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#81
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Dropper posts for every bike?
On 12/3/2019 5:54 AM, Duane wrote:
I used DT friction shifters for years. I can’t imagine anyone preferring them over brifters but whatever floats their boat. Like Eddie Merckx said (paraphrasing) it doesn’t matter how long or short you ride. Or how fast or slow. Just ride. I would also add, and STFU criticizing other riders preferences. Oh, good grief! As I've said dozens of times: This is a _discussion_ group. We discuss things. If you're so insecure that you can't tolerate any disagreement with your choices, why would you enter a discussion about your choices? Furthermore, if you pretend instead to defend _others'_ free choices, perhaps you should stop sniping at only those who differ from you. Contrary to certain posters' whining, I don't say "You shouldn't use [whatever] equipment." But I do frequently point out that for much equipment, the near-magical claims are exaggerated, or irrelevant to most people's riding. And I think I have a tendency to quantify things. Quantification shouldn't be sneered at in a "tech" group. -- - Frank Krygowski |
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#82
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Dropper posts for every bike?
On 12/3/2019 11:44 AM, sms wrote:
I remember when "real cyclists" mocked stem-mounted shifters and "safety brake" levers https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51WE-ZXb18L._SL1024_.jpg. I hope you're not defending those "safety" levers. Those were always terrible. (Modern "interrupter" auxiliary levers are a different matter.) The idea that someone should buy a bicycle with drop handlebars than not be riding in the drop position, was an anathema to them. I don't remember that at all. And the photos at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddy_Merckx seem to belie that idea. Brifters were a great invention, far superior to bar-end shifters. Finally you didn't have to move your hand at all to shift. Wowee! But... but... you still tout bottle cages instead of Camelbacks! Get with the program! -- - Frank Krygowski |
#83
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Dropper posts for every bike?
On Tuesday, December 3, 2019 at 8:23:25 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/3/2019 10:18 AM, jbeattie wrote: On Monday, December 2, 2019 at 8:08:25 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 12/2/2019 8:34 PM, jbeattie wrote: On Monday, December 2, 2019 at 3:39:38 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote: On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 09:49:37 -0800 (PST), wrote: On Monday, December 2, 2019 at 1:44:11 AM UTC+1, Duane wrote: wrote: On Sunday, December 1, 2019 at 4:17:23 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 11/30/2019 11:24 PM, wrote: On Wednesday, November 27, 2019 at 10:04:33 AM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote: Should pro road racers use dropper posts? https://www.yahoo.com/sports/worldto...111819293.html If they do, it won't be long before anyone who uses an ordinary seatpost will be scorned as a luddite. -- - Frank Krygowski I believe a dropper seatpost in professional road bicycle racing might be a safety benefit. Currently, racers descending a mountain will frequently put their groin and belly and chest onto the top of the toptube to become as aerodynamic as possible. This is a somewhat/definitely unsafe position to control a bicycle when descending. But with a dropper seatpost, the racer could get himself into the low aerodynamic position, AND remain seated on the saddle. Overall a much safer position to descend a mountain. So a dropper seatpost would be an easy safety enhancement for professional bicyclists. Who would be against increasing the safety aspect of professional bicycle racing? IMO, racers can do whatever is within the rules to win a race. But as I said, it won't be long before anyone who makes a different choice than a racer will be scorned, at least by some. Scorned? Really? Maybe by some idiots, but in general? Over the years, it's happened with lycra clothes, helmets, clipless pedals, 6 then 7 then 8 then 9 then 10 then 11 cogs, index shifting, STI, aero wheels, carbon fiber, aero frames... Not over here. I heard that the US is a ****ed up country but this I can't believe. Lou Seems to me that the scorning comes from the other way around. Just check the recent posts here about Di2. I was flabbergasted too. Is Frank not frequently 'accusing' us of: - being a victim of marketing, - using parts that are unreliable without any experience with them himself, - using equipment with un noticeable advantages/gain according to his standards. - that we are non racers and we don't need any of the new stuff even if we are telling him that it makes our rides more pleasant, - keep bugging us about wearing a helmet, He has to show me one post where I mock about his choice of equipment. I think we are very nice to him. Concerning modern equipment Frank and John B are the Statler and Waldorf of rec.bicycles.tech https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpYEJx7PkWE Lou Are you arguing that you actually "need" electric shifting (for example) in order to ride a bicycle? Or in my recent tirades, the "need" for STI shifting to ride a bicycle? I might comment, that in my usual 2 - 3 hour Sunday ride in Bangkok I might shift 4 to 6 times. On the average that would be one shift every 30 minutes... Do I really "need" electric shifting? Nope, and no one is saying you do. Unlike your weekend ride around Bangkok, I'll shift three times or more just getting out of my parking garage as the driveway progressively steepens to 15% before emerging onto the street, and I'll shift a whole lot more riding home. I'm fine with cable actuated STI, but DT shifting would be a total drag since I often climb out of the saddle, and I hate sitting down and reaching for the next gear. Nobody here is going to tell me DT friction shifting is perfectly fine. Screw that. Nope, and no one is saying you must think that. I've moved on, and that does not make me a faddist, fashionista, pretender or anything else. In fact, the fashionistas are the retrogrouches who must remind everyone that they still use friction shifting or ride a penny farthing or wear tweed or ride an Eroica bike. :-) You've implied an interesting definition: "Fashion (noun) - that which is out of fashion." Lou asked about who was mocking whom. Seems to me you've just mocked the people who dare talk about satisfactorily using older technology. If not, why the word "fashionista"? I am mocking people who make it a point of pride to ride old stuff because it is somehow more authentic and makes them "real cyclists." Read the Eroica coverage -- riding old bikes is all part of the epic struggle to cover the mileage, and it gets the riders closer to the true cycling experience, etc., etc. https://pelotonmagazine.com/features/my-leroica-ride/ Really? Screw that. I'd rather have the untrue experience of riding a gravel bike with appropriate tires and suitable gears, including shifting that allows me to keep my hands on the bars as I bounce down the trail. Well, that mindset exists in other realms. There are hunters who eschew guns, and try to take deer using bow and arrow. (That movement initiated mostly just for the challenge, and there was quite a battle before it was made legal.) There are folks who ski not by using chairlifts, but by grunting along under their own power. Some of those people still slather carefully chosen wax compounds on the bottom of their skis, changing them each time conditions change. Can you imagine? CX or AT skiing is a different sport than straight alpine skiing -- and AT and CX skis can be highly technical. AT skis, for example, are built for light weight, climbing speed and are used with skins that can also be very technical. https://www.switchbacktravel.com/best-backcountry-skis Not to mention that AT takes a lot more equipment, including beacons, probes, etc. These are not olde tymers recreating the past. The skiing equivalent to retro bikes would be resort skiing on edgeless wood skis with leather boots and cable bindings. The actual real-life equivalent are the guys who want to yak at me on the lift about their 210cm Olin skis with 50mm waists and their first generation Look bindings and the best-ever Raichle rear-entry boots. They complain about wider, shaped skis as being "cheating." Okey-dokey. You go guy, and I love your bell bottom snow suit! -- Jay Beattie. |
#84
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Dropper posts for every bike?
On 12/3/2019 9:38 AM, jbeattie wrote:
snip The skiing equivalent to retro bikes would be resort skiing on edgeless wood skis with leather boots and cable bindings. The actual real-life equivalent are the guys who want to yak at me on the lift about their 210cm Olin skis with 50mm waists and their first generation Look bindings and the best-ever Raichle rear-entry boots. They complain about wider, shaped skis as being "cheating." Okey-dokey. You go guy, and I love your bell bottom snow suit! LOL, I have some telemark skis with cable bindings. But they do have steel edges. I still use them occasionally when my wife wants to go downhill skiing and I tag along. Always gets some comments. One woman runs a telemark and back-country ski school founded by her and her late husband http://www.alpineskills.com/index.html saw me using them at Sugar Bowl and commented that when they moved to the newer back country equipment that they couldn't even give away their old equipment. |
#85
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Dropper posts for every bike?
On 12/3/2019 12:38 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, December 3, 2019 at 8:23:25 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 12/3/2019 10:18 AM, jbeattie wrote: On Monday, December 2, 2019 at 8:08:25 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 12/2/2019 8:34 PM, jbeattie wrote: On Monday, December 2, 2019 at 3:39:38 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote: On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 09:49:37 -0800 (PST), wrote: On Monday, December 2, 2019 at 1:44:11 AM UTC+1, Duane wrote: wrote: On Sunday, December 1, 2019 at 4:17:23 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 11/30/2019 11:24 PM, wrote: On Wednesday, November 27, 2019 at 10:04:33 AM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote: Should pro road racers use dropper posts? https://www.yahoo.com/sports/worldto...111819293.html If they do, it won't be long before anyone who uses an ordinary seatpost will be scorned as a luddite. -- - Frank Krygowski I believe a dropper seatpost in professional road bicycle racing might be a safety benefit. Currently, racers descending a mountain will frequently put their groin and belly and chest onto the top of the toptube to become as aerodynamic as possible. This is a somewhat/definitely unsafe position to control a bicycle when descending. But with a dropper seatpost, the racer could get himself into the low aerodynamic position, AND remain seated on the saddle. Overall a much safer position to descend a mountain. So a dropper seatpost would be an easy safety enhancement for professional bicyclists. Who would be against increasing the safety aspect of professional bicycle racing? IMO, racers can do whatever is within the rules to win a race. But as I said, it won't be long before anyone who makes a different choice than a racer will be scorned, at least by some. Scorned? Really? Maybe by some idiots, but in general? Over the years, it's happened with lycra clothes, helmets, clipless pedals, 6 then 7 then 8 then 9 then 10 then 11 cogs, index shifting, STI, aero wheels, carbon fiber, aero frames... Not over here. I heard that the US is a ****ed up country but this I can't believe. Lou Seems to me that the scorning comes from the other way around. Just check the recent posts here about Di2. I was flabbergasted too. Is Frank not frequently 'accusing' us of: - being a victim of marketing, - using parts that are unreliable without any experience with them himself, - using equipment with un noticeable advantages/gain according to his standards. - that we are non racers and we don't need any of the new stuff even if we are telling him that it makes our rides more pleasant, - keep bugging us about wearing a helmet, He has to show me one post where I mock about his choice of equipment. I think we are very nice to him. Concerning modern equipment Frank and John B are the Statler and Waldorf of rec.bicycles.tech https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpYEJx7PkWE Lou Are you arguing that you actually "need" electric shifting (for example) in order to ride a bicycle? Or in my recent tirades, the "need" for STI shifting to ride a bicycle? I might comment, that in my usual 2 - 3 hour Sunday ride in Bangkok I might shift 4 to 6 times. On the average that would be one shift every 30 minutes... Do I really "need" electric shifting? Nope, and no one is saying you do. Unlike your weekend ride around Bangkok, I'll shift three times or more just getting out of my parking garage as the driveway progressively steepens to 15% before emerging onto the street, and I'll shift a whole lot more riding home. I'm fine with cable actuated STI, but DT shifting would be a total drag since I often climb out of the saddle, and I hate sitting down and reaching for the next gear. Nobody here is going to tell me DT friction shifting is perfectly fine. Screw that. Nope, and no one is saying you must think that. I've moved on, and that does not make me a faddist, fashionista, pretender or anything else. In fact, the fashionistas are the retrogrouches who must remind everyone that they still use friction shifting or ride a penny farthing or wear tweed or ride an Eroica bike. :-) You've implied an interesting definition: "Fashion (noun) - that which is out of fashion." Lou asked about who was mocking whom. Seems to me you've just mocked the people who dare talk about satisfactorily using older technology. If not, why the word "fashionista"? I am mocking people who make it a point of pride to ride old stuff because it is somehow more authentic and makes them "real cyclists." Read the Eroica coverage -- riding old bikes is all part of the epic struggle to cover the mileage, and it gets the riders closer to the true cycling experience, etc., etc. https://pelotonmagazine.com/features/my-leroica-ride/ Really? Screw that. I'd rather have the untrue experience of riding a gravel bike with appropriate tires and suitable gears, including shifting that allows me to keep my hands on the bars as I bounce down the trail. Well, that mindset exists in other realms. There are hunters who eschew guns, and try to take deer using bow and arrow. (That movement initiated mostly just for the challenge, and there was quite a battle before it was made legal.) There are folks who ski not by using chairlifts, but by grunting along under their own power. Some of those people still slather carefully chosen wax compounds on the bottom of their skis, changing them each time conditions change. Can you imagine? CX or AT skiing is a different sport than straight alpine skiing -- and AT and CX skis can be highly technical. AT skis, for example, are built for light weight, climbing speed and are used with skins that can also be very technical. https://www.switchbacktravel.com/best-backcountry-skis Not to mention that AT takes a lot more equipment, including beacons, probes, etc. These are not olde tymers recreating the past. The skiing equivalent to retro bikes would be resort skiing on edgeless wood skis with leather boots and cable bindings. The actual real-life equivalent are the guys who want to yak at me on the lift about their 210cm Olin skis with 50mm waists and their first generation Look bindings and the best-ever Raichle rear-entry boots. They complain about wider, shaped skis as being "cheating." Okey-dokey. You go guy, and I love your bell bottom snow suit! -- Jay Beattie. Well I still sort of my my Rosi Slaloms at the end of the day when my quads are burning from turning these new parabolics. So I don't think your analogy is actually correct. I miss nothing of the DT shifters or toe straps today. |
#86
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Dropper posts for every bike?
On Tuesday, December 3, 2019 at 6:14:34 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/3/2019 5:54 AM, Duane wrote: I used DT friction shifters for years. I can’t imagine anyone preferring them over brifters but whatever floats their boat. Like Eddie Merckx said (paraphrasing) it doesn’t matter how long or short you ride. Or how fast or slow. Just ride. I would also add, and STFU criticizing other riders preferences. Oh, good grief! As I've said dozens of times: This is a _discussion_ group. We discuss things. If you're so insecure that you can't tolerate any disagreement with your choices, why would you enter a discussion about your choices? Furthermore, if you pretend instead to defend _others'_ free choices, perhaps you should stop sniping at only those who differ from you. Contrary to certain posters' whining, I don't say "You shouldn't use [whatever] equipment." But I do frequently point out that for much equipment, the near-magical claims are exaggerated, or irrelevant to most people's riding. And I think I have a tendency to quantify things. Quantification shouldn't be sneered at in a "tech" group. -- - Frank Krygowski Wow, wow. Frank you started this thread. Read your first post. What was your intention when you wrote 'If they do, it won't be long before anyone who uses an ordinary seatpost will be scorned as a luddite. '? Trying to be funny? What did you quantify? In my world it is a silly insinuation. Lou |
#87
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Dropper posts for every bike?
On Tue, 3 Dec 2019 09:38:21 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote: On Tuesday, December 3, 2019 at 8:23:25 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 12/3/2019 10:18 AM, jbeattie wrote: On Monday, December 2, 2019 at 8:08:25 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 12/2/2019 8:34 PM, jbeattie wrote: On Monday, December 2, 2019 at 3:39:38 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote: On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 09:49:37 -0800 (PST), wrote: On Monday, December 2, 2019 at 1:44:11 AM UTC+1, Duane wrote: wrote: On Sunday, December 1, 2019 at 4:17:23 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 11/30/2019 11:24 PM, wrote: On Wednesday, November 27, 2019 at 10:04:33 AM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote: Should pro road racers use dropper posts? https://www.yahoo.com/sports/worldto...111819293.html If they do, it won't be long before anyone who uses an ordinary seatpost will be scorned as a luddite. -- - Frank Krygowski I believe a dropper seatpost in professional road bicycle racing might be a safety benefit. Currently, racers descending a mountain will frequently put their groin and belly and chest onto the top of the toptube to become as aerodynamic as possible. This is a somewhat/definitely unsafe position to control a bicycle when descending. But with a dropper seatpost, the racer could get himself into the low aerodynamic position, AND remain seated on the saddle. Overall a much safer position to descend a mountain. So a dropper seatpost would be an easy safety enhancement for professional bicyclists. Who would be against increasing the safety aspect of professional bicycle racing? IMO, racers can do whatever is within the rules to win a race. But as I said, it won't be long before anyone who makes a different choice than a racer will be scorned, at least by some. Scorned? Really? Maybe by some idiots, but in general? Over the years, it's happened with lycra clothes, helmets, clipless pedals, 6 then 7 then 8 then 9 then 10 then 11 cogs, index shifting, STI, aero wheels, carbon fiber, aero frames... Not over here. I heard that the US is a ****ed up country but this I can't believe. Lou Seems to me that the scorning comes from the other way around. Just check the recent posts here about Di2. I was flabbergasted too. Is Frank not frequently 'accusing' us of: - being a victim of marketing, - using parts that are unreliable without any experience with them himself, - using equipment with un noticeable advantages/gain according to his standards. - that we are non racers and we don't need any of the new stuff even if we are telling him that it makes our rides more pleasant, - keep bugging us about wearing a helmet, He has to show me one post where I mock about his choice of equipment. I think we are very nice to him. Concerning modern equipment Frank and John B are the Statler and Waldorf of rec.bicycles.tech https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpYEJx7PkWE Lou Are you arguing that you actually "need" electric shifting (for example) in order to ride a bicycle? Or in my recent tirades, the "need" for STI shifting to ride a bicycle? I might comment, that in my usual 2 - 3 hour Sunday ride in Bangkok I might shift 4 to 6 times. On the average that would be one shift every 30 minutes... Do I really "need" electric shifting? Nope, and no one is saying you do. Unlike your weekend ride around Bangkok, I'll shift three times or more just getting out of my parking garage as the driveway progressively steepens to 15% before emerging onto the street, and I'll shift a whole lot more riding home. I'm fine with cable actuated STI, but DT shifting would be a total drag since I often climb out of the saddle, and I hate sitting down and reaching for the next gear. Nobody here is going to tell me DT friction shifting is perfectly fine. Screw that. Nope, and no one is saying you must think that. I've moved on, and that does not make me a faddist, fashionista, pretender or anything else. In fact, the fashionistas are the retrogrouches who must remind everyone that they still use friction shifting or ride a penny farthing or wear tweed or ride an Eroica bike. :-) You've implied an interesting definition: "Fashion (noun) - that which is out of fashion." Lou asked about who was mocking whom. Seems to me you've just mocked the people who dare talk about satisfactorily using older technology. If not, why the word "fashionista"? I am mocking people who make it a point of pride to ride old stuff because it is somehow more authentic and makes them "real cyclists." Read the Eroica coverage -- riding old bikes is all part of the epic struggle to cover the mileage, and it gets the riders closer to the true cycling experience, etc., etc. https://pelotonmagazine.com/features/my-leroica-ride/ Really? Screw that. I'd rather have the untrue experience of riding a gravel bike with appropriate tires and suitable gears, including shifting that allows me to keep my hands on the bars as I bounce down the trail. Well, that mindset exists in other realms. There are hunters who eschew guns, and try to take deer using bow and arrow. (That movement initiated mostly just for the challenge, and there was quite a battle before it was made legal.) There are folks who ski not by using chairlifts, but by grunting along under their own power. Some of those people still slather carefully chosen wax compounds on the bottom of their skis, changing them each time conditions change. Can you imagine? CX or AT skiing is a different sport than straight alpine skiing -- and AT and CX skis can be highly technical. AT skis, for example, are built for light weight, climbing speed and are used with skins that can also be very technical. https://www.switchbacktravel.com/best-backcountry-skis Not to mention that AT takes a lot more equipment, including beacons, probes, etc. These are not olde tymers recreating the past. The skiing equivalent to retro bikes would be resort skiing on edgeless wood skis with leather boots and cable bindings. The actual real-life equivalent are the guys who want to yak at me on the lift about their 210cm Olin skis with 50mm waists and their first generation Look bindings and the best-ever Raichle rear-entry boots. They complain about wider, shaped skis as being "cheating." Okey-dokey. You go guy, and I love your bell bottom snow suit! -- Jay Beattie. Coming from an era of wooden skis I can assure you that skis without steel edges work perfectly well. It is just that they don't work well for a very long period. Thus the invention of steel edges. But I wonder whether you with your modern equipment enjoy skiing more than I did with my wooden skis, leather boots and cable bindings? You certainly spend a great deal more money doing it. -- cheers, John B. |
#88
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Dropper posts for every bike?
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#90
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Dropper posts for every bike?
On 12/3/2019 5:44 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 3 Dec 2019 14:03:33 -0800 (PST), wrote: On Tuesday, December 3, 2019 at 6:14:34 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 12/3/2019 5:54 AM, Duane wrote: I used DT friction shifters for years. I can’t imagine anyone preferring them over brifters but whatever floats their boat. Like Eddie Merckx said (paraphrasing) it doesn’t matter how long or short you ride. Or how fast or slow. Just ride. I would also add, and STFU criticizing other riders preferences. Oh, good grief! As I've said dozens of times: This is a _discussion_ group. We discuss things. If you're so insecure that you can't tolerate any disagreement with your choices, why would you enter a discussion about your choices? Furthermore, if you pretend instead to defend _others'_ free choices, perhaps you should stop sniping at only those who differ from you. Contrary to certain posters' whining, I don't say "You shouldn't use [whatever] equipment." But I do frequently point out that for much equipment, the near-magical claims are exaggerated, or irrelevant to most people's riding. And I think I have a tendency to quantify things. Quantification shouldn't be sneered at in a "tech" group. -- - Frank Krygowski Wow, wow. Frank you started this thread. Read your first post. What was your intention when you wrote 'If they do, it won't be long before anyone who uses an ordinary seatpost will be scorned as a luddite. '? Trying to be funny? What did you quantify? In my world it is a silly insinuation. Lou I won't comment on Franks intent but read the resulting answers. It appears that without, at the minimum, STI brake-shifters it is nearly impossible to enjoy riding a bicycle these days. Has cycling been reduced to a dollars and cents level where riding a $4,000 bicycle (as one poster has frequently mentioned) results in a more enjoyable ride? On a personal basis, I enjoy riding a bicycle. I enjoy riding my bike with the down tube shifters and I enjoy riding another bike with STI shifters and, I might add, when I was 12 years old I enjoyed riding my single speed bike with the coaster brake. Will one enjoy it more if one installs $1,500 set of electric shifters on their bike? Or has cycling become just another example of macho behavior where the guy with the most "stiff" on his bike deems himself to be somehow better? -- cheers, John B. $4,000? Huh? New road bikes on my showroom floor with STi start at $850 (Bianchi) and I'm not the low price vendor (Bubba's Sports, XMart etc). -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
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