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"Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments
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"Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments
"Bob Martin" a écrit dans le message de news: ... in 523429 20060816 222509 "Tom Kunich" cyclintom@yahoo. com wrote: This is the class system that people in the United States are decrying. Moreover, EVERY person in the USA can move up to the limits of their ability if they wish. In Europe that simply isn't the case as you can discover simply by talking to any factory worker. ********, Tom (as usual). Both Margaret Thatcher and John Major came from humble beginnings. The majority of Britain's wealthy people are "self-made". It is possible Sarkozy to became the next French President. He is nothing but a son of an immigrant .... Just for the fun, this is a short list of immigrant's sons in France (in the Show Business for example) : Jean-Paul Belmondo (Italian fathers) Isabelle Adjani (algérian father, german mother) Coluche (Italian fathers) Julien Clerc (Mother from the French antilles) Serge Gainsbourg (russian parents) Yves Montand (Italian fathers) Daniel Prévost (algérian khabyle father) Louis de Funès (Spanish parents) Barbara (Central Europe) Charles Aznavour (arménian) Marina Vlady (Russia) Lino Ventura (italien) Sylvie Vartan (arménian and bulgary) Georges Moustaki (grec, born in égypte) Serge Reggiani (italiens fathers) Etc Etc. What is a French if not a mix of poor immigrants ? Btw : I am one of them and I don't remember my Brazilian origin to be a problem in France. |
#23
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"Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments
"Bob Martin" a écrit dans le message de news: ... in 523429 20060816 222509 "Tom Kunich" cyclintom@yahoo. com wrote: This is the class system that people in the United States are decrying. Moreover, EVERY person in the USA can move up to the limits of their ability if they wish. In Europe that simply isn't the case as you can discover simply by talking to any factory worker. ********, Tom (as usual). Both Margaret Thatcher and John Major came from humble beginnings. The majority of Britain's wealthy people are "self-made". It is possible Sarkozy to became the next French President. He is nothing but a son of an immigrant .... Just for the fun, this is a short list of immigrant's sons in France (in the Show Business for example) : Jean-Paul Belmondo (Italian fathers) Isabelle Adjani (algérian father, german mother) Coluche (Italian fathers) Julien Clerc (Mother from the French antilles) Serge Gainsbourg (russian parents) Yves Montand (Italian fathers) Daniel Prévost (algérian khabyle father) Louis de Funès (Spanish parents) Barbara (Central Europe) Charles Aznavour (arménian) Marina Vlady (Russia) Lino Ventura (italien) Sylvie Vartan (arménian and bulgary) Georges Moustaki (grec, born in égypte) Serge Reggiani (italiens fathers) Etc Etc. What is a French if not a mix of poor immigrants ? Btw : I am one of them and I don't remember my Brazilian origin to be a problem in France. |
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"Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments
in message , steve
') wrote: Im hoping some of our European friends will comment here. I know the US is famous for class mobility, but I was under the impression that class immobility was a thing of the past even in Europe... especially after the two world wars shook up the social structure. Bob obviously disagrees..and he's been there, which gives him a big advantage over me (a "dumbass", no doubt). What do our European friends think? Rigid class structure and social pressure to stay put? Or is social mobility now the norm? It depends what you mean by social mobility, but no, in Europe (like the US) there is little real class mobility. Old money is old money the world over, and people with old money stick together. They went to the 'right' schools and the 'right' universities, have the 'right' contacts and relations, marry the 'right' people. In Europe this universal truth is slightly gilded by titles which the powerful have, over the centuries, given themselves, but it doesn't really make any difference. You ain't goin' to marry a Rockefeller, and if you go to court against a Rockefeller, you're going to lose. The fact that he doesn't call himself 'Lord Rockefeller' is immaterial. -- (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/ ;; ... exposing the violence incoherent in the system... |
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"Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments
in message .com,
') wrote: Here's a recent article that suggests Brits define class more by birth than by income: http://www.economist.com/world/brita...ory_id=7289005 My partner still defiantly insists she's working class. By any normal definition of working class, she definitely isn't now, although she was admittedly born into a classic 'working class' family. By contrast, my father was a 'mandarin' - one of Britain's top civil servants, so I was definitely born near the top of middle class. But wait for it... My father's father was a sharecropper who went bust in Texas in the 1890s, and ended up scraping a living farming a mosquito-infested swamp close to the Saskatchewan/North Dakota border. My father's mother left him there and returned to England where she made a very marginal living as a washerwoman. My father, however, did well at grammar school, and got a public scholarship to Cambridge University which was sufficiently generous that it paid for a servant (no, really; I think the servant may have worked for three of four undergraduates, not just my father, but still). Having got a double first from Cambridge, after service in the army during the war he then sat the Civil Service exam and, passing that, immediately went into the upper reaches of the civil service where he spent the rest of his career. The membrane between the middle and the working classes always has been extremely permeable, in both directions, at least in Britain. Many British institutions, but particularly the civil service (and, in the old days, the imperial service) have always been highly meritocratic. The barrier between the aristocracy and the rest, however, is different. To get into the aristocracy, you father and grandfather have to have been extremely rich and powerful. Getting out of the aristocracy is even more difficult, since just going broke isn't normally sufficient - you've still got the extended family and contacts which drag you back to privilege. Me? I'm a working sorceror. I study occult learning in weighty grimoires, and by arcane spells and incantations conjure powerful daemons at vast distance to do my will (don't you?). What does this make me? I am, essentially, an artisan. I'm an artisan in a trade which is currently highly valued, and consequently I earn somewhat more than a mason or a joiner, but... essentially, I make things. Does that make me 'working class' or 'middle class'? And does anyone (apart from my partner) really care any more? -- (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/ Ring of great evil Small one casts it into flame Bringing rise of Men ;; gonzoron |
#26
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"Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments
What is a French if not a mix of poor immigrants ? Btw : I am one of them and I don't remember my Brazilian origin to be a problem in France. France shortened all their upper class many years ago. Now their issues are not determined by birth, but by the real deal. |
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"Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments
Does that make me 'working class' or 'middle class'? And does anyone (apart from my partner) really care any more? -- (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/ Ring of great evil Small one casts it into flame Bringing rise of Men ;; gonzoron Probably means that you family income allows you to do stuff that you would otherwise starve doing. Do you camp out at Glastonbury, or stay at a B & B? |
#28
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"Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments
"mal" wrote in message . .. What is a French if not a mix of poor immigrants ? Btw : I am one of them and I don't remember my Brazilian origin to be a problem in France. France shortened all their upper class many years ago. Now their issues are not determined by birth, but by the real deal. Clear as a picture. |
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"Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments
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"Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments
On 16-Aug-2006, smacked up and reeling, Gabe Brovedani
blindly formulated the following incoherence: Of course, one can read more widely and get closer to the truth. The recent Economist article has already been cited. Here are others: http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0127/p21s01-coop.html A distinction should be made between the ability and opportunity for one to ascend socially/economically and the actual practice of doing so. If one is content to suck the public teat, make no effort, and gain no ground...well that is certainly a failure of govt policy and personal initiative, but not necessarily one of economic and class structure. The CSM article doesnt draw this distinction. I cant say how Europe compares to the US (other than to repeat some opinions I've heard from the Europeans Ive talked to on the subject...all agreeing that the US offers more opportunity) but it is clear (to anyone with eyes) that virtually anyone who is willing to work hard can get ahead here in the US. Perhaps unfortunately, even those who are unwilling to work can do quite well, and that, I believe, is a big reason why so many do not work to get ahead. That is not to say that there arent unfortunates who are worthy of charitable assistance, but that the institutionalization of assistance has created a perverse economic disincentive for a large underclass. It's shameful. steve -- "The accused will now make a bogus statement." James Joyce |
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