Cross 3 or 4

I am threading a new wheel, and have a set of good spokes I can
recycle from another rim. It turns out that if I use cross 4,
I can use the old spokes (which are quite expensive strong Swiss
ones). The hub is a spoke eater Torpedo hub.

So my question is, is there a difference in the strain on the
spokes between 3- and 4-cross? I do have small washers at the
spoke "elbows" which seems to work, but I'd like to know whether
there is difference anyway.
--
Dieter Britz (dieterhansbritzatgmail.com)

On Jul 25, 10:23*am, Dieter Britz wrote:
I am threading a new wheel, and have a set of good spokes I can
recycle from another rim. It turns out that if I use cross 4,
I can use the old spokes (which are quite expensive strong Swiss
ones). The hub is a spoke eater Torpedo hub.

So my question is, is there a difference in the strain on the
spokes between 3- and 4-cross? I do have small washers at the
spoke "elbows" which seems to work, but I'd like to know whether
there is difference anyway.

What appears to me to be most important is the angle the spokes
leaving the inside of the flange show to the flange. The angle should
be as low as you can get it to prevent failure of the inner spokes at
their elbows. With the typical small hub flange this means that a
cross 3 is preferred on a 36 spoke wheel. A cross 4 moves the angle
so that it benefits (in preventing elbow fatigue) from double tied and
soldered. Getting the crossing nearest the rim, nearer to the rim
using more crossings or a wider flange will result in a wheel with
more accurate tracking as will tying and soldering.
The small washers are used under the spoke heads to pull the elbows
tight against the flange. The use of punches to set the heads and
elbows is prefered to eliminate the need for both settling in and
overstressing the spokes in an attempt to better the wheel.

In article ,
Dieter Britz wrote:

I am threading a new wheel, and have a set of good spokes I can
recycle from another rim. It turns out that if I use cross 4,
I can use the old spokes (which are quite expensive strong Swiss
ones). The hub is a spoke eater Torpedo hub.

So my question is, is there a difference in the strain on the
spokes between 3- and 4-cross?

The purpose of crossed lacing is to get the stress
on the hub flange drillings to be near tangential.

The answer to your question is yes, but you need not
concern yourself with the difference. After lacing
the spokes, and before bringing them up to working
tension, you should shape the spokes near the elbow
so that the spokes aim toward the rim drillings.
This reduces the built in strains near the elbows.
Usually we reuse spokes only in the same hub when
changing the rim.

I do have small washers at the
spoke "elbows" which seems to work, but I'd like to know whether
there is difference anyway.

--
Michael Press

Dieter Britz wrote:

I am threading a new wheel, and have a set of good spokes I can
recycle from another rim. It turns out that if I use cross 4,
I can use the old spokes (which are quite expensive strong Swiss
ones). The hub is a spoke eater Torpedo hub.

So my question is, is there a difference in the strain on the
spokes between 3- and 4-cross? I do have small washers at the
spoke "elbows" which seems to work, but I'd like to know whether
there is difference anyway.

I you have spokes for cross-4 lacing, use them.

Cross-4 on 32 spoke wheels is past tangential, and makes no sense.
Cross-4 on 48 spoke wheels is the same as cross-3 on 36 spoke wheels:
a sensible and uncomplicated pattern that puts minimal stress on the
hub flange.

But cross-4 on 36 spoke wheels is the closest to purely tangential
lacing you can get with that spoke count. On a low-flange hub, the
spokes can overlap adjacent spokes' heads, making repairs of broken
spokes a bit more complicated than necessary. And if the hub flange
is large or the rim is small, spokes can enter the rim at a too-sharp
angle. But there are no other drawbacks to it.

Chalo

Michael Press wrote:

In article ,
Dieter Britz wrote:

I am threading a new wheel, and have a set of good spokes I can
recycle from another rim. It turns out that if I use cross 4,
I can use the old spokes (which are quite expensive strong Swiss
ones). The hub is a spoke eater Torpedo hub.

So my question is, is there a difference in the strain on the
spokes between 3- and 4-cross?

The purpose of crossed lacing is to get the stress
on the hub flange drillings to be near tangential.

The answer to your question is yes, but you need not
concern yourself with the difference. After lacing
the spokes, and before bringing them up to working
tension, you should shape the spokes near the elbow
so that the spokes aim toward the rim drillings.
This reduces the built in strains near the elbows.
Usually we reuse spokes only in the same hub when
changing the rim.

How do I "shape the spokes"? When I have laced them all,
they are more or less at their final angles with respect
to the rim where they enter the rim. How can that be
changed?

Am I correct in assuming that the ideal is that the spoke
enters the rim at right angles to the rim tangent, and close
to tangent to the hub flange? I suppose a real wheel must make
a compromise between the two. The reason I am doing this is
that on a rim I have, one spoke has almost pulled itself
through the rim hole and will come out any day now.

And, the only reason I am considering the 4x pattern is that
then, I can reuse the spokes I have, and would save me the
money for new, shorter, ones.
--
Dieter Britz (dieterhansbritzatgmail.com)

On Jul 26, 7:26*am, Chalo wrote:
Dieter Britz wrote:

I am threading a new wheel, and have a set of good spokes I can
recycle from another rim. It turns out that if I use cross 4,
I can use the old spokes (which are quite expensive strong Swiss
ones). The hub is a spoke eater Torpedo hub.

So my question is, is there a difference in the strain on the
spokes between 3- and 4-cross? I do have small washers at the
spoke "elbows" which seems to work, but I'd like to know whether
there is difference anyway.

I you have spokes for cross-4 lacing, use them.

Cross-4 on 32 spoke wheels is past tangential, and makes no sense.
Cross-4 on 48 spoke wheels is the same as cross-3 on 36 spoke wheels:
a sensible and uncomplicated pattern that puts minimal stress on the
hub flange.

But cross-4 on 36 spoke wheels is the closest to purely tangential
lacing you can get with that spoke count. *

But it is a poor choice (unless tied and soldered) when the hub is
offset due to the larger declination angle it forms to the hub
flange. This will tend to overly strain the spoke elbow and head,
particulary if setting tools are avoided, and so will lead to a less
than extensive lifespan.

On a low-flange hub, the
spokes can overlap adjacent spokes' heads, making repairs of broken
spokes a bit more complicated than necessary. *And if the hub flange
is large or the rim is small, spokes can enter the rim at a too-sharp
angle. *But there are no other drawbacks to it.

Chalo

On Jul 26, 9:31*am, Dieter Britz wrote:
Michael Press wrote:
In article ,
*Dieter Britz wrote:

I am threading a new wheel, and have a set of good spokes I can
recycle from another rim. It turns out that if I use cross 4,
I can use the old spokes (which are quite expensive strong Swiss
ones). The hub is a spoke eater Torpedo hub.

So my question is, is there a difference in the strain on the
spokes between 3- and 4-cross?

The purpose of crossed lacing is to get the stress
on the hub flange drillings to be near tangential.

The answer to your question is yes, but you need not
concern yourself with the difference. After lacing
the spokes, and before bringing them up to working
tension, you should shape the spokes near the elbow
so that the spokes aim toward the rim drillings.
This reduces the built in strains near the elbows.
Usually we reuse spokes only in the same hub when
changing the rim.

How do I "shape the spokes"? When I have laced them all,
they are more or less at their final angles with respect
to the rim where they enter the rim. How can that be
changed?

Use an 8" long starting punch with a 3/16" hollow ground tip and a
hammer. A nail set may do but they don't generally have the reach
required for comfortable use. First strike in the heads then strike
in the elbows. Two small flat cone spanners used around the
interleaved crossing may be used to correct the spoke line there.
Don't mess with the spokes near to the rim. If it appears they have
not seated with the spokes leading straight to the crossing (use a
straight edge with a lowered spoke tension) then the rim's spoke
seating requires adjustment. A punch with a flat or convexed point is
most appropriate. Sometimes though it is just a case of elongating
the eyelet a little using a tapered punch which fits through it.

Am I correct in assuming that the ideal is that the spoke
enters the rim at right angles to the rim tangent, and close
to tangent to the hub flange?

The two are mutually exclusive unless some additional wiring is
performed pulling the near to parallel spokes together halfway between
their bindings at the interlace and the rim. It's additional work
which I doubt will reap any requsite practical rewards.

I suppose a real wheel must make
a compromise between the two. The reason I am doing this is
that on a rim I have, one spoke has almost pulled itself
through the rim hole and will come out any day now.

Use less spoke tension.

And, the only reason I am considering the 4x pattern is that
then, I can reuse the spokes I have, and would save me the
money for new, shorter, ones.

Well just do it. I ran a 32 spoke with cross 4 lacing a number of
years because I had the spokes. You have to be careful in setting the
spoke heads, which becomes essential on the outside of the flange due
to the outer spokes then bearing on the adjacent spoke's head. You
may also wish to create a slight bend here in the outer spokes to
minimise their bending strains in use.

There was never any practical problems with me running a 32 spoke rear
wheel with cross 4 spoking, but after 4 years I decided I needed to
rectify the "error". I'd actually had no problems with my bike apart
from a slightly soft rear wheel playing up in the corners and really
just needed something to do and new spokes and rear derailleur was
that something. At that time I failed to really address the issue of
the wheel's laterally soft response but phsychologically there was an
improvement.

On Jul 26, 1:26*am, Chalo wrote:
Dieter Britz wrote:

I am threading a new wheel, and have a set of good spokes I can
recycle from another rim. It turns out that if I use cross 4,
I can use the old spokes (which are quite expensive strong Swiss
ones). The hub is a spoke eater Torpedo hub.

So my question is, is there a difference in the strain on the
spokes between 3- and 4-cross? I do have small washers at the
spoke "elbows" which seems to work, but I'd like to know whether
there is difference anyway.

I you have spokes for cross-4 lacing, use them.

Cross-4 on 32 spoke wheels is past tangential, and makes no sense.
Cross-4 on 48 spoke wheels is the same as cross-3 on 36 spoke wheels:
a sensible and uncomplicated pattern that puts minimal stress on the
hub flange.

But cross-4 on 36 spoke wheels is the closest to purely tangential
lacing you can get with that spoke count. *On a low-flange hub, the
spokes can overlap adjacent spokes' heads, making repairs of broken
spokes a bit more complicated than necessary. *And if the hub flange
is large or the rim is small, spokes can enter the rim at a too-sharp
angle. *But there are no other drawbacks to it.

Chalo

Yup. I've done a x4 on a small flange with that very result. Hopefully
the guy I sold the bike to won't ever brake a spoke...

In article ,
Dieter Britz wrote:

Michael Press wrote:

In article ,
Dieter Britz wrote:

I am threading a new wheel, and have a set of good spokes I can
recycle from another rim. It turns out that if I use cross 4,
I can use the old spokes (which are quite expensive strong Swiss
ones). The hub is a spoke eater Torpedo hub.

So my question is, is there a difference in the strain on the
spokes between 3- and 4-cross?

The purpose of crossed lacing is to get the stress
on the hub flange drillings to be near tangential.

The answer to your question is yes, but you need not
concern yourself with the difference. After lacing
the spokes, and before bringing them up to working
tension, you should shape the spokes near the elbow
so that the spokes aim toward the rim drillings.
This reduces the built in strains near the elbows.
Usually we reuse spokes only in the same hub when
changing the rim.

How do I "shape the spokes"? When I have laced them all,
they are more or less at their final angles with respect
to the rim where they enter the rim. How can that be
changed?

If the spokes aim at the rim in a laced and un-tensioned
wheel, then everything is fine. If the spokes bow out at
the hub, a bit of thumb pressure on the spoke at the hub
flange will bend the spoke enough to get it aimed at the rim.

Am I correct in assuming that the ideal is that the spoke
enters the rim at right angles to the rim tangent, and close
to tangent to the hub flange?

Yes. Sometimes a spoke needs a bit of correction at the
nipple end to make the nipple seat at a right angle
even though the spoke is not at a right angle.

These adjustments are to reduce built in stress in the spoke.

I suppose a real wheel must make
a compromise between the two. The reason I am doing this is
that on a rim I have, one spoke has almost pulled itself
through the rim hole and will come out any day now.

And, the only reason I am considering the 4x pattern is that
then, I can reuse the spokes I have, and would save me the
money for new, shorter, ones.

Okay. Good luck.

--
Michael Press

Chalo wrote:

But cross-4 on 36 spoke wheels is the closest to purely tangential
lacing you can get with that spoke count. On a low-flange hub, the
spokes can overlap adjacent spokes' heads, making repairs of broken
spokes a bit more complicated than necessary. And if the hub flange
is large or the rim is small, spokes can enter the rim at a too-sharp
angle. But there are no other drawbacks to it.

I think you've just convinced me to bite the bullet, get a set of shorter
spokes and thread them with 3x. This is because not only do I have spoke
heads, but these washers under the head, to prevent spokes breaking. They
must interfere with adjacent spokes more than the heads themselves.

Thanks everybody for your input. "Everything is illuminated".
--
Dieter Britz (dieterhansbritzatgmail.com)