other people's opinion, but I understand those who'd rather blend with the moo-moo herd.

Your Utopia is a Byzantine mixte with a f****** motor.

You're misinformed, Jay. My bike didn't have a motor when I bought it, nor for several years afterwards. As for "Byzantine", the technical description of the frame is apparently "cross frame priest's bicycle", since it was designed when priests would for another forty years or so wear long coats with split skirts. When you calm down, compose your mind and follow the tubes, and you'll see -- or you can have an engineer explain to you -- why the frame is a stiffer than a big Rolls-Royce motorcar.

Or even the Eiffel Tower, I would imagine.

Why would you even need a custom fit?

I don't know. I never had a custom fit. I never even contemplated having some bike shop kid try to force me into the gorilla crouching in too small a cage posture of the people I see on road bikes. You, Jay Beattie, are the only one who thinks I had a custom fit.

For the record, I know how I like to sit on my bicycle, and I'm not interested in being fitted to a bicycle, I expect the bicycle to be fitted to me, exactly like my tailor fits my clothes to me. I'm amazed that Jay would be so insensitive as to believe I would ever consent to have some clerk bully me into sitting on a bike as he expects me to sit.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/43/8b...9987ece1ca.jpg

Yes. What about it? If you're so outraged about my bicycle (which fits me to within 1mm, and is fast with secure roadholding and handling, and comfortable besides) send me half a dozen of yours and I'll dispose of them thoughtfully. As I said yesterday, "I think it very likely that you will entirely miss the many advantages [of my bicycle] and be more concerned that the sum total of the prejudices of my bike maker doesn't add up to a bike that looks like every other bike." You didn't need to prove it again.

I certainly miss the many advantage of a motor. Absent the motor, I doubt I could muster enough energy to get that boat anchor out of my parking garage after work. What does it weigh, in metric tons?

Plus, we were talking about bike fit, and you suggested that your Utopia Kranich was specially designed for you. It was a "custom" bike. No? Is it just a vanilla Utopia Kranich? How is that Utopia anything?


My wife had a comfort bike like that and whenever I wanted to use it to go to the store, I would just raise the saddle. It had a QR post clamp. Very convenient.

Quite. Whatever wiggles your wick. But trying to make me conform to your prejudices starts a loser and soon gets painful, and after all that is absolutely guaranteed to have not the slightest effect.

-- Jay Beattie.

I love this:
My wife had a comfort bike like that
Jay intends me to be embarrassed about it. Yeah, that's going to work a treat on someone of my proven unimpressionability. If you still dream of being Atticus Finch, you should learn to be less transparent, Jay.

My wife had a comfort bike like that
That sentence is however, much more interestingly, an admission that what I've always said is true: that the roadie crowd believes that what doesn't hurt isn't real cycling. It's just one more reason why the general public in the non-cycling nations look at the cyclists they do have, and reject them and all their crude efforts at control freakery on automobilists out of hand.

The Defeat of Road Cyclists, Act IV, Scene 12 (lots of sets)

Non-Cycling Nation Person: "I reject you, road cyclists!" [center stage, single downlight, fist shaking, looking up]. Fin.

People here ride everything under the sun. https://bikeportland.org/2011/06/22/...r-photos-55300 I don't think they're put off by road cyclists who think every ride should hurt -- plus they exact vengeance with their stupid bright LED headlights.

My comment about my wife's comfort bike was not nearly as sinister as you might think. It's the only balloon tire, upright, step-through bike I've ridden on any regular basis, and I didn't find the fit that challenging, but then again, I was just going to the store and not out to the Gorge.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Tuesday, December 10, 2019 at 6:06:15 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/9/2019 11:41 PM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 9 Dec 2019 22:25:07 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 12/9/2019 5:20 PM, James wrote:
On 10/12/19 4:32 am, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/9/2019 11:59 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 6:48:49 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/8/2019 7:48 PM, James wrote:
On 8/12/19 10:28 am, wrote:
As part of the ordering process of my gravel bike I was
measured last
Wednesday to determine the correct frame size. The
measuring program
didn't take the handlebar/shifter/shifter position into
account in
contrast to saddle make and type. I found that strange
because most
of the time you are riding on the hoods. It was a rainy
day yesterday
so I took the time to measure all my current bikes which I
adjusted
by 'feel' giving the purpose/riding style of that bike.
Results:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/1HbWyM6g1gNqoyMx5

So today I went back to the LBS (another 100 km round
trip) to
discuss this. In the meantime the manufacturer emailed the
shop a
drawing of their proposal. Strangely this drawing did show
the
measurements of the position of the shifter on the
handlebar and this
came very close what I measured on my bikes especially
measurement E,
F and D. With the mechanic we figured out the correct
frame size
taking the chosen handlebar, a stem length of 110 mm and
the new
Ultegra shifters and the manufacturers proposal/my
measurements into
account. My question is what do these measurement programs
exactly
do? Are there people that close a bike only based on these
measurements?


The last bike I bought (gravel) was advertised with a chart
that was scaled to leg length.Â* According to my leg length I
should have chosen an XL frame, but I reviewed the frame
angles and geometry against my custom road racing bike, and
decided on a L size frame.Â* The XL would have had my hands
too high.Â* Even so, with the L frame I have the head stem
all the way down, and I used a longer stem than the supplied
one of course, and I used a longer seat post too.

I also dislike the sloping top tube "compact" design, for
the simple reasons that;

a) longer frame tubes would probably weigh less than a long
seat post, and a longer seat post likely stresses the frame
more.

b) the sloping top tube is very difficult to sit on while
you're stopped somewhere to admire the view and eat a banana.

c) the area in the triangle is reduced which restricts that
available to carry water bottles or frame bags and stuff, if
you so desire.


While bucking current fashion, you are not alone.

The #1 item in custom orders is 'level top tube'.

I wonder why this is the #1 request. Is it people who are invested in
using their old Silca frame pumps?

I suspect it's just aesthetics. And if a person likes it, why not? A
custom bike should accommodate one's quirks.


I identified 3 reasons above that have nothing to do with aesthetics.

Using a frame pump isn't a reason for me, but perhaps for a small group.

The only practical reason I can think for a sloping top tube is
increased stand over clearance, but that has never been a problem for
me.Â* A non-practical reason might be to boast a slightly lesser frame
weight, or stiffness increase perhaps, but these are advertising claims.

I don't disagree with your reasons. But I still bet that for most
people, it's a matter of aesthetics.

You mean two right angle triangles back to back aren't an elegant
sight :-(

That would be a matter of personal taste.

But we're talking about custom bikes here. I'm betting that these days,
the demographic most likely to buy a custom-made bike is a fairly
prosperous middle-aged or older gent who began riding a long, long time
ago. And I'm betting that he (like me) still regards the dream bike of
his youth as the most beautiful.


What is your dream bike Frank (honest question) and what is custom on that frame or bike?

Lou

On Tuesday, December 10, 2019 at 8:56:45 PM UTC, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, December 10, 2019 at 9:39:10 AM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
On Monday, December 9, 2019 at 5:21:37 PM UTC, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 4:32:22 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 3:13:30 AM UTC, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 4:17:45 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 11:49:42 PM UTC, jbeattie wrote:

Lou, if its a compact, buy a "medium." Done. Why should it be any more difficult than buying one of your Canyons?

In Europe bicycle manufacturers take themselves and their customers seriously.

What does it even mean that your bikes fit you to within 1mm? 1mm of what?

1mm of my desired posture on the bike, of course. What else?

My bikes fit me exactly because I have adjusted the saddle height, position and stem length and rise (or purchased a bike with appropriate stack height so I don't need rise). My bikes are exactly fitted to me even though my frames are all over-the-counter. And my fit changes as I get older and creakier and less flexible.

I could ask the same kind of cantankerous question as your question:
What does it even mean that your bikes fit you to within 1mm? 1mm of what?
say, "What does it even mean that your fit changes? From what?" But I won't. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you know what you're talking about.

If you do, you've just made my point for me. If you don't, I already have a knowledgeable source of advice, thanks all the same.

Assuming you had long legs and a tiny torso, you might need a custom frame with a short TT and weird geometry, but assuming you're not misshapen,

The better baukast (a German custom bike house, more precisely semi-custom as some of them are pretty big, and there are some German full-custom makers who'll build you a custom frame from scratch) has a philosophy and a set of frames to match it, and many sets of components approved by being tested to destruction, in the case of my chosen baukast in many cases designed for them by first-class German, Dutch and Belgian component makers. First you ascertain that the philosophy of the main man at the baukast fits you, then you check that one of their bike sizes fits you, then they change components until it fits you perfectly. At my chosen baukast, for instance, they consider tall seatposts bad engineering, as do I. So they want you to sit comfortably with your feet on the pedals without adjusting the designed-in seat height more than fractionally. And so on, point for point matching my outlook/prejudices, desires. Next thing I looked for is that all their bikes are truly scaled because they ordered custom tubes from Columbus, none of those Gunnar abortions of very tall bikes with very short chain stays because that's what the manufacturer had in stock. So their bikes have long wheelbases in relation to size, and that too is good, because I like to know how a bike will handle at the limit before I buy it, and a long wheelbase is half the battle for predictable handling. Etc, etc, a lot of stuff you won't understand, or want to hear, because you find me "tedious".

what basic dimension of your bike is any different from a similarly sized bike with basically the same geometry, vis., the same type of bike?

I own two other bikes that serve the same purpose, from Gazelle and Trek, people with very clued-in designers and marketing departments. My Utopia is fundamentally different in almost every respect, and does a great many things better than they do. But, since you drive a Subaru, and buy your bikes over the counter, you won't understand how these many advantages, some of them objectively small to the uninitiated, can add up to permanent satisfaction. In fact, I think it very likely that you will entirely miss the many advantages and be more concerned that the sum total of the prejudices of my bike maker doesn't add up to a bike that looks like every other bike.. I couldn't care less about other people's opinion, but I understand those who'd rather blend with the moo-moo herd.

Your Utopia is a Byzantine mixte with a f****** motor.

You're misinformed, Jay. My bike didn't have a motor when I bought it, nor for several years afterwards. As for "Byzantine", the technical description of the frame is apparently "cross frame priest's bicycle", since it was designed when priests would for another forty years or so wear long coats with split skirts. When you calm down, compose your mind and follow the tubes, and you'll see -- or you can have an engineer explain to you -- why the frame is a stiffer than a big Rolls-Royce motorcar.

Or even the Eiffel Tower, I would imagine.

Dunno. Never analysed the Eiffel.

Why would you even need a custom fit?

I don't know. I never had a custom fit. I never even contemplated having some bike shop kid try to force me into the gorilla crouching in too small a cage posture of the people I see on road bikes. You, Jay Beattie, are the only one who thinks I had a custom fit.

For the record, I know how I like to sit on my bicycle, and I'm not interested in being fitted to a bicycle, I expect the bicycle to be fitted to me, exactly like my tailor fits my clothes to me. I'm amazed that Jay would be so insensitive as to believe I would ever consent to have some clerk bully me into sitting on a bike as he expects me to sit.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/43/8b...9987ece1ca.jpg

Yes. What about it? If you're so outraged about my bicycle (which fits me to within 1mm, and is fast with secure roadholding and handling, and comfortable besides) send me half a dozen of yours and I'll dispose of them thoughtfully. As I said yesterday, "I think it very likely that you will entirely miss the many advantages [of my bicycle] and be more concerned that the sum total of the prejudices of my bike maker doesn't add up to a bike that looks like every other bike." You didn't need to prove it again.

I certainly miss the many advantage of a motor. Absent the motor, I doubt I could muster enough energy to get that boat anchor out of my parking garage after work. What does it weigh, in metric tons?

0.00748 short tonnes. I have two ali bikes that similarly trimmed are heavier. You can look up for yourself how my bike gets to be so light.

Plus, we were talking about bike fit, and you suggested that your Utopia Kranich was specially designed for you.

"Suggested" is your wishful thinking when I catch you out trying to put words in my mouth. Point to where I said something specific.

It was a "custom" bike. No?

"No?" or "Yes?" or "Who knows?" Do you bully your wife with this sort of ill-mannered insistence framed in your prejudices?

Is it just a vanilla Utopia Kranich?

At what stage in the bicycle's lifespan with me are you referring to? My particular bike was never "vanilla" even as a bare frame, and the reasons have been published long since, so go look them up.

How is that Utopia anything?

Do you mean Utopia as a noun or an adjective? For instance as in "How is that Utopia-anything?"

How is that Utopia anything?

Also, as that sentence stands, you should make up your mind if you have one.. It's either a "boat anchor" (before you asked the weight!) or it is nothing. Which is it, Jay? Do you conduct your profession as an attorney with this much imprecision?

WTF is this dull inquisition? What makes you think I owe you answers to such offensively put questions?

My wife had a comfort bike like that and whenever I wanted to use it to go to the store, I would just raise the saddle. It had a QR post clamp. Very convenient.

Quite. Whatever wiggles your wick. But trying to make me conform to your prejudices starts a loser and soon gets painful, and after all that is absolutely guaranteed to have not the slightest effect.

-- Jay Beattie.

I love this:
My wife had a comfort bike like that
Jay intends me to be embarrassed about it. Yeah, that's going to work a treat on someone of my proven unimpressionability. If you still dream of being Atticus Finch, you should learn to be less transparent, Jay.

My wife had a comfort bike like that
That sentence is however, much more interestingly, an admission that what I've always said is true: that the roadie crowd believes that what doesn't hurt isn't real cycling. It's just one more reason why the general public in the non-cycling nations look at the cyclists they do have, and reject them and all their crude efforts at control freakery on automobilists out of hand.

The Defeat of Road Cyclists, Act IV, Scene 12 (lots of sets)

Roadies aren't important enough for anyone to wish to "defeat" them. The damage they've done to opportunities to persuade the mass to cycle is done and cannot be undone, especially in America, where the entire infrastructure is automobile-based.

Non-Cycling Nation Person: "I reject you, road cyclists!" [center stage, single downlight, fist shaking, looking up]. Fin.

People here ride everything under the sun. https://bikeportland.org/2011/06/22/...r-photos-55300 I don't think they're put off by road cyclists who think every ride should hurt -- plus they exact vengeance with their stupid bright LED headlights.

Read what I wrote again. You're suffering comprehension shortfalls again: I was not talking about the reactions of other cyclists.

My comment about my wife's comfort bike was not nearly as sinister as you might think.

For "sinister" you have to try harder.

It's the only balloon tire, upright, step-through bike I've ridden on any regular basis, and I didn't find the fit that challenging, but then again, I was just going to the store and not out to the Gorge.

And, by your own account, you don't find comfort important on a bike.

-- Jay Beattie.

Man, on the evidence of this, don't even think of giving up your day job to become a prosecutor. The dumbest malefactor will run circles around your wishful wishy-washy "trick" questions and you'll starve or have to crawl back to doing conveyances.

Enough. I'm out of this schoolgirl bickering, away to cut the plate for my Christmas cards.

Andre Jute
Nothing to learn here, moving on to something constructive right smartly