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  #51  
Old December 20th 19, 08:57 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
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Posts: 2,421
Default Yikes! Di2

On Thu, 19 Dec 2019 21:33:45 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Thu, 19 Dec 2019 19:24:38 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

And following links from the
"Updateyour firmware!"
https://e-tubeproject.shimano.com/ne...ease_ipad.html

I hope I never have a bicycle with firmware.


I hope I never have a bicycle where the component manufacturers don't
bother updating their firmware. In the computah business, everything
has firmware. Same with most everything that has a microprocessor,
controller, or brain of some type. There are many advantages and
disadvantages to having a product with upgradable firmware. I don't
want to get into a debate on those, but will mention that the major
advantage is to the manufacturer, who is able to ship a product that
isn't quite finished. In computahs, the first thing I have to do when
delivering a computah is to update the motherboard BIOS, video,
printer, and accessory firmware. Nobody ships products with current
firmware and no sane customer would run such a computer on the
original factory firmware. There are just too many bugs and security
problems to risk it. In some cases, you can't repair a product unless
you can also upgrade its firmware. So, instead of returning your
products every few weeks to the factory authorized service station for
upgrades (as is common with companies selling DMCA protected
products), you are allowed to do your own firmware updates. Unless
Right to Repair becomes an enforceable law, consider yourself
fortunate that your gadgets are not managed in the same manner as
tractors:
https://www.wired.com/story/john-deere-farmers-right-to-repair/


As I read that it appeared to reference the software used on the
machine and that the owner didn't have the right to modify the code.
But isn't that very similar to many computer programs or operating
systems? Wasn't that what Richard Stallman used to rant about?
--
cheers,

John B.

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  #52  
Old December 20th 19, 09:27 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
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Posts: 2,421
Default Yikes! Di2

On Thu, 19 Dec 2019 21:12:59 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 06:34:18 +0700, John B.
wrote:

But, some systems have not been converted to electrical/electronic
operation even after more than a thousand years. The first hand gun
seems to have been developed in China in about 1200 A.D. Manually
operated then and still manually operated today.


True. The firearms industry tends to be rather conservative. Were
this not true, we would be shooting at each other with Buck Rogers
style ray guns, and pocket size RPG missiles. This conservative
attitude is in some ways a good thing, preventing the development of
weapons that are too advanced to control or regulate. Unfortunately,
this only works between major military conflicts, where the
conservative weapons makers are inspired by cost plus military
contracts to temporarily ignore their conservative attitude and
product some truly impressively new methods of localized mass
destruction.

True the Gatling gun, the first rapid fire gun, developed in 1861, was
originally operated by a manual crank and has been "updated" to an
electrical motor to rotate the mechanism.


Yep. Also, electrically ignited primers are appearing.


I believe that electric ignition is only used in very, very, few small
arms as simply, it offers no advantage although it probably is used on
large cannon.

As an aside there have been several target pistols made with an
"electric trigger" and, as far as I know they are simply a micro
switch at the trigger which operates an electric actuator that trips
the sear.


Will this be the future of the bicycle? Conversion from manual crank
to an electric motor to rotate the mechanism?


I'm afraid so. Once eBikes becomes sufficiently common and popular,
mechanical bicycles will be limited to niche markets. When we have
our next "energy crisis", the demand for eBikes, as an alternative to
gasoline powered personal transpiration, will seal the fate of
conventional bicycles. If we do have an "energy crisis", I would also
expect to see more of this kind of transportation:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_Straight

This is happening in Singapore all ready, with e-bikes running up and
down sidewalks, roads, and paths. The results have been some rather
stringent laws - $1,000 fine for riding an e-bike on some foot paths,
operating a PMD (personal mobility device) that will exceed 25 kph can
result in $5,000 fines.

Granted that Singapore believes that draconian laws and harsh fines
are the best way to guarantee a law abiding society still they
apparently have had sufficient accidents to convince them that some
sort of control is required.

Even the conservative (and possibly reactionary) UCI is hosting eBike
races:
https://www.bicycling.com/news/a26742867/e-mtb-world-championships/
and immediately attempting to enforce an alleged monopoly on eBike
racing:
https://www.bicycling.com/news/a27074891/ebike-racing-uci/
It won't be long before we have eBike racing as a recognized Olympic
sport. When the younger generation grows up on eBikes instead of
conventional bicycles, I think it likely that they will continue to
ride and purchase eBikes when they are older.


Errr, powered, two wheel vehicles date back over a hundred years and
haven't yet made the Olympics :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

  #53  
Old December 20th 19, 11:01 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
news18
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Posts: 1,131
Default Yikes! Di2

On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 14:57:01 +0700, John B. wrote:

On Thu, 19 Dec 2019 21:33:45 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Thu, 19 Dec 2019 19:24:38 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

And following links from the
"Updateyour firmware!"
https://e-tubeproject.shimano.com/ne...ease_ipad.html

I hope I never have a bicycle with firmware.


I hope I never have a bicycle where the component manufacturers don't
bother updating their firmware. In the computah business, everything
has firmware. Same with most everything that has a microprocessor,
controller, or brain of some type. There are many advantages and
disadvantages to having a product with upgradable firmware. I don't
want to get into a debate on those, but will mention that the major
advantage is to the manufacturer, who is able to ship a product that
isn't quite finished. In computahs, the first thing I have to do when
delivering a computah is to update the motherboard BIOS, video, printer,
and accessory firmware. Nobody ships products with current firmware and
no sane customer would run such a computer on the original factory
firmware. There are just too many bugs and security problems to risk
it. In some cases, you can't repair a product unless you can also
upgrade its firmware. So, instead of returning your products every few
weeks to the factory authorized service station for upgrades (as is
common with companies selling DMCA protected products), you are allowed
to do your own firmware updates. Unless Right to Repair becomes an
enforceable law, consider yourself fortunate that your gadgets are not
managed in the same manner as tractors:
https://www.wired.com/story/john-deere-farmers-right-to-repair/


As I read that it appeared to reference the software used on the machine
and that the owner didn't have the right to modify the code. But isn't
that very similar to many computer programs or operating systems? Wasn't
that what Richard Stallman used to rant about?


Wise people choose not to go down that path of lock in software, and he
still is, as are many people.

  #54  
Old December 20th 19, 02:10 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Duane[_2_]
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Posts: 401
Default Yikes! Di2

On 12/19/2019 1:44 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/19/2019 12:16 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/19/2019 11:48 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:

Contrary to Frank's ideas, it appears that once you know
this stuff it is petty easy - easier than running cables
and attempting to get the tension correct and having to
readjust it a dozen times to get everything shifting
properly.


Once you know this stuff, it will be pretty easy - until
they come out with the next "improvement." Then you'll have
to learn it all over again. Meanwhile, the software will
have gone through three updates, each with a different user
interface. The next version of the software won't even run
on whatever computer you had; it may require you to move
everything to your cell phone.

And if and when part of the mechanism breaks, the generation
of equipment you own will no longer be available. Newer
generations will not be compatible. You may be able,
theoretically, to hack something into compatibility, but it
will involve hours of internet searching to find the hack.

All of this will be fine with most of the system's buyers,
because they won't want anything sold more than ten years
ago. And after all, why waste all muscular work pushing a
button? Only a retrogrouch would refuse to use voice command
shifting.

"Alexa, check Google Maps to see the gradient of the next
hill, and check Google Weather to see the speed of the
headwind. Check my blood sugar level and refer to my sleep
record from last night, an choose a good gear for me. Alexa?
Got that? Alexa? Are you there?? Alexa??? Hurry!! ****!!!"

And your shifting system responds:

"I'm sorry, I'm not capable of ****ting. I don't have that
bodily function."



Sorta.
And yet we survived CP/M, C-Basic, Lotus macro language. BASICA, C and
beyond, each because they offered some benefit we valued more than the
learning time.


You forgot PDP8s. Who could ever need more than 12 bits...

No one twists elbows to force sales of new equipment and as long as
fixed gear (since 1885!) remains a viable and popular option, you can't
say 'everyone's buying this new system'. Some are, some aren't, which is
fine by me.


+1
  #55  
Old December 20th 19, 03:02 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
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Posts: 13,447
Default Yikes! Di2

On 12/19/2019 10:11 PM, James wrote:
On 20/12/19 12:33 pm, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/19/2019 7:25 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/19/2019 8:19 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/19/2019 6:18 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:

Frank, How many people do you suppose there are left in
the world that use downtube shifters?


[raises hand] I'm not dead yet.

Campagnolo #1013 with Huret Svelto rear, #1052 front.
Never had any reason to change them. Work as well as the
day they were born.

I've still got my original Huret Svelto in the basement
somewhere. IIRC, replaced it with a SunTour VGT Luxe.

I know, that was awfully flighty of me. I've reformed! ;-)


It's a fashion statement of sorts.
My steel Svelto is on my Ti road bike and just so happens
to be lighter than a current DA or Record R Der.


What does yours weigh? I see 271 g including the hanger
plate [1].

And 2009 Shimano DA at 166 g [2].


[1]
http://www.disraeligears.co.uk/Site/Huret_Svelto_derailleur_1st_style.html


[2]
https://weightweenies.starbike.com/listings/components.php?type=rearderailleurs&sortby=real



I stand corrected on that as modern rears have dropped a bit
since I last compared them. Mine's 200g with direct mount
aluminum top bolt.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #56  
Old December 20th 19, 03:28 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
Default Yikes! Di2

On 12/20/2019 3:27 AM, John B. wrote:
O.

Errr, powered, two wheel vehicles date back over a hundred years and
haven't yet made the Olympics :-)


.... as far as we know...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6w3TJs0lks


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #57  
Old December 20th 19, 03:58 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 5,870
Default Yikes! Di2

On Thursday, December 19, 2019 at 9:46:36 PM UTC-8, Chalo wrote:
Tom Kunich wrote:

Frank, How many people do you suppose there are left in the world
that use downtube shifters?


I see more bikes with downtube shifters at the shop than I do of all 11-speed bikes combined. These bikes are being used, which is why they come in for service.

I don't like using downtube shifters, which stay at about the same height off the ground no matter how tall the bike. (So for my bikes, they're way the hell down there somewhere.) But they are easily the most mechanically elegant shifters around, and the easiest to deal with from a service standpoint.

I prefer index thumbshifters with a friction option to any other shifters I've tried. I wish they were still made.


https://tinyurl.com/wrk5fvk 20 clams. I'm not sure if the right has a friction option.
https://www.rivbike.com/products/sun...ter-right-side Variant for more money at Rivendell -- Grant is effusive.

I don't like straight bars for road riding because I like to move my hands around. I prefer STI and shallow drop bars.

-- Jay Beattie.
  #58  
Old December 20th 19, 04:36 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Radey Shouman
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Posts: 1,747
Default Yikes! Di2

AMuzi writes:

On 12/19/2019 6:18 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, December 19, 2019 at 4:13:22 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/19/2019 3:52 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Thursday, 19 December 2019 10:49:16 UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/19/2019 10:36 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, December 18, 2019 at 7:37:06 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
I was talking to the man in the bike shop yesterday about how
to wire up the Di2. He said to being in everything and let him
look at it so I did.

He said that the lever only used a single connector and that
was prone to some sort of troubles that I don't think he was
knowledgeable about. That all of the new levers had three
connectors each.

As an engineer none of that makes sense to me but I'll believe
him. This set was only $600 and that's less than the cost of
the levers alone on eBay.

Does anyone know what the problems with the levers is and how a
couple of switches need "upgraded" software that won't work in
these levers?

The back of the stem unit appears to take a 5 connector
push-on-style connector. That would make sense so that nothing
could get into the connector in rain etc. But I cannot find any
reference to a connector like that and the local shops really
don't know much about it. I would think - one wire each to the
levers, one wire to the battery supply and one wire each to the
front and rear derailleur. I'm sure that the bottom bracket
junction block gives you the ability to have reasonable length
wires from the stem unit and then you can buy the correct length
wires to the front and rear derailleurs.

And on the "shift cable vs. electronics" debate: it's vanishingly rare
for anyone to say "I can't figure out how this shift cable is supposed
to to connect from the lever to the derailleur."

Ah, the price of "progress"!

--
- Frank Krygowski

Ah, I've seen people come into a bicycle shop or bicycle co-op
after putting on a derailleur cable and not having the shifting
work right because they had attached the cable the wrong way at
the cable anchor bolt.

I can't tell you how many times I and others have fiddled with a
cable operated front derailleur and indexed shifter for some time
before we could get it to shift properly and consistently.

Indexed front shifter problems? I've never had a lick of trouble with an
indexed front shifter!

But that's because I've never had one on any of my bikes.
:-)

Index front shifting is a good example of unnecessary complication and
diminishing returns. Do you have two chainrings? They're already
indexed, even if they're friction! Push it all the way forward for one
ring, all the way back for the other! Why does it need to click?

It's very, very slightly more complicated if you have three chainrings.
For the middle ring, put the lever somewhere in the middle. Almost
anywhere will do, although if you hear scraping, you may need to fine
tune it.

(Complete disclosu My wife's mountain bike has an indexed front
triple. But it's given zero trouble, probably because she hasn't ridden
the bike more than 100 miles in its lifetime.)

--
- Frank Krygowski


Frank, How many people do you suppose there are left in the world
that use downtube shifters?


[raises hand] I'm not dead yet.

Campagnolo #1013 with Huret Svelto rear, #1052 front. Never had any
reason to change them. Work as well as the day they were born.


Guilty. Suntour cyclone, Campag nuevo record.
  #59  
Old December 20th 19, 07:16 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
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Posts: 1,231
Default Yikes! Di2

On Thursday, December 19, 2019 at 5:19:06 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/19/2019 6:18 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:

Frank, How many people do you suppose there are left in the world that use downtube shifters?


[raises hand] I'm not dead yet.

Campagnolo #1013 with Huret Svelto rear, #1052 front. Never
had any reason to change them. Work as well as the day they
were born.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


I will admit that after you've had brifters jumping gears all over the place that being able to shift with downtube friction shifters is a very nice respite.
  #60  
Old December 20th 19, 07:21 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
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Posts: 1,231
Default Yikes! Di2

On Thursday, December 19, 2019 at 9:46:36 PM UTC-8, Chalo wrote:
Tom Kunich wrote:

Frank, How many people do you suppose there are left in the world
that use downtube shifters?


I see more bikes with downtube shifters at the shop than I do of all 11-speed bikes combined. These bikes are being used, which is why they come in for service.

I don't like using downtube shifters, which stay at about the same height off the ground no matter how tall the bike. (So for my bikes, they're way the hell down there somewhere.) But they are easily the most mechanically elegant shifters around, and the easiest to deal with from a service standpoint.

I prefer index thumbshifters with a friction option to any other shifters I've tried. I wish they were still made.


You can get bar-ends with friction option.
 




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