#141
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Better Braking?
On 2/5/2020 6:51 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, February 5, 2020 at 3:05:53 PM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote: On Wed, 5 Feb 2020 11:31:24 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 2/5/2020 1:00 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote: On Tue, 4 Feb 2020 22:06:50 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 2/4/2020 10:24 AM, jbeattie wrote: On Monday, February 3, 2020 at 5:13:30 PM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote: On Mon, 3 Feb 2020 16:11:42 -0800 (PST), jbeattie wrote: On Monday, February 3, 2020 at 2:49:20 PM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote: On Mon, 3 Feb 2020 07:12:47 -0800 (PST), jbeattie wrote: On Monday, February 3, 2020 at 2:17:00 AM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote: On Sun, 2 Feb 2020 20:15:06 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 2/2/2020 7:11 PM, jbeattie wrote: The OE direct mount brakes on my Trek stop well enough but have a slightly different feel than Ultegra dual pivot. Their reason for being is aerodynamics and light weight. And everyone knows how critical aerodynamics are. Why, just look at how Shimano AX absolutely transformed everyone's riding experience! And light weight? Yep, pedaling your 180 pound bike+rider weight up a hill is a completely different experience than pedaling your 179.9 pound total bike+rider weight. That extra tenth of a pound absolutely sucks! Thank God for 0.06% improvements! But Frank! It's NEW! and everyone knows that NEW is BETTER..... O.K., it might cost a tiny bit more but just think, everyone will be looking at you with envy (Pssst, he's got one of them there new things...) and think of the bragging rights... "See, I was riding along on my $3,000 bike there with the new thing on it..." You have this weird fascination with price. Nobody I ride with buys anything as a status symbol -- and nobody pays OTC price. My Trek was pro-deal because I do work for the company, and most of my friends are in the industry. And even if I did pay full price for my bike, who cares? Why not have a bike that is fun to ride? -- Jay Beattie. Given that I am retired I think that some pre-occupation with prices might be wise, but more important is the seeming allegation that one must have an expensive bike to enjoy riding. You ask, "Why not have a bike that is fun to ride?" and I might reply, "Why not have fun riding a bike?" -- Cheers, John B. I'm not saying you have to have an expensive bike to have fun. I'm saying that a stiff 16lb racing bike is a hoot when your racing friends up a climb or to a city limits sign -- or actually racing. You can love your beach-bomber or whatever, but having a bike that takes off when you hit the gas is fun. The price I paid for my Emonda was a blip on the financial radar. I ride with guys who have way more expensive bikes, although none of them paid full price either. It's also fun having a bike that will bomb down a trail or carry luggage or that you can dump in the racks at work without worry (except for whacking the dyno light). I have a bunch of bikes and all are loved and used. I'm not trying to pry anyone's bike out of their cold dead hands. People can love whatever bike they want, but some bikes are more fun than others. Just like some cars, skis, monkey wrenches and frying pans are more fun than others. I even have a favorite pair of ski poles -- and a favorite dental floss. -- Jay Beattie. Strange. I have been using tools since I was a sub-teen and I can't say that I ever had a favorite wrench, other than saying that the proper size wrench (to fit the nut) was much to be admired. And while I was a member of the high school ski team I can't remember having a favorite pair of skis, or ski poles, other than having one pair for downhill and another for cross country. I asked my wife about favorite fry pans and she tells me that one uses the correct pan for what one is doing and she has been cooking for something like 60 years... But perhaps we are disadvantaged in being able to enjoy skiing without multiple sets of ski poles, or repairing things without a favorite wrench or my wife without a favorite frying pan - I shall not tell her that she is disadvantaged though as she already has a room full of pots and pans and might want to buy even more :-) O.K., just to get a base-line here, how about gas versus electric cook top? Straight razor versus triple-blade disposable? Flush toilet versus pit toilet? Do you have a favorite version of anything? And why do you always frame things in a pejorative way, like "you can't enjoy skiing unless you have (gasp) multiple pairs of skis?" I enjoy cycling and skiing, but I enjoy them more when I'm on a certain bike (depending on terrain) or pair of skis (depending on snow). Don't you enjoy sitting in a more comfortable chair -- or is it presumptuous sitting on anything other than a three-leg milking stool? Do the restaurants in Thailand have only one menu item? I have a favorite Crescent wrench with a nice padded handle that I found on the ground while riding. I have a favorite set of ski poles that are stiff with low swing weight and a generous strap (that broke, waaaah). I was skiing on Sunday, dodging all the dopes trying to get in a few runs before the Superbowl, and totally digging my favorite set of Portlund Ory-gun hand-made skis. https://shop.on3pskis.com/products/2020-jeffrey-108 Don't worry, I didn't pay that much -- but even if I did, so what? I got them at the "factory" years ago when it was about the size of a garage. I would have had fun on my other skis, too, but not as much fun. Some things just work better than others, or they're more fun to use than others. That doesn't mean that life is miserable without them. But many people _think_ many things work better; or they _think_ they are better quality. And indeed, they actually enjoy them more because they _think_ they're better. It's so heartwarming! But it gets weird when the item in question (like a "fine" wine, or a "historic" violin, or an "immensely valuable" painting) is in fact quite ordinary. And yes, that happens all the time. https://corbettbarr.com/cheap-vs-exp...he-difference/ https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017...nd-sound-check https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...nd-taste-tests Of course, there are massive amounts of money spent to influence people to think this way. And as we see here, skepticism is not treated kindly! While I can't argue with the expensive versus cheap wine tasting I can say with all honesty that some wines tastes much better than other wines. I made home made wine for a number of years and I can assure you that some of the batches were so awful that I poured them down the drain and others I was quite proud of :-) I certainly agree that some tastes better than others. And I, too, have made wine, and I too have had to dump some of it. But it's been proven beyond (reasonable) doubt that quality in wine doesn't correlate with price, as many believe. Interestingly, there was at least one test where they examined activity in test subjects' brains as they drank different wines. Tasters brains lit up with more pleasure when they were _told_ the wine they drank was pricey, even though it was the same cheap wine they'd had before. Frank, price does not necessarily equate to quality in anything (even peanut butter) and applying it to only wine is a very one sided argument as if, for example, you were to taste that stuff that they used to sell for a dollar, in gallon jugs, with almost any brand sold in bottles I believe that you would pick the bottles every time :-) Even though they cost $1.50 :-) And, I am reasonably sure that your test, mentioned above, was conducted with people who were nephrites at wine tasting as I read tests conducted at wine making get together's that show quite the opposite. Where wines are tasted from unmarked glasses. I think the best advice I heard regarding wine was to sample many different wines (irrespective of price) and write down precisely what you liked or did not like about each - i.e. whether you did or did not like that a wine was sweet, dry, semi-sweet, smoky, oakey, fruity, whatever. Then after a while, examine what you wrote. You'd be able to discern your favorite characteristics, and ask your sommelier (or grocery stock boy) for wines with those characteristics. I certainly can't speak for all wine drinkers but my friends, and myself, do exactly that. One samples various wines and when one finds one that they like they buy it. And, I can't speak for all wineries, but the ones here in Thailand all offer the opportunity of sampling their vintages with the expectation that you will buy what tastes best to you. The second best advice I heard was to just buy the wine with the most interesting graphics on the label, because that was probably as valuable as an expert's opinion. I believe that is a very foolish comment as certainly anyone who drinks wine at all can tell the differences between a "decent" vintage and a horrible vintage. John B., write this down. Wine is grapes. That's it. Grapes. If everyone buys the same grapes -- which they do since vineyards sell grapes to anyone who wants them -- then how is it that wine from those grapes will taste different from one winery or another. It wont. And even among grapes from different vineyards grown at different times, the difference is infinitesimal. Basically all grapes are the same and thus all wine is the same, and any perceived difference is just because of marketing -- fancy labels, bottles, commercials produced by Big Grape. You think it tastes "different" or "better," but it doesn't. Stop writing. -- Jay Beattie. -- Jay Beattie. Jay are you actually arguing taste with someone that thinks MaD Dog 20-20 is the same as Chateau Lafitte 67 except for marketing? lol |
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#142
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Better Braking?
On 2/6/2020 10:09 AM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Wednesday, February 5, 2020 at 11:51:38 PM UTC, jbeattie wrote: John B., write this down. Wine is grapes. That's it. Grapes. If everyone buys the same grapes -- which they do since vineyards sell grapes to anyone who wants them -- then how is it that wine from those grapes will taste different from one winery or another. It wont. And even among grapes from different vineyards grown at different times, the difference is infinitesimal. Basically all grapes are the same and thus all wine is the same, and any perceived difference is just because of marketing -- fancy labels, bottles, commercials produced by Big Grape. You think it tastes "different" or "better," but it doesn't. Stop writing. -- Jay Beattie. Nonsense. I can tell the difference between estate-made wines from grapes grown on different sides of the same hill. Admittedly, I grew up to it, as many of the grape farmers in my family were teetotallers and I made myself the designated taster. (We're talking about wines for the elite here. Some of my family have vineyards you can drive through for miles; those grapes go into still-upmarket but definitely mixed wines at the vinicultists' co-op.) I think Jay was being sarcastic... Other things I can easily tell apart that cynics tell us are fundamentally indistinguishable, include hi-fi setups with valves (what Americans call thermionic tubes) with zero negative feedback or operating in Class A, and silicon amps with oodles of negative feedback. Amps silenced by negative feedback sound nervous, as if they expect me momentarily to kick them to smithereens; every feedback cycle more higher order odd harmonics a.k.a. nasty artifacts, noise, are added. See http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/...dre%20Jute.htm for more. Good taste is a matter of discriminating the best from the merely good, which is the enemy of the best. Andre Jute The best is an exciting lifelong search |
#143
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Better Braking?
On 2/5/2020 8:12 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, February 5, 2020 at 10:16:38 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 2/5/2020 12:22 PM, jbeattie wrote: On Tuesday, February 4, 2020 at 7:06:53 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote: But many people _think_ many things work better; or they _think_ they are better quality. And indeed, they actually enjoy them more because they _think_ they're better. It's so heartwarming! Yes, you Frank, are the only person who sees things clearly -- and not the people who actually use modern equipment on a daily basis. Take discs for example. I've owned five or six brands of cantis. Cantis with STI levers on my old T100 barely stopped the bike in wet weather hauling a Burley trailer with my young son in it. They screamed to high heaven and ate rims. Wow, that's a total plus! I get to rebuild my wheels every two years. I got a different brand to work O.K. on the tandem with steel straddle rods. https://tinyurl.com/svgfzdl. But on long descents (which we actually have around here), I'd overheat the rims and blow front tires. I never did get around to installing a drag brake. If you live in some place that is not dead flat, you have to buy extra equipment to stop your tandem. Another canti plus. Meanwhile, riding to work this morning in a rain storm -- at least it wasn't ice like yesterday -- my tried and true hydro discs were dead quiet, stopped as well as dual pivots in dry weather and didn't eat my rims. And going down a massively broken up 16-20% wet descent, having brakes that actually worked was a huge plus, assuming I wanted to stop at the bottom. Cable and hydro discs have worked far better for me for over the last 15 years than cantis ever did -- yet you would dismiss them as a marketing fad. Jay, please write this down so I can stop repeating it: I'm not saying that disc brakes are not better for YOU. You're over in the 0.1 percentile, an American who lives in a very rainy climate with very hilly terrain who rides his bike to work damned near every day. Surely you understand that is nowhere close to the norm! Got that written down? No, it's already written down. I'm reading it right off the screen. Doesn't it show-up on your end? Why would I write it down again? Is it too late to drop this course? I want a professor who is not a dick-head. Coffee through the nose moment... snip |
#144
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Better Braking?
On 2/6/2020 5:11 AM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 5 Feb 2020 15:51:36 -0800 (PST), jbeattie wrote: On Wednesday, February 5, 2020 at 3:05:53 PM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote: On Wed, 5 Feb 2020 11:31:24 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 2/5/2020 1:00 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote: On Tue, 4 Feb 2020 22:06:50 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 2/4/2020 10:24 AM, jbeattie wrote: On Monday, February 3, 2020 at 5:13:30 PM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote: On Mon, 3 Feb 2020 16:11:42 -0800 (PST), jbeattie wrote: On Monday, February 3, 2020 at 2:49:20 PM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote: On Mon, 3 Feb 2020 07:12:47 -0800 (PST), jbeattie wrote: On Monday, February 3, 2020 at 2:17:00 AM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote: On Sun, 2 Feb 2020 20:15:06 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 2/2/2020 7:11 PM, jbeattie wrote: The OE direct mount brakes on my Trek stop well enough but have a slightly different feel than Ultegra dual pivot. Their reason for being is aerodynamics and light weight. And everyone knows how critical aerodynamics are. Why, just look at how Shimano AX absolutely transformed everyone's riding experience! And light weight? Yep, pedaling your 180 pound bike+rider weight up a hill is a completely different experience than pedaling your 179.9 pound total bike+rider weight. That extra tenth of a pound absolutely sucks! Thank God for 0.06% improvements! But Frank! It's NEW! and everyone knows that NEW is BETTER..... O.K., it might cost a tiny bit more but just think, everyone will be looking at you with envy (Pssst, he's got one of them there new things...) and think of the bragging rights... "See, I was riding along on my $3,000 bike there with the new thing on it..." You have this weird fascination with price. Nobody I ride with buys anything as a status symbol -- and nobody pays OTC price. My Trek was pro-deal because I do work for the company, and most of my friends are in the industry. And even if I did pay full price for my bike, who cares? Why not have a bike that is fun to ride? -- Jay Beattie. Given that I am retired I think that some pre-occupation with prices might be wise, but more important is the seeming allegation that one must have an expensive bike to enjoy riding. You ask, "Why not have a bike that is fun to ride?" and I might reply, "Why not have fun riding a bike?" -- Cheers, John B. I'm not saying you have to have an expensive bike to have fun. I'm saying that a stiff 16lb racing bike is a hoot when your racing friends up a climb or to a city limits sign -- or actually racing. You can love your beach-bomber or whatever, but having a bike that takes off when you hit the gas is fun. The price I paid for my Emonda was a blip on the financial radar. I ride with guys who have way more expensive bikes, although none of them paid full price either. It's also fun having a bike that will bomb down a trail or carry luggage or that you can dump in the racks at work without worry (except for whacking the dyno light). I have a bunch of bikes and all are loved and used. I'm not trying to pry anyone's bike out of their cold dead hands. People can love whatever bike they want, but some bikes are more fun than others. Just like some cars, skis, monkey wrenches and frying pans are more fun than others. I even have a favorite pair of ski poles -- and a favorite dental floss. -- Jay Beattie. Strange. I have been using tools since I was a sub-teen and I can't say that I ever had a favorite wrench, other than saying that the proper size wrench (to fit the nut) was much to be admired. And while I was a member of the high school ski team I can't remember having a favorite pair of skis, or ski poles, other than having one pair for downhill and another for cross country. I asked my wife about favorite fry pans and she tells me that one uses the correct pan for what one is doing and she has been cooking for something like 60 years... But perhaps we are disadvantaged in being able to enjoy skiing without multiple sets of ski poles, or repairing things without a favorite wrench or my wife without a favorite frying pan - I shall not tell her that she is disadvantaged though as she already has a room full of pots and pans and might want to buy even more :-) O.K., just to get a base-line here, how about gas versus electric cook top? Straight razor versus triple-blade disposable? Flush toilet versus pit toilet? Do you have a favorite version of anything? And why do you always frame things in a pejorative way, like "you can't enjoy skiing unless you have (gasp) multiple pairs of skis?" I enjoy cycling and skiing, but I enjoy them more when I'm on a certain bike (depending on terrain) or pair of skis (depending on snow). Don't you enjoy sitting in a more comfortable chair -- or is it presumptuous sitting on anything other than a three-leg milking stool? Do the restaurants in Thailand have only one menu item? I have a favorite Crescent wrench with a nice padded handle that I found on the ground while riding. I have a favorite set of ski poles that are stiff with low swing weight and a generous strap (that broke, waaaah). I was skiing on Sunday, dodging all the dopes trying to get in a few runs before the Superbowl, and totally digging my favorite set of Portlund Ory-gun hand-made skis. https://shop.on3pskis.com/products/2020-jeffrey-108 Don't worry, I didn't pay that much -- but even if I did, so what? I got them at the "factory" years ago when it was about the size of a garage. I would have had fun on my other skis, too, but not as much fun. Some things just work better than others, or they're more fun to use than others. That doesn't mean that life is miserable without them. But many people _think_ many things work better; or they _think_ they are better quality. And indeed, they actually enjoy them more because they _think_ they're better. It's so heartwarming! But it gets weird when the item in question (like a "fine" wine, or a "historic" violin, or an "immensely valuable" painting) is in fact quite ordinary. And yes, that happens all the time. https://corbettbarr.com/cheap-vs-exp...he-difference/ https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017...nd-sound-check https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...nd-taste-tests Of course, there are massive amounts of money spent to influence people to think this way. And as we see here, skepticism is not treated kindly! While I can't argue with the expensive versus cheap wine tasting I can say with all honesty that some wines tastes much better than other wines. I made home made wine for a number of years and I can assure you that some of the batches were so awful that I poured them down the drain and others I was quite proud of :-) I certainly agree that some tastes better than others. And I, too, have made wine, and I too have had to dump some of it. But it's been proven beyond (reasonable) doubt that quality in wine doesn't correlate with price, as many believe. Interestingly, there was at least one test where they examined activity in test subjects' brains as they drank different wines. Tasters brains lit up with more pleasure when they were _told_ the wine they drank was pricey, even though it was the same cheap wine they'd had before. Frank, price does not necessarily equate to quality in anything (even peanut butter) and applying it to only wine is a very one sided argument as if, for example, you were to taste that stuff that they used to sell for a dollar, in gallon jugs, with almost any brand sold in bottles I believe that you would pick the bottles every time :-) Even though they cost $1.50 :-) And, I am reasonably sure that your test, mentioned above, was conducted with people who were nephrites at wine tasting as I read tests conducted at wine making get together's that show quite the opposite. Where wines are tasted from unmarked glasses. I think the best advice I heard regarding wine was to sample many different wines (irrespective of price) and write down precisely what you liked or did not like about each - i.e. whether you did or did not like that a wine was sweet, dry, semi-sweet, smoky, oakey, fruity, whatever. Then after a while, examine what you wrote. You'd be able to discern your favorite characteristics, and ask your sommelier (or grocery stock boy) for wines with those characteristics. I certainly can't speak for all wine drinkers but my friends, and myself, do exactly that. One samples various wines and when one finds one that they like they buy it. And, I can't speak for all wineries, but the ones here in Thailand all offer the opportunity of sampling their vintages with the expectation that you will buy what tastes best to you. The second best advice I heard was to just buy the wine with the most interesting graphics on the label, because that was probably as valuable as an expert's opinion. I believe that is a very foolish comment as certainly anyone who drinks wine at all can tell the differences between a "decent" vintage and a horrible vintage. John B., write this down. Wine is grapes. That's it. Grapes. If everyone buys the same grapes -- which they do since vineyards sell grapes to anyone who wants them -- then how is it that wine from those grapes will taste different from one winery or another. It wont. And even among grapes from different vineyards grown at different times, the difference is infinitesimal. Basically all grapes are the same and thus all wine is the same, and any perceived difference is just because of marketing -- fancy labels, bottles, commercials produced by Big Grape. You think it tastes "different" or "better," but it doesn't. Stop writing. -- Jay Beattie. Unfortunately you don't know what you are talking about!. https://oureverydaylife.com/types-of...-12210772.html https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Champagne There are at least 5,000 varieties of wine grapes (some writers claim 10,000) and all of the major varsities of grapes make wine that tastes differently. Not to mention that even the yeast used to make the wine can affect the flavor. In additions many wines - champagne comes to mind here - are made from a mix of grapes. Yes some Vineyards sell grapes, but others, and I can think of two here in Thailand, do not and I suspect that there are many others as quite simply they have a market for all the wine that they can produce. You better stick to bicycles and ski poles as your explanation of the wine subject is reminiscent of Tom's explanation of the U.S. economy. Jay is being sarcastic. But there is a valid analogy between wines and "Better Braking" (the subject of this thread). There's a spectrum of brake "quality" just like there's a spectrum of wine "quality." Anyone can tell the difference between $2 flexible steel sidepulls and good quality brakes, just as anyone can tell the difference between $2 rot gut wines used by alley drunks and good quality wines. But when you move up the price scale, you get into diminishing returns. Most people cannot reliably detect the difference between a $15 bottle of wine and a $50 bottle of wine. This has been proven many, many times in blind tests. Here's one of the more casual ones: https://www.forbes.com/sites/katiebe.../#33edeeef3ae2 We've seen the same thing regarding bicycle equipment. Many of us remember the blind test of five identical unmarked frames made of different steel tubing, which the "expert" bike testers couldn't tell apart despite their years of rhapsodizing about minute changes in ride quality. People have adamant opinions on the critical responsiveness of shifting systems where the differences must be measured in hundredths of a second. And I've known people, and we still have people, who claim a 0.05% weight difference is not only detectable but important. Now have people fiercely arguing about "better" braking, even in dry weather, from various brakes, with no clear definition of "better." It's enough to drive an engineer to drink. Pass me that $200 bottle of port, please. -- - Frank Krygowski |
#145
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Better Braking?
On 2/6/2020 9:31 AM, sms wrote:
On 2/6/2020 2:23 AM, John B. wrote: snip An interesting article. What I found particularly interesting is that Santana apparently has been installing disc brakes on bicycles for some years now but the road bike riders are all clapping their hands and shouting about this "NEW" (40 year old) innovation :-) Sadly, Arai no longer makes their drum brake for tandems. I have an extra wheel with an Arai drum brake, for our Trek tandem. Santana also offered the Arai drum brake. See: https://www.bikeforums.net/tandem-cycling/500780-arai-drum-discontinued.html. "I did a trip to France a few years ago in the Pyrenees and I think the performance of the disk was marginal. Granted the roads out there require extreme braking. The disc would fade, often accompanied by noise and vibrations. I also melted the front rim shoes and had to replace them a couple times during the trip." From that post, it appears that disc brake fade and rim brake over-heating is a problem that the Arai drum was designed to address. One used one available on eBay https://www.ebay.com/itm/223888673332. But the Arai drum brake isn't the newest thing on the market. Heck, it's not even advertised. So it can't be any good. Right, guys? -- - Frank Krygowski |
#146
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Better Braking?
On 2/5/2020 2:30 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/5/2020 4:53 PM, Mark J. wrote: On 2/5/2020 12:16 PM, sms wrote: On 2/5/2020 12:03 PM, Mark J. wrote: snip Santana has a long history of explaining why technology X is unsuitable for tandems, then shortly thereafter promoting technology X as the greatest thing for tandems, the difference being, Santana started selling a tandem with technology X. Examples include aluminum frames, carbon fiber, and discs as you note. Do they then also claim that prior to Santana employing that technology that everyone else did it wrong? Not that we would know of any other company that does that sort of thing. Change "Do" to "Did" and I believe the answer is yes.Â* Moving forward, their ad copy largely seemed to ignore/erase their prior statements about the inadequacy of the "technology X" in question. To specifically address the issue of Santana and tandem disc brakes, see https://santanatandem.com/brake-tech/ Whether you agree or disagree with that info, you'll note that the discussion of brakes is quite detailed in terms of braking torque, heat dissipation, temperature rise, effect of temperature on brake components and on carbon forks, effect on wheel geometry, tire clearance, etc. It goes far beyond "Discs are just better" and "There are no downsides" that we tend to get here. Those who disagree with Santana's points would do well to address those points specifically. IOW, avoid ad hominem insults claiming Santana designers are just old fuddy-duddies, like we also tend to get here. My particular axe to grind here is that Bill McCready, Santana founder, regularly engaged in just that - ad hominem attacks against pretty much all his competitors. Santana products, per McCready, were superior to everything else, because they were Santana products, all other products deserved derision unsupported by data. When other builders used technology X before Santana, it was "clearly unsuitable", then when Bill used it, it became the greatest, and subject to endless/mindless hype from Bill. I'm thinking mostly of his participation in the tandem@hobbes mailing list in the 90s, so I suppose this shows I'm skilled at maintaining a grudge. His posts were extensive and consistently ... nasty... to his competitors. FWIW, I agree that his products were (are?) usually quality items, just not superior to everything else in existence, as he so regularly (and explicitly) maintained. I have a tandem fork built (by a different builder) using a Santana tube set. It's a hell-for-stout fork. Mark J. Disclaimer: Our tandem is not a Santana, but I have friends who ride those bikes and love them. |
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Better Braking?
On 2/5/2020 5:12 PM, jbeattie wrote:
snip No, it's already written down. I'm reading it right off the screen. Doesn't it show-up on your end? Why would I write it down again? Is it too late to drop this course? I want a professor who is not a dick-head. It sounds like you're looking for a professor who's a disc-haed. Write this down: Before reading posts from Jay be certain not to have a mouthful of coffee (or wine) or you'll have big clean-up job to do on your keyboard. |
#148
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Better Braking?
On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 6:42:54 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/6/2020 5:11 AM, John B. wrote: On Wed, 5 Feb 2020 15:51:36 -0800 (PST), jbeattie wrote: On Wednesday, February 5, 2020 at 3:05:53 PM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote: On Wed, 5 Feb 2020 11:31:24 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 2/5/2020 1:00 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote: On Tue, 4 Feb 2020 22:06:50 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 2/4/2020 10:24 AM, jbeattie wrote: On Monday, February 3, 2020 at 5:13:30 PM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote: On Mon, 3 Feb 2020 16:11:42 -0800 (PST), jbeattie wrote: On Monday, February 3, 2020 at 2:49:20 PM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote: On Mon, 3 Feb 2020 07:12:47 -0800 (PST), jbeattie wrote: On Monday, February 3, 2020 at 2:17:00 AM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote: On Sun, 2 Feb 2020 20:15:06 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 2/2/2020 7:11 PM, jbeattie wrote: The OE direct mount brakes on my Trek stop well enough but have a slightly different feel than Ultegra dual pivot. Their reason for being is aerodynamics and light weight. And everyone knows how critical aerodynamics are. Why, just look at how Shimano AX absolutely transformed everyone's riding experience! And light weight? Yep, pedaling your 180 pound bike+rider weight up a hill is a completely different experience than pedaling your 179.9 pound total bike+rider weight. That extra tenth of a pound absolutely sucks! Thank God for 0.06% improvements! But Frank! It's NEW! and everyone knows that NEW is BETTER...... O.K., it might cost a tiny bit more but just think, everyone will be looking at you with envy (Pssst, he's got one of them there new things...) and think of the bragging rights... "See, I was riding along on my $3,000 bike there with the new thing on it..." You have this weird fascination with price. Nobody I ride with buys anything as a status symbol -- and nobody pays OTC price. My Trek was pro-deal because I do work for the company, and most of my friends are in the industry. And even if I did pay full price for my bike, who cares? Why not have a bike that is fun to ride? -- Jay Beattie. Given that I am retired I think that some pre-occupation with prices might be wise, but more important is the seeming allegation that one must have an expensive bike to enjoy riding. You ask, "Why not have a bike that is fun to ride?" and I might reply, "Why not have fun riding a bike?" -- Cheers, John B. I'm not saying you have to have an expensive bike to have fun. I'm saying that a stiff 16lb racing bike is a hoot when your racing friends up a climb or to a city limits sign -- or actually racing. You can love your beach-bomber or whatever, but having a bike that takes off when you hit the gas is fun. The price I paid for my Emonda was a blip on the financial radar. I ride with guys who have way more expensive bikes, although none of them paid full price either. It's also fun having a bike that will bomb down a trail or carry luggage or that you can dump in the racks at work without worry (except for whacking the dyno light). I have a bunch of bikes and all are loved and used. I'm not trying to pry anyone's bike out of their cold dead hands. People can love whatever bike they want, but some bikes are more fun than others. Just like some cars, skis, monkey wrenches and frying pans are more fun than others. I even have a favorite pair of ski poles -- and a favorite dental floss. -- Jay Beattie. Strange. I have been using tools since I was a sub-teen and I can't say that I ever had a favorite wrench, other than saying that the proper size wrench (to fit the nut) was much to be admired. And while I was a member of the high school ski team I can't remember having a favorite pair of skis, or ski poles, other than having one pair for downhill and another for cross country. I asked my wife about favorite fry pans and she tells me that one uses the correct pan for what one is doing and she has been cooking for something like 60 years... But perhaps we are disadvantaged in being able to enjoy skiing without multiple sets of ski poles, or repairing things without a favorite wrench or my wife without a favorite frying pan - I shall not tell her that she is disadvantaged though as she already has a room full of pots and pans and might want to buy even more :-) O.K., just to get a base-line here, how about gas versus electric cook top? Straight razor versus triple-blade disposable? Flush toilet versus pit toilet? Do you have a favorite version of anything? And why do you always frame things in a pejorative way, like "you can't enjoy skiing unless you have (gasp) multiple pairs of skis?" I enjoy cycling and skiing, but I enjoy them more when I'm on a certain bike (depending on terrain) or pair of skis (depending on snow). Don't you enjoy sitting in a more comfortable chair -- or is it presumptuous sitting on anything other than a three-leg milking stool? Do the restaurants in Thailand have only one menu item? I have a favorite Crescent wrench with a nice padded handle that I found on the ground while riding. I have a favorite set of ski poles that are stiff with low swing weight and a generous strap (that broke, waaaah).. I was skiing on Sunday, dodging all the dopes trying to get in a few runs before the Superbowl, and totally digging my favorite set of Portlund Ory-gun hand-made skis. https://shop.on3pskis.com/products/2020-jeffrey-108 Don't worry, I didn't pay that much -- but even if I did, so what? I got them at the "factory" years ago when it was about the size of a garage. I would have had fun on my other skis, too, but not as much fun. Some things just work better than others, or they're more fun to use than others. That doesn't mean that life is miserable without them. But many people _think_ many things work better; or they _think_ they are better quality. And indeed, they actually enjoy them more because they _think_ they're better. It's so heartwarming! But it gets weird when the item in question (like a "fine" wine, or a "historic" violin, or an "immensely valuable" painting) is in fact quite ordinary. And yes, that happens all the time. https://corbettbarr.com/cheap-vs-exp...he-difference/ https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017...nd-sound-check https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...nd-taste-tests Of course, there are massive amounts of money spent to influence people to think this way. And as we see here, skepticism is not treated kindly! While I can't argue with the expensive versus cheap wine tasting I can say with all honesty that some wines tastes much better than other wines. I made home made wine for a number of years and I can assure you that some of the batches were so awful that I poured them down the drain and others I was quite proud of :-) I certainly agree that some tastes better than others. And I, too, have made wine, and I too have had to dump some of it. But it's been proven beyond (reasonable) doubt that quality in wine doesn't correlate with price, as many believe. Interestingly, there was at least one test where they examined activity in test subjects' brains as they drank different wines. Tasters brains lit up with more pleasure when they were _told_ the wine they drank was pricey, even though it was the same cheap wine they'd had before. Frank, price does not necessarily equate to quality in anything (even peanut butter) and applying it to only wine is a very one sided argument as if, for example, you were to taste that stuff that they used to sell for a dollar, in gallon jugs, with almost any brand sold in bottles I believe that you would pick the bottles every time :-) Even though they cost $1.50 :-) And, I am reasonably sure that your test, mentioned above, was conducted with people who were nephrites at wine tasting as I read tests conducted at wine making get together's that show quite the opposite. Where wines are tasted from unmarked glasses. I think the best advice I heard regarding wine was to sample many different wines (irrespective of price) and write down precisely what you liked or did not like about each - i.e. whether you did or did not like that a wine was sweet, dry, semi-sweet, smoky, oakey, fruity, whatever. Then after a while, examine what you wrote. You'd be able to discern your favorite characteristics, and ask your sommelier (or grocery stock boy) for wines with those characteristics. I certainly can't speak for all wine drinkers but my friends, and myself, do exactly that. One samples various wines and when one finds one that they like they buy it. And, I can't speak for all wineries, but the ones here in Thailand all offer the opportunity of sampling their vintages with the expectation that you will buy what tastes best to you. The second best advice I heard was to just buy the wine with the most interesting graphics on the label, because that was probably as valuable as an expert's opinion. I believe that is a very foolish comment as certainly anyone who drinks wine at all can tell the differences between a "decent" vintage and a horrible vintage. John B., write this down. Wine is grapes. That's it. Grapes. If everyone buys the same grapes -- which they do since vineyards sell grapes to anyone who wants them -- then how is it that wine from those grapes will taste different from one winery or another. It wont. And even among grapes from different vineyards grown at different times, the difference is infinitesimal. Basically all grapes are the same and thus all wine is the same, and any perceived difference is just because of marketing -- fancy labels, bottles, commercials produced by Big Grape. You think it tastes "different" or "better," but it doesn't. Stop writing. -- Jay Beattie. Unfortunately you don't know what you are talking about!. https://oureverydaylife.com/types-of...-12210772.html https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Champagne There are at least 5,000 varieties of wine grapes (some writers claim 10,000) and all of the major varsities of grapes make wine that tastes differently. Not to mention that even the yeast used to make the wine can affect the flavor. In additions many wines - champagne comes to mind here - are made from a mix of grapes. Yes some Vineyards sell grapes, but others, and I can think of two here in Thailand, do not and I suspect that there are many others as quite simply they have a market for all the wine that they can produce. You better stick to bicycles and ski poles as your explanation of the wine subject is reminiscent of Tom's explanation of the U.S. economy. Jay is being sarcastic. But there is a valid analogy between wines and "Better Braking" (the subject of this thread). There's a spectrum of brake "quality" just like there's a spectrum of wine "quality." Anyone can tell the difference between $2 flexible steel sidepulls and good quality brakes, just as anyone can tell the difference between $2 rot gut wines used by alley drunks and good quality wines. But when you move up the price scale, you get into diminishing returns. Most people cannot reliably detect the difference between a $15 bottle of wine and a $50 bottle of wine. This has been proven many, many times in blind tests. Here's one of the more casual ones: https://www.forbes.com/sites/katiebe.../#33edeeef3ae2 We've seen the same thing regarding bicycle equipment. Many of us remember the blind test of five identical unmarked frames made of different steel tubing, which the "expert" bike testers couldn't tell apart despite their years of rhapsodizing about minute changes in ride quality. People have adamant opinions on the critical responsiveness of shifting systems where the differences must be measured in hundredths of a second. And I've known people, and we still have people, who claim a 0.05% weight difference is not only detectable but important. Now have people fiercely arguing about "better" braking, even in dry weather, from various brakes, with no clear definition of "better." It's enough to drive an engineer to drink. Pass me that $200 bottle of port, please. -- - Frank Krygowski Gee Frank I didn't know that. Thank you for pointing that out to me. Still lecturing even when you are retired. Thumbs up..... Put me on my bike with hydraulic disk brakes or on my bike with single/dual pivot brakes blindfolded in dry conditions and I will tell you with 100% certainty which brakes are on which bike. Lou |
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Better Braking?
On Thursday, 6 February 2020 13:30:09 UTC-5, wrote:
Big snip Gee Frank I didn't know that. Thank you for pointing that out to me. Still lecturing even when you are retired. Thumbs up..... Put me on my bike with hydraulic disk brakes or on my bike with single/dual pivot brakes blindfolded in dry conditions and I will tell you with 100% certainty which brakes are on which bike. Lou I also could tell the difference, if I was able to ride my V-brake bicycle blindfolded, between those V-brakes and the cantilever brakes that were on it especially when riding through wet snow or slush. The V-brakes stop the bicycle in considerably less distance. Cheers |
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