Phone orders to Harris - A cautionary Tale

On 26 Jul 2005 09:39:09 -0700, wrote:



I admire your diligence, but why, after the 5th time didn't you say
screw it, if they can't answer the phone, they don't deserve my
business. I know we all want to reward Sheldon for all his good work,
but that seems a bit extreme.

I had already emailed and only needed to supply the numbers. The parts
were in and I wanted to get the order going. It wasn't like I sat by
the phone. I would try,in the morning and then whenever I walked in
the kitchen, I'd hit redial.

If you can tell me where else I can get a 9-speed compatible 28t cog,
I might have ordered elsewhere.

I had asked them to call me, but it wasn't happening.

No one was more surprised than me, when I saw the amount of calls. It
won't happen again. But I won't send my credit card numbers over
email, for whoever suggested that.


Life is Good!
Jeff

On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 23:57:32 GMT, Jeff Starr
wrote:


No one was more surprised than me, when I saw the amount of calls. It
won't happen again. But I won't send my credit card numbers over
email, for whoever suggested that.

Your credit card number is massively more at risk from large-scale
theft where hackers or thieves getting an online database of hundreds
or thousands of numbers. The likelihood of someone looking at
individual emails to get numbers is remote at best -- it's simply not
an effective approach for the criminal. And if you split the info
over two emails sent separately the chance of theft is even more
remote. You're probably more likely to have someone steal your number
from printed receipt a store or you neglect to destroy.

JT

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Jeff Starr wrote:

I should mention, that this is where the caution comes in, it is not a
toll free number. It turns out the long distance carrier that I was
using, was billing a minute per call, with a connection fee, total
cost per call $.64. It added up to over $34 plus tax.

It Turns Out?!?!

Did you not, in the year 2005, feasting the fruits of over a century of
telephony, crushed in the perfumed bosom of the Information Age, not
fully comprehend what constitutes a "completed call"?


***DUH***

Christ on a crutch.

..max
subject line neutered.

"Jasper Janssen" wrote: (clip) Or just send the credit card details over
email, it's not *that* insecure.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I use what I call "poor man's encryption." I send the first 12 digits of my
CC# in an e-mail. Later, I send the last 12 digits in another e-mail. The
seller merges the two pieces, using the overlapping part to give him
confidence that he got it right. The chances that some third party would
intercept both e-mails are vanishingly small.

In article ,
"Lee" lee_AT_SHOES_wheelman_DOT_com wrote:

My favorite, tho, is stopping by and schmoozing with Art or one of the mail
order guys. When I ask a tough question, they go into the back room, huddle
for a while, and then come out with The Answer. And usually a part number.

hey, YOU'RE the reason they're not answering the phone! get him, fellas!

Jeff Starr wrote:
I needed to call Harris to supply my CC #, so that my order could be
completed.

Well, between 6-15-05 and 6-23-05, I tried 54 times. Each time getting
their recorded message, that they were helping other customers. Well,
I finally got through on the 55th attempt, only to find out they had
been short handed and not answering that line.


I had the same experience. Not up to 50+ calls.

Really sounds like poor customer relatonships......

Really poor.

I now will only consider Harris if they are selling something that no
one else seems to have.

Just too poor customer relationships.

The insulting message is said so fast that you have difficulty in
getting the email address correct.

There is a deep insensitivity to customers here.

There is no excuse for it.

I would CC Harris on this, but I don't remember the email and am
"INVOLVED WITH OTHER THINGS" and won't look it up.

can you come to grips with the idea, the people are on the other end of
the phone are stupid?
if you stop dealing with stupid people you'll starve to death

jbuch wrote:
Jeff Starr wrote:

I needed to call Harris to supply my CC #, so that my order could be
completed.

Well, between 6-15-05 and 6-23-05, I tried 54 times. Each time getting
their recorded message, that they were helping other customers. Well,
I finally got through on the 55th attempt, only to find out they had
been short handed and not answering that line.

jbuch wrote:

I had the same experience. Not up to 50+ calls.

Really sounds like poor customer relatonships......

Really poor.

I now will only consider Harris if they are selling something that no
one else seems to have.

Just too poor customer relationships.

The insulting message is said so fast that you have difficulty in
getting the email address correct.

There is a deep insensitivity to customers here.

Very sorry you've had problems. We're a very small shop, but growing
rapidly, and suffering "growing pains" as a result.

I haven't heard the 'phone message involved, but I will look into this
and see what can be done to make the situation clearer.

During the busy season, we are best able to fill orders placed via our
secure Web-based shopping cart system. Second easiest is email orders,
but there are security issues with that.* Phone orders are much more
difficult for us to deal with when things are busy.

Here in the Northeast, the bike business is rather seasonal. Everybody
bike business has to choose between two unpleasant alternatives:

A. Thin out the payroll in the wintertime, then bring in untrained new
hires for the spring/summer rush season. This makes it
difficult/impossible to retain good, competent people.

2. Keep a full-time workforce which will tend to be stretched pretty
thin during the high season. This approach does permit retaining good
folks.

Every northern bike business has to use some combination of these
strategies. We are fortunate that the Internet business helps to even
things out, because the Internet side doesn't die out as badly in the
winter as the local business does.

When things get really busy, we have to cut back somewhere, and the most
time intensive aspect is taking phone orders. In the time it takes to
field a phone call, one of our folks can often fill 3 or 4 Internet orders.

The folks in the Internet department know a lot about bikes, and a lot
about parts. They work hard and pretty efficiently by and large, but
none of them is a good typist. When they handle phone orders, they
generally are reduced to writing down the details on a slip of paper,
then later transferring the data by hunt-and-peck to the computer
system. In addition to being slow and inefficient, this is error prone.

We consider filling actual orders that we have received to be a higher
priority than taking new orders that we may not have time to fill in a
timely fashion.

We're working on upgrading our software and inventory control system to
get around this, but it's very difficult for a small company that has
such an unusually large selection of SKUs to deal with.

We're really just a little neighborhood bike shop that has gradually
been oozing into the Internet/mail order business.

Our business has been built on customer service, and we endeavor to
maintain this tradition, but a growing business can't always keep up
with everything.

*
If you can't use the secure shopping cart and want to order by email, a
few simple precautions can increase the security of sending your credit
card. I often do this myself in placing email orders from suppliers.

•Don't use keywords like "Visa","Mastercard" or even "card" or "credit"
or "expiration." You don't need to say what kind of card it is, that
information is revealed by the first digit of the number.

•I sometimes substute the letter "o" for the digit "0"

It is my impression that these precautions will make your email pretty
much safe from snoopers. I believe they look for keywords and possibly
for characteristic groupings of digits as in "#### #### #### #### ##/##"

Sheldon "We Try" Brown
+-------------------------------------------------------+
| Do what you can, with what you have, where you are. |
| --Theodore Roosevelt |
+-------------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

"Sheldon Brown" wrote in message
...
jbuch wrote:
Jeff Starr wrote:

I needed to call Harris to supply my CC #, so that my order
could be
completed.

Well, between 6-15-05 and 6-23-05, I tried 54 times. Each time
getting
their recorded message, that they were helping other
customers. Well,
I finally got through on the 55th attempt, only to find out
they had
been short handed and not answering that line.

jbuch wrote:

I had the same experience. Not up to 50+ calls.

Really sounds like poor customer relatonships......

Really poor.

I now will only consider Harris if they are selling something
that no
one else seems to have.

Just too poor customer relationships.

The insulting message is said so fast that you have difficulty
in
getting the email address correct.

There is a deep insensitivity to customers here.

Very sorry you've had problems. We're a very small shop, but
growing
rapidly, and suffering "growing pains" as a result.

I haven't heard the 'phone message involved, but I will look into
this
and see what can be done to make the situation clearer.

During the busy season, we are best able to fill orders placed
via our
secure Web-based shopping cart system. Second easiest is email
orders,
but there are security issues with that.* Phone orders are much
more
difficult for us to deal with when things are busy.

Here in the Northeast, the bike business is rather seasonal.
Everybody
bike business has to choose between two unpleasant alternatives:

A. Thin out the payroll in the wintertime, then bring in
untrained new
hires for the spring/summer rush season. This makes it
difficult/impossible to retain good, competent people.

2. Keep a full-time workforce which will tend to be stretched
pretty
thin during the high season. This approach does permit retaining
good
folks.

Every northern bike business has to use some combination of these
strategies. We are fortunate that the Internet business helps to
even
things out, because the Internet side doesn't die out as badly in
the
winter as the local business does.

When things get really busy, we have to cut back somewhere, and
the most
time intensive aspect is taking phone orders. In the time it
takes to
field a phone call, one of our folks can often fill 3 or 4
Internet orders.

The folks in the Internet department know a lot about bikes, and
a lot
about parts. They work hard and pretty efficiently by and large,
but
none of them is a good typist. When they handle phone orders,
they
generally are reduced to writing down the details on a slip of
paper,
then later transferring the data by hunt-and-peck to the computer
system. In addition to being slow and inefficient, this is error
prone.

We consider filling actual orders that we have received to be a
higher
priority than taking new orders that we may not have time to fill
in a
timely fashion.

We're working on upgrading our software and inventory control
system to
get around this, but it's very difficult for a small company that
has
such an unusually large selection of SKUs to deal with.

We're really just a little neighborhood bike shop that has
gradually
been oozing into the Internet/mail order business.

Our business has been built on customer service, and we endeavor
to
maintain this tradition, but a growing business can't always keep
up
with everything.

*
If you can't use the secure shopping cart and want to order by
email, a
few simple precautions can increase the security of sending your
credit
card. I often do this myself in placing email orders from
suppliers.

•Don't use keywords like "Visa","Mastercard" or even "card" or
"credit"
or "expiration." You don't need to say what kind of card it is,
that
information is revealed by the first digit of the number.

•I sometimes substute the letter "o" for the digit "0"

It is my impression that these precautions will make your email
pretty
much safe from snoopers. I believe they look for keywords and
possibly
for characteristic groupings of digits as in "#### #### #### ####
##/##"


You need to outsource your customer service to New Delhi. I
works for Dell, sort of. -- Jay Beattie.

Jeff Starr wrote:
I needed to call Harris to supply my CC #, so that my order could be
completed.

I've ordered from Harris using their secure server. Was the item not on
their web site.

In any case, it's fine to send a cc# via e-mail. Split it into three
e-mails, two, each with 1/2 the digits, and one with the expiration
date. But the reality is that you're far more at risk from other types
of credit card fraud than the chance of someone intercepting an e-mail
with a CC#.

Some credit card companies allow the generation of single use credit
card numbers for a specific amount or a specific limit, see
"http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/internetprivacy/2004-05-10-single-use-credit_x.htm"

Harris is a valuable source of parts that cannot be found anywhere else
in the U.S.., so working around this issue is prudent.