Redline Conquest

On 10/21/2019 6:21 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/21/2019 4:00 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/21/2019 4:15 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, 21 October 2019 13:43:07 UTC-4, AMuziÂ* wrote:

It was mandated by the Federal government through CPSC
regulations of 1974. At one time, there were a half-dozen
styles ranging from elegant to Rube Goldberg. The infamous
'lawyer lips' won out.


1974? AreÂ* you sure? I saw many bikes in the mid-1980s
that did not have lawyer lips.

Good catch. Our 1986 Cannondales never had them, AFAIK.
Maybe it wasn't a CPSC mandate, but instead a voluntary
reaction to lawsuits?


As with so much of life (how's that 100-year old worldwide Heroin ban
going?) intent and results may and usually do differ:

https://www.cpsc.gov/Newsroom/News-R...anuary-1-1975/

OK, that cinches it. ... or ... ??? wait, see below.

Enforcement was uneven at best. Large manufacturers suffered, small to
midsize ignored the regulations usually.

I'd have thought Cannondale was big enough then to attract regulator
attention. But anyway:

To double check my memory, I went downstairs to see if there was
evidence I did file "lips" off the Cannondale dropouts. I couldn't see
any visual evidence. But I'd saved the owner's manual that came with our
1986 bikes, copyright 1985.

Page 10 and 11 are devoted to "Wheel Installation and Adjustment," well
over 500 words of minute detail on "Wheels with Quick Release Mechanism"
with steps 1, 2a, 2b, 2c, 3a and 3b. LOTS of detail! They were clearly
worried about this.

But after the penultimate paragraph on "Wheels with Nut Attachment" is a
short paragraph on "Front Wheel Retainers":

"Consumer Product Safety Commission standards require that all bicycles
that have front wheels that attach to the fork with nuts instead of
quick release mechanism must have a device that will hold the wheel in
place even when the nuts are not tight..." etc.

So they claim it's only for _nutted_ axles. Which I admit, seems very weird!

The illustration just below shows how to fit their "retainer." It's
essentially a washer with an extended tab containing an elongated hole.
Their exploded view shows that washer slides over the axle, and the tab
is intended to screw to an eyelet on top of the fork dropout - the one
on a double eyelet fork that sometimes supports a front rack.

I don't know any more about the discrepancy.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 10/21/2019 6:15 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/21/2019 3:16 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

I often thought that a 3-speed SA or Shimano internal gear hub and a
triple crank would be ideal for a lot of people.

Cheers


Being a happy three speed rider for many long years I'm not so sure
about that.

Front changers and a chain tensioner conflict with the simplicity of an
internal gear system. Even Raleigh's Cyclo conversion kit to add two or
3 sprockets to a Sturmey AW gearbox was not all that popular. And that
used long lasting inexpensive 1/8" chain rather than skinny 3/32" chain.
Triple is s tough sell to our crowd.

And while the crowd may be relatively small, it contains enthusiastic
members!

Shortly after I built up my three speed, I rode it to the post office
one Saturday. While I was arguing with a computerized postage machine, a
guy came inside and asked "Excuse me, who owns the three speed bike
outside?"

When I said it was mine, he drooled over it for a ten minute
conversation. He said "I _LOVE_ three speed bikes!" I had the impression
that if he'd owned an all-chrome Paramount, he'd probably have traded it
to me.

Many internal gearbox cyclists merely change the sprocket, most often
from the standard 18t to a 20t, 22t or 24t, which is cheap and quick,
dropping the whole range down somewhat.

I may be going the other direction with a young lad I know. He tells me
he can now climb all the hills in his 3rd (high) gear. :-)

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 1:10:49 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, 21 October 2019 12:31:55 UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/21/2019 11:34 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 7:47:07 AM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, 21 October 2019 10:41:09 UTC-4, wrote:
On Thursday, October 17, 2019 at 12:22:06 AM UTC+2, wrote:
On Wednesday, October 16, 2019 at 3:12:32 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, October 16, 2019 at 11:59:37 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
Everyone always grinds lawyer's lips off as a first order of maintenance.

Really? On CF forks? Not me.

-- Jay Beattie.

As much as it pains me, I'll sort of agree with Tom on this. On all but one of my bikes I have ground off the tabs on the fork ends. The only fork I did not grind off is a carbon fork with an aero blade so the fork end is about 2 inches long. Can't grind that much metal off. All my carbon forks have aluminum dropouts, not carbon dropouts. So grinding is safe.

Even on carbon dropouts I grind off the laywer lips. On my CF bikes it is just a little carbon blob. Grinding, actually filling, off that little blob doesn't compromize the strength of your fork. It is as save as shorten your CF steerer tube or MTB handlebar. There is no load on that part.



Which brings up an irritation. With no fork tabs, you do not have to unscrew the dropout nut. Just flip the lever and the wheel falls out and goes back in perfectly. But sometimes when getting rides from friends, they will take the front wheel off my bike to put it on a rack. And when they take the front wheel off, the very first thing they do is start unscrewing the quick release nut. Which messes up my quick release width and I have to then readjust the dang thing when putting the wheel back on. Most bicyclists have been made stupid and dumb from this dumb fork tab feature. They no longer know how to correctly remove a front wheel on a bicycle.

+1 Laywer lips is an incredible stupid safety feature. Every time you take out your frontwheel creates a safety hazard.

An inconvenience, yes, but I don't think they're a safety hazard.

Not a huge hazard, but I think the hazard is there. Lawyer lips exist
specifically for the benefit of people who don't know how to adjust and
operate a quick release. But they force those people to re-adjust the
quick release every time they use it! That's just weird.

Admittedly, I haven't tried riding with a wheel loosely held in just by
the lawyer lips, so I don't know how much stability is lost. But to me,
it seems like a bad solution.

I think of it as perhaps the first "racing bike" feature that marketing
trickled down from enthusiasts to JRA folks, for no real practical reason.

--
- Frank Krygowski

A surprising number of people use a quick release like a one-sided wing nut. They just turn the lever until the thing feels tight and often the curve of the lever is facing away from the wheel.

Cheers

While I have never seen that I think that it was a good idea to warn Frank.

On 10/21/2019 6:48 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/21/2019 6:21 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/21/2019 4:00 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/21/2019 4:15 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, 21 October 2019 13:43:07 UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:

It was mandated by the Federal government through CPSC
regulations of 1974. At one time, there were a half-dozen
styles ranging from elegant to Rube Goldberg. The infamous
'lawyer lips' won out.


1974? Are you sure? I saw many bikes in the mid-1980s
that did not have lawyer lips.

Good catch. Our 1986 Cannondales never had them, AFAIK.
Maybe it wasn't a CPSC mandate, but instead a voluntary
reaction to lawsuits?


As with so much of life (how's that 100-year old worldwide
Heroin ban going?) intent and results may and usually do
differ:

https://www.cpsc.gov/Newsroom/News-R...anuary-1-1975/


OK, that cinches it. ... or ... ??? wait, see below.

Enforcement was uneven at best. Large manufacturers
suffered, small to midsize ignored the regulations usually.

I'd have thought Cannondale was big enough then to attract
regulator attention. But anyway:

To double check my memory, I went downstairs to see if there
was evidence I did file "lips" off the Cannondale dropouts.
I couldn't see any visual evidence. But I'd saved the
owner's manual that came with our 1986 bikes, copyright 1985.

Page 10 and 11 are devoted to "Wheel Installation and
Adjustment," well over 500 words of minute detail on "Wheels
with Quick Release Mechanism" with steps 1, 2a, 2b, 2c, 3a
and 3b. LOTS of detail! They were clearly worried about this.

But after the penultimate paragraph on "Wheels with Nut
Attachment" is a short paragraph on "Front Wheel Retainers":

"Consumer Product Safety Commission standards require that
all bicycles that have front wheels that attach to the fork
with nuts instead of quick release mechanism must have a
device that will hold the wheel in place even when the nuts
are not tight..." etc.

So they claim it's only for _nutted_ axles. Which I admit,
seems very weird!

The illustration just below shows how to fit their
"retainer." It's essentially a washer with an extended tab
containing an elongated hole. Their exploded view shows that
washer slides over the axle, and the tab is intended to
screw to an eyelet on top of the fork dropout - the one on a
double eyelet fork that sometimes supports a front rack.

I don't know any more about the discrepancy.


Me neither. I wonder if Cannondale just made that up.

Some brands (Bridgestone) were both quite diligent about
that as well as frenetically creative, with some decidedly
loopy hardware.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 07:47:05 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Monday, 21 October 2019 10:41:09 UTC-4, wrote:
On Thursday, October 17, 2019 at 12:22:06 AM UTC+2, wrote:
On Wednesday, October 16, 2019 at 3:12:32 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, October 16, 2019 at 11:59:37 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
Everyone always grinds lawyer's lips off as a first order of maintenance.

Really? On CF forks? Not me.

-- Jay Beattie.

As much as it pains me, I'll sort of agree with Tom on this. On all but one of my bikes I have ground off the tabs on the fork ends. The only fork I did not grind off is a carbon fork with an aero blade so the fork end is about 2 inches long. Can't grind that much metal off. All my carbon forks have aluminum dropouts, not carbon dropouts. So grinding is safe.

Even on carbon dropouts I grind off the laywer lips. On my CF bikes it is just a little carbon blob. Grinding, actually filling, off that little blob doesn't compromize the strength of your fork. It is as save as shorten your CF steerer tube or MTB handlebar. There is no load on that part.



Which brings up an irritation. With no fork tabs, you do not have to unscrew the dropout nut. Just flip the lever and the wheel falls out and goes back in perfectly. But sometimes when getting rides from friends, they will take the front wheel off my bike to put it on a rack. And when they take the front wheel off, the very first thing they do is start unscrewing the quick release nut. Which messes up my quick release width and I have to then readjust the dang thing when putting the wheel back on. Most bicyclists have been made stupid and dumb from this dumb fork tab feature. They no longer know how to correctly remove a front wheel on a bicycle.

+1 Laywer lips is an incredible stupid safety feature. Every time you take out your frontwheel creates a safety hazard.

Lou

Lawyer Lips almost defeat the purpose of having a quick release.

Cheers

Really? I can't say that I have any problems removing a wheel, with a
quick release, from a fork with lawyer's lips.
--
cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 12:31:52 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 10/21/2019 11:34 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 7:47:07 AM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, 21 October 2019 10:41:09 UTC-4, wrote:
On Thursday, October 17, 2019 at 12:22:06 AM UTC+2, wrote:
On Wednesday, October 16, 2019 at 3:12:32 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, October 16, 2019 at 11:59:37 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
Everyone always grinds lawyer's lips off as a first order of maintenance.

Really? On CF forks? Not me.

-- Jay Beattie.

As much as it pains me, I'll sort of agree with Tom on this. On all but one of my bikes I have ground off the tabs on the fork ends. The only fork I did not grind off is a carbon fork with an aero blade so the fork end is about 2 inches long. Can't grind that much metal off. All my carbon forks have aluminum dropouts, not carbon dropouts. So grinding is safe.

Even on carbon dropouts I grind off the laywer lips. On my CF bikes it is just a little carbon blob. Grinding, actually filling, off that little blob doesn't compromize the strength of your fork. It is as save as shorten your CF steerer tube or MTB handlebar. There is no load on that part.



Which brings up an irritation. With no fork tabs, you do not have to unscrew the dropout nut. Just flip the lever and the wheel falls out and goes back in perfectly. But sometimes when getting rides from friends, they will take the front wheel off my bike to put it on a rack. And when they take the front wheel off, the very first thing they do is start unscrewing the quick release nut. Which messes up my quick release width and I have to then readjust the dang thing when putting the wheel back on. Most bicyclists have been made stupid and dumb from this dumb fork tab feature. They no longer know how to correctly remove a front wheel on a bicycle.

+1 Laywer lips is an incredible stupid safety feature. Every time you take out your frontwheel creates a safety hazard.

An inconvenience, yes, but I don't think they're a safety hazard.

Not a huge hazard, but I think the hazard is there. Lawyer lips exist
specifically for the benefit of people who don't know how to adjust and
operate a quick release. But they force those people to re-adjust the
quick release every time they use it! That's just weird.

Admittedly, I haven't tried riding with a wheel loosely held in just by
the lawyer lips, so I don't know how much stability is lost. But to me,
it seems like a bad solution.

I did, for a short distance. I apparently didn't close the quick
release or somehow knocked it open and started out. We have speed
humps in the housing area and when I went over one I thought the bike
felt funny so stopped and checked and Lo! The quick release was loose.
The wheel didn't fall out, but I should point out that happened once
in maybe 20 years :-)

I think of it as perhaps the first "racing bike" feature that marketing
trickled down from enthusiasts to JRA folks, for no real practical reason.

Naw, if we still used wing nuts people would be hammering them "tight"
and stripping the threads and the wheels would be falling out, perhaps
as often as they do today with quick releases :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

On Monday, 21 October 2019 20:54:11 UTC-4, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 07:47:05 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Monday, 21 October 2019 10:41:09 UTC-4, wrote:
On Thursday, October 17, 2019 at 12:22:06 AM UTC+2, wrote:
On Wednesday, October 16, 2019 at 3:12:32 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, October 16, 2019 at 11:59:37 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
Everyone always grinds lawyer's lips off as a first order of maintenance.

Really? On CF forks? Not me.

-- Jay Beattie.

As much as it pains me, I'll sort of agree with Tom on this. On all but one of my bikes I have ground off the tabs on the fork ends. The only fork I did not grind off is a carbon fork with an aero blade so the fork end is about 2 inches long. Can't grind that much metal off. All my carbon forks have aluminum dropouts, not carbon dropouts. So grinding is safe.

Even on carbon dropouts I grind off the laywer lips. On my CF bikes it is just a little carbon blob. Grinding, actually filling, off that little blob doesn't compromize the strength of your fork. It is as save as shorten your CF steerer tube or MTB handlebar. There is no load on that part.



Which brings up an irritation. With no fork tabs, you do not have to unscrew the dropout nut. Just flip the lever and the wheel falls out and goes back in perfectly. But sometimes when getting rides from friends, they will take the front wheel off my bike to put it on a rack. And when they take the front wheel off, the very first thing they do is start unscrewing the quick release nut. Which messes up my quick release width and I have to then readjust the dang thing when putting the wheel back on. Most bicyclists have been made stupid and dumb from this dumb fork tab feature. They no longer know how to correctly remove a front wheel on a bicycle.

+1 Laywer lips is an incredible stupid safety feature. Every time you take out your frontwheel creates a safety hazard.

Lou

Lawyer Lips almost defeat the purpose of having a quick release.

Cheers

Really? I can't say that I have any problems removing a wheel, with a
quick release, from a fork with lawyer's lips.
--
cheers,

John B.

You have to turn the quick release lever to open the thing enough to get past those lawyer lips. Without the lawyer lips you just need to open the quick release to drop out the wheel.

Cheers

On Monday, 21 October 2019 21:04:06 UTC-4, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 12:31:52 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 10/21/2019 11:34 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 7:47:07 AM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, 21 October 2019 10:41:09 UTC-4, wrote:
On Thursday, October 17, 2019 at 12:22:06 AM UTC+2, wrote:
On Wednesday, October 16, 2019 at 3:12:32 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, October 16, 2019 at 11:59:37 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
Everyone always grinds lawyer's lips off as a first order of maintenance.

Really? On CF forks? Not me.

-- Jay Beattie.

As much as it pains me, I'll sort of agree with Tom on this. On all but one of my bikes I have ground off the tabs on the fork ends. The only fork I did not grind off is a carbon fork with an aero blade so the fork end is about 2 inches long. Can't grind that much metal off. All my carbon forks have aluminum dropouts, not carbon dropouts. So grinding is safe.

Even on carbon dropouts I grind off the laywer lips. On my CF bikes it is just a little carbon blob. Grinding, actually filling, off that little blob doesn't compromize the strength of your fork. It is as save as shorten your CF steerer tube or MTB handlebar. There is no load on that part.



Which brings up an irritation. With no fork tabs, you do not have to unscrew the dropout nut. Just flip the lever and the wheel falls out and goes back in perfectly. But sometimes when getting rides from friends, they will take the front wheel off my bike to put it on a rack. And when they take the front wheel off, the very first thing they do is start unscrewing the quick release nut. Which messes up my quick release width and I have to then readjust the dang thing when putting the wheel back on. Most bicyclists have been made stupid and dumb from this dumb fork tab feature. They no longer know how to correctly remove a front wheel on a bicycle.

+1 Laywer lips is an incredible stupid safety feature. Every time you take out your frontwheel creates a safety hazard.

An inconvenience, yes, but I don't think they're a safety hazard.

Not a huge hazard, but I think the hazard is there. Lawyer lips exist
specifically for the benefit of people who don't know how to adjust and
operate a quick release. But they force those people to re-adjust the
quick release every time they use it! That's just weird.

Admittedly, I haven't tried riding with a wheel loosely held in just by
the lawyer lips, so I don't know how much stability is lost. But to me,
it seems like a bad solution.

I did, for a short distance. I apparently didn't close the quick
release or somehow knocked it open and started out. We have speed
humps in the housing area and when I went over one I thought the bike
felt funny so stopped and checked and Lo! The quick release was loose.
The wheel didn't fall out, but I should point out that happened once
in maybe 20 years :-)

I think of it as perhaps the first "racing bike" feature that marketing
trickled down from enthusiasts to JRA folks, for no real practical reason.

On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 18:04:56 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Monday, 21 October 2019 20:54:11 UTC-4, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 07:47:05 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Monday, 21 October 2019 10:41:09 UTC-4, wrote:
On Thursday, October 17, 2019 at 12:22:06 AM UTC+2, wrote:
On Wednesday, October 16, 2019 at 3:12:32 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, October 16, 2019 at 11:59:37 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
Everyone always grinds lawyer's lips off as a first order of maintenance.

Really? On CF forks? Not me.

-- Jay Beattie.

As much as it pains me, I'll sort of agree with Tom on this. On all but one of my bikes I have ground off the tabs on the fork ends. The only fork I did not grind off is a carbon fork with an aero blade so the fork end is about 2 inches long. Can't grind that much metal off. All my carbon forks have aluminum dropouts, not carbon dropouts. So grinding is safe.

Even on carbon dropouts I grind off the laywer lips. On my CF bikes it is just a little carbon blob. Grinding, actually filling, off that little blob doesn't compromize the strength of your fork. It is as save as shorten your CF steerer tube or MTB handlebar. There is no load on that part.



Which brings up an irritation. With no fork tabs, you do not have to unscrew the dropout nut. Just flip the lever and the wheel falls out and goes back in perfectly. But sometimes when getting rides from friends, they will take the front wheel off my bike to put it on a rack. And when they take the front wheel off, the very first thing they do is start unscrewing the quick release nut. Which messes up my quick release width and I have to then readjust the dang thing when putting the wheel back on. Most bicyclists have been made stupid and dumb from this dumb fork tab feature. They no longer know how to correctly remove a front wheel on a bicycle.

+1 Laywer lips is an incredible stupid safety feature. Every time you take out your frontwheel creates a safety hazard.

Lou

Lawyer Lips almost defeat the purpose of having a quick release.

Cheers

Really? I can't say that I have any problems removing a wheel, with a
quick release, from a fork with lawyer's lips.
--
cheers,

John B.

You have to turn the quick release lever to open the thing enough to get past those lawyer lips. Without the lawyer lips you just need to open the quick release to drop out the wheel.

Cheers

True, but trying to wiggle the wheel up under the fender or get both
ends of the axle in the slot while holding the rear derailer so the
chain is loose I almost always end up winding the quick release almost
off, lips or no lips :-(
--
cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 18:07:45 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Monday, 21 October 2019 21:04:06 UTC-4, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 12:31:52 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 10/21/2019 11:34 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 7:47:07 AM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, 21 October 2019 10:41:09 UTC-4, wrote:
On Thursday, October 17, 2019 at 12:22:06 AM UTC+2, wrote:
On Wednesday, October 16, 2019 at 3:12:32 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, October 16, 2019 at 11:59:37 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
Everyone always grinds lawyer's lips off as a first order of maintenance.

Really? On CF forks? Not me.

-- Jay Beattie.

As much as it pains me, I'll sort of agree with Tom on this. On all but one of my bikes I have ground off the tabs on the fork ends. The only fork I did not grind off is a carbon fork with an aero blade so the fork end is about 2 inches long. Can't grind that much metal off. All my carbon forks have aluminum dropouts, not carbon dropouts. So grinding is safe.

Even on carbon dropouts I grind off the laywer lips. On my CF bikes it is just a little carbon blob. Grinding, actually filling, off that little blob doesn't compromize the strength of your fork. It is as save as shorten your CF steerer tube or MTB handlebar. There is no load on that part.



Which brings up an irritation. With no fork tabs, you do not have to unscrew the dropout nut. Just flip the lever and the wheel falls out and goes back in perfectly. But sometimes when getting rides from friends, they will take the front wheel off my bike to put it on a rack. And when they take the front wheel off, the very first thing they do is start unscrewing the quick release nut. Which messes up my quick release width and I have to then readjust the dang thing when putting the wheel back on. Most bicyclists have been made stupid and dumb from this dumb fork tab feature. They no longer know how to correctly remove a front wheel on a bicycle.

+1 Laywer lips is an incredible stupid safety feature. Every time you take out your frontwheel creates a safety hazard.

An inconvenience, yes, but I don't think they're a safety hazard.

Not a huge hazard, but I think the hazard is there. Lawyer lips exist
specifically for the benefit of people who don't know how to adjust and
operate a quick release. But they force those people to re-adjust the
quick release every time they use it! That's just weird.

Admittedly, I haven't tried riding with a wheel loosely held in just by
the lawyer lips, so I don't know how much stability is lost. But to me,
it seems like a bad solution.

I did, for a short distance. I apparently didn't close the quick
release or somehow knocked it open and started out. We have speed
humps in the housing area and when I went over one I thought the bike
felt funny so stopped and checked and Lo! The quick release was loose.
The wheel didn't fall out, but I should point out that happened once
in maybe 20 years :-)

I think of it as perhaps the first "racing bike" feature that marketing
trickled down from enthusiasts to JRA folks, for no real practical reason.

Naw, if we still used wing nuts people would be hammering them "tight"
and stripping the threads and the wheels would be falling out, perhaps
as often as they do today with quick releases :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

Wasn't it because he couldn't loosen his wingnuts when it was very cold that Tulio invented the quick release?

That's what the story is. I'd probably searched around to find a rock
and hammered the nut loose, flipped the wheel and gone on about my
business instead of starting a million dollar business :-(
--
cheers,

John B.