Ran over my first "cyclist" today.

Hi all. I thought I'd share my bad luck today.

I was going to pick up my daughter, so I was pulling the empty trailer with
my newly rebuilt kid-hauler. I passed by the local middle school then
crossed the main collector street over to the next neighborhood. Ahead was a
small group of kids (8 to 10 of them, all between 12 and 14 yrs old). The
road at this point was four lanes with a center median. Most of the kids
were walking in the street in the right-hand lane, but two were riding
freestyle BMX bikes. One kid was yelling "Race Him!" The kid who wanted to
race was setting up in the left-hand lane to take off as I passed. I had
slowed to a crawl and moved into the left-hand lane to go around the other
kids.

One of the pedestrians kept moving closer, so my attention was split between
him and my "challenger." But the challenger decided not to race - instead he
stepped into the street in front of me singing a little song and doing a
little dance. He apparently didn't estimate my speed because he wasn't
getting out of the way. I was torn between squeezing the brakes harder to
stop or preparing for the impact. I let go of the front brake to push the
kid out of the way with my left hand. As I moved him, he tripped over his
bike and fell to the ground. His left cheek hit the curb, but not hard
enough to cause anything more than a red mark. No bruising to be seen.

Most of the kids scattered. I rolled past, then turned around to see if he
was ok. Other people stopped to make sure he was ok. For those who remember
my incident with a vehicle a few years back, the best thing I learned was to
call the police and get a report. The last thing I wanted was some vigilante
parent looking to run over me. So, I called the police with my cell phone.
The kid decided that he didn't want any trouble and started running down the
street. It was quite a sight to see - a couple of kids running with a guy on
a bike pulling a trailer while talking to a dispatcher on the cell phone
right behind them. I finally convinced him that he couldn't outrun me and
the cops were coming anyway, so he should just sit down.

Eventually they came - his mom, one of the other kids' mom, and the police.
The "witness'" mom knew right away what was up and immediately started
chewing out her son for playing in the street again. She actually apologized
to me and wished me luck with the other mom. I soon found out why. The kid
started lying to his mom about how he had crashed his bike and was "just
dusting off" when I rode over and pushed him down. The mom wasn't sure who
was telling the truth, but thought that if I were riding around bullying
children that I should be arrested. Yeah, a guy on a 20 year old road bike
pulling a child's trailer wearing full cycling gear (minus the clipless
shoes) is riding around looking for kids in the passing lane to knock down.

I'm glad the officer didn't believe it either. But I do wonder how that kid
is going to turn out. He was laughing in the car as they pulled away. I will
teach my kids better.

One good thing did come of all this. While waiting for the police, the
remaining kids were taking turns riding the two BMX bikes. One kid kept
telling the others to watch out because he didn't have any brakes. He was
smart enough to let me show him how to adjust his brakes properly. At least
he can stop now. And maybe one mom will take the time to teach her kid how
to ride properly.

Alright, ranting is over. I just hope things go a little more smoothly
tomorrow as I pass that way.

-Buck

"Buck" j u n k m a i l @ g a l a x y c o r p . c o m wrote in message
.. .
But the challenger decided not to race - instead he
stepped into the street in front of me singing a little song and doing a
little dance. He apparently didn't estimate my speed because he wasn't
getting out of the way. I was torn between squeezing the brakes harder to
stop or preparing for the impact. I let go of the front brake to push the
kid out of the way with my left hand. As I moved him, he tripped over his
bike and fell to the ground. His left cheek hit the curb, but not hard
enough to cause anything more than a red mark. No bruising to be seen.

Nevertheless you hit a pedestrian when you could have stopped and not hit
him. And a kid. As you describe them, your actions are indefensible, IMO.

It's never OK to deliberately hit a ped. It doesn't matter what they're
doing, or how obnoxiously they're behaving. You're the vehicle. They're the
pedestrian. Not hitting the ped is your responsibility.

RichC

"Rich Clark" wrote in message
...

Nevertheless you hit a pedestrian when you could have stopped and not hit
him. And a kid. As you describe them, your actions are indefensible, IMO.

It's never OK to deliberately hit a ped. It doesn't matter what they're
doing, or how obnoxiously they're behaving. You're the vehicle. They're
the
pedestrian. Not hitting the ped is your responsibility.

I didn't deliberately hit a pedestrian. I ask you which is worse, the impact
of a bicycle with a 200lb rider follwed by a trailer or a hand that pushes
you out of the way? If the kid had stayed to the left instead of
deliberately stepping in front of me to taunt me with his "football dance"
(his words, not mine), I would have rolled on by at a slow pace. As it was,
I was on the brakes, trying to stop when he stepped out. I wasn't sure I
could come to a complete stop. So it was a choice - try squeezing the brakes
harder and possibly stop (or possibly not stop and hit him with the bike,
putting me at risk as well), or move a 14 yr old kid out of the road with my
left hand.

Perhaps a second-by-second recounting of all the events would have made my
position clearer. Even the kid recognized his responsibility in the matter
(although he lied to both his mother and the police officer about it later).
He wanted to drop the whole matter and just go home. I had to follow him
over four blocks before I convinced him that he should just sit down and let
the officer work it out. My reasons for this were two-fold: first to have an
official record so that no one could make a claim against me later (or
decide to run me down with their car); second, to let the officer talk to
the kid and convince him that it was a bad idea to be pulling this kind of
crap.

My posting it here was partly to vent, partly to discuss the matter. While
there have been a few threads on the rights and responsibilities of both
pedestrians and cyclists, this one is a bit different than the usual. These
kids were not in a crosswalk and were certainly taunting traffic. They were
treating a main collector road as a playground, even after the incident. You
should also know that the speed limit there is 35mph. If they were acting
like responsible pedestrians, they would have been on the sidewalk (which
brings up another of this kid's lies - he originally told his mother that he
was on the sidewalk when this happened) or crossing the street at an
intersection (we were in the middle of the block).

I recognize that I could have avoided the situation altogether by stopping
well before I reached them. But I felt the least risky move was to go around
them in the left lane. I certainly didn't want to be stopped in the middle
of the street. People often zoom through the yellow light at the nearby
intersection at speeds much higher than the posted limit. It was a bad thing
all around. I hope that my kids don't behave in such a way when I'm not
around. I see this as part of the problem with latchkey kids. Their parents
rarely recognize what the kids are really up to and are always quick to jump
to their defense.

Now if this had been a multi-use path and the kid was actually some
dog-walking moron wandering all over the path, would you feel the same way?

-Buck

Rich Clark wrote:

: Nevertheless you hit a pedestrian when you could have stopped and not hit
: him. And a kid. As you describe them, your actions are indefensible, IMO.

I'd love to see the road rules that state one must stop in all perceived
danger situations. Stopping is only one option drawn from the accident
avoidence set; veering is another, throwing yourself and the bike on the
road is also one; pushing a pedestrian out of the way is one I'd never
considered but to some extent it worked for the cyclist in this case.
That the kid fell over their bike was a miscalculation that is just as
likely in any action made on short notice.

There is nothing in the OP to indicate that the actions of the cyclist
were premeditated; if anything, the cyclist acted to avoid a collision -
albeit by an unusual method. That is the limit of one's legal and moral
obligation.

It's never OK to hit a pedestrian in any circumstance, but if the pedestrian
disregards opportunities to take responsibilities for their own
safety, then they are behaving recklessly.

The OP explained that cyclist was already proceeding in a precautionary
mode when the kid jumped in front of the bike. Perhaps with a trailer
the bike was incapable of stopping instantly. Who knows?

It seems a reasonable assumption, given the description, that the kid
was set for mayhem. That he was the victim of it is the universe's
way of unfolding the perfect illustration of cause and effect.

Cheerz,
Lynzz

"Lindsay Rowlands" wrote in message
...
It seems a reasonable assumption, given the description, that the kid
was set for mayhem. That he was the victim of it is the universe's
way of unfolding the perfect illustration of cause and effect.

Yes, one could avoid responsibility by pointing to the agency of
the universe, or one could squeeze the brakes and stop the bike
perfectly, at which time one could smile at the antics (mayhem, if
you must) of the child.

M.

Buck wrote:
snip

Eventually they came - his mom, one of the other kids' mom, and the police.
The "witness'" mom knew right away what was up and immediately started
chewing out her son for playing in the street again. She actually apologized
to me and wished me luck with the other mom. I soon found out why. The kid
started lying to his mom about how he had crashed his bike and was "just
dusting off" when I rode over and pushed him down. The mom wasn't sure who
was telling the truth, but thought that if I were riding around bullying
children that I should be arrested. Yeah, a guy on a 20 year old road bike
pulling a child's trailer wearing full cycling gear (minus the clipless
shoes) is riding around looking for kids in the passing lane to knock down.

I'm glad the officer didn't believe it either. But I do wonder how that kid
is going to turn out. He was laughing in the car as they pulled away. I will
teach my kids better.


-Buck



In this part of the world attempting to leave the scene of an accident is an offense as is giving a false statement to a police
officer. Maybe you should get with the officer who took the report and see if you can get him to go by the kid's house and put the
fear of god into him. This kind of behaviour needs to be stopped at as young an age as possible. This comes from personal experience.
I had the local police put the fear of god into my daughter when she was 10. I really straightened her out.

On Fri, 22 Aug 2003 04:59:36 GMT, Michael wrote:
"Lindsay Rowlands" wrote in message
...
It seems a reasonable assumption, given the description, that the kid
was set for mayhem. That he was the victim of it is the universe's
way of unfolding the perfect illustration of cause and effect.

Yes, one could avoid responsibility by pointing to the agency of
the universe, or one could squeeze the brakes and stop the bike
perfectly, at which time one could smile at the antics (mayhem, if
you must) of the child.

What are you smoking?

It's the kid's actions, not those of the OP,
that were the problem. The kid deliberately
put himself in danger; the OP did his best to
reduce that kid's danger.

If the kid had jumped in front of a car, and
the car's brakes were inadequate, would you
feel the same? That the car should have stopped
when the driver saw the kid in the distance?

In your design, how should the OP have proceeded
after stopping way behind the children? Should
he wait for them to get down the street, and
hope that they wouldn't want to go the same
direction as him? If they did, should he seek
an alternate route? What if there were more
children around?

Those children were a road hazard just like
cars, adult pedestrians, slower cyclists, and
potholes. A cyclist will never get anywhere if
he stops for every road hazard he sees.

The kid, on seeing that he would not be able to
match the OP's speed, decided not to race, and
instead, to dance directly in the path of the OP.
That's pretty stupid. If the OP hadn't pushed the
kid with his hand, the full impact of the bike,
not nearly as accurately directed as the hand,
could have caused the kid to be pushed to the
left, into the passing lane, where he could
promptly be run over by a car. It was his choice
to dance in the street in the path of a fast
moving, oncoming vehicle.

Had the kid been struck by the bike and pushed
to the left into the path of an oncoming car as
described above, I'd nominate him for a Darwin
award...

Disclaimer: I don't KNOW that the kid could have
been pushed to the left. I also don't know what
other effects the impact of the bike+trailer+
rider could possibly have had. That was one
example of many possible examples, and there are
certainly examples with worse and better outcomes.

M.
--
Rick Onanian

On Fri, 22 Aug 2003 03:34:48 GMT, "Buck" j u n k m a i l @ g a l a x
y c o r p . c o m wrote:

Perhaps a second-by-second recounting of all the events would have made my
position clearer. Even the kid recognized his responsibility in the matter

Here's a voice from the pool of potential jurors. One which you can
heed or ignore -- and it's pretty clear you'll do the latter.

Bottom line:

The kid was wrong.
You were wrong.
You are supposed to be an adult.

he had stayed to the side instead of dancing in front of me (as we were
: waiting for the cops, he called it his "football dance," but changed his
: mind about what happened when his mom arrived), this wouldn't have
happened.

If he looked as if he were spasming he may have been doing what is called the
"crip walk" and is a gang oriented activity. Since these parents have failed to
teach their kids how to ride safely they have also allowed their kids to
buy/listen to rap music which causes the defiance and lack of responsibility
you described. Keep your cars locked as that bunch will be stealing shortly to
support their gang/drug activities.

Michael wrote:

: "Lindsay Rowlands" wrote in message
: ...
: It seems a reasonable assumption, given the description, that the kid
: was set for mayhem. That he was the victim of it is the universe's
: way of unfolding the perfect illustration of cause and effect.

: Yes, one could avoid responsibility by pointing to the agency of
: the universe, or one could squeeze the brakes and stop the bike
: perfectly, at which time one could smile at the antics (mayhem, if
: you must) of the child.

You seem confused about the concept of responsibility here, but
have it your way if you must Michael. I certainly don't want to
argue with you. I would be satisfied however, if you accept that
things rarely conform to the dichotomies of right/wrong; black/
white; good/bad, etc.

I want to add I preferred to hear the story of a badly misbehaving
youth getting a shake up rather than the tale of a cyclist and
kid being both seriously injured in a collision.

Cheerz,
Lynzz