Behold: Future Shock

On 4/3/2017 8:44 PM, James wrote:
https://www.specialized.com/us/en/future-shock

Is this another April-1 thing? I can never tell if what's introduced
around this time is real or not. Looks like probably not...?

It's especially telling when the fake products are more interesting than
the real ones they sell.

How do you answer when you advertise a fake product (a suspended road
bike) and people email you asking how to buy one?...

On Wed, 05 Apr 2017 13:23:05 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Tue, 04 Apr 2017 18:46:24 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
Not really. When riding your bicycle, you have 5 points of contact
with the machine. Two arms on the handlebars, two feet on the pedals,
and one posterior on the saddle. If you do anything to take the load
off one or more of these, the load is simply transferred to the
others. If a sprung handlebar were to apply an upward force on the
hands for an extended period of time, the lost upward force would
redistribute itself in additional force on the saddle and feet. You
might get some temporary relief from gravity in the arms from a sprung
handlebar, but when you return to earth from the initial launching,
your arms will feel both the upward return force plus the original
weight of supporting your upper body. That's what you feel when you
jump and land. Sorry, no free lunch today.

I see. You are telling me that the rather elaborate springs and shock
absorbers under my wife's car are a waste of money? After all there
are always just those four tires carrying all the weight?

Yep. For example, some older wheel tractors do not have any springs
or shocks on the big rear wheels. Older models also didn't have them
on the front wheel. The only real springs and shocks were in the
seat.
https://www.quora.com/Why-does-a-tractor-not-have-a-suspension-system
Since the steering wheel was attached to the frame and therefore the
rear wheels, any bump would be directly coupled to the drivers arms.

Ridiculous.

Well, if you insist. I forgot to include an executive summary that
might be easier to understand and digest. If Specialized wanted to
make a bicycle with a smooth ride, which I believe is the intent of
the Future Shock contrivance, they need to totally decouple the rider
from the bicycle. The various parts of the bicycle can move
independently and should include shocks and springs. Apparently,
Specialized feels that visible shocks and springs on the Ruby and
Roubaix models are in some way an abomination and has invented Future
Shock mostly to hide the spring and shock to avoid giving the bicycles
the appearance of a kinematic nightmare. Future Shock, in collusion
with a spring seat post, produces the desired effect. What I
attempted to demonstrate was that there were other ways to produce a
sprung and damped handlebar. Is that sufficiently ridiculous?

Then you go on for 28 lines and include 5 references to tell us all
about springs and compressed air getting hot.

17 lines (not counting URL's) and I covered more than just hot air. I
mentioned how a shock absorber reduces peak force. It also reduces
peak displacement by delaying spring reaction forces, but I didn't
make that very clear.

Incidentally, if you have an IR thermometer, you might want to measure
the temperature rise in your automobile or truck. I used to drive a
1972 International Harvester 1210 3/4 ton truck with service boxes.
When I stupidly overloaded it while doing construction on my house, I
blew all 4 shock absorbers from overheating. I vaguely recall the
limit being about 175C.

Why, all you got to do is just get on your bike and try riding your
bike over the bumps while sitting there like a blob on the seat. Then
try exactly the same thing except take a little of your weight on your
legs with your knees bent just a little. Hot Damn! Your legs will act
just like your springs and compressed air and you will sort of float
over the bumps. Why, you can even loosen your death grip on the
handlebars and just use your hands and arms to sort of balance
yourself there, on your hind legs.

That will demonstrate that leg and arm muscles can be used as springs
and shock absorbers. That's fine, but also very tiring. Some
concession to the comfort of the rider is required for longer rides. I
position my saddle so that my knees are slightly bent for that reason.
For really rough roads, I raise my posterior out of the saddle and let
my legs carry all of the load. For obvious reasons, nobody had
suggest using severed legs as springs and shocks on bicycles.

This is hardly an inovation. "Way back when" even automobiles used to
have "Knee Action". And even earlier people riding horses had made
this unique discovery.

Yep. Since it was so obvious, so common, and full of prior art, I
asked myself, why did Specialized hide it inside the stem when it
would have worked better exposed?

Words:
http://theoldmotor.com/?tag=chevrole...ion-suspension
Pictures:
https://www.google.co.th/search?q=Ch...Ha1BBMEQsAQIHg
Shorter link for USA:
https://www.google.com/search?q=Chevrolet%2Bknee+action&tbm=isch

Movin' pitchers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1W_J6UhQP6s
Nice video.

Rotary dampers are common but probably a bit big and heavy for
bicycles:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lever_arm_shock_absorber
"During the 1960s, the lever arm was replaced by the telescopic
shock absorber. This was encouraged by better roads and motorways,
increasing average speeds and driver expectations of handling. The
telescopic shock absorber dissipated heat more effectively, owing
to its larger working volume of fluid and also the better ratio
of surface area to fluid volume."

Yet another potential problem with Future Shock (Credit to Sir
Ridesalot for mentioning the problem):
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/shimmy.html
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/shimmy.html
If it moves, it can oscillate (or vibrate, resonate, shake, etc).


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 4/5/2017 10:53 AM, DougC wrote:
On 4/3/2017 8:44 PM, James wrote:
https://www.specialized.com/us/en/future-shock

Is this another April-1 thing? I can never tell if what's
introduced around this time is real or not. Looks like
probably not...?

It's especially telling when the fake products are more
interesting than the real ones they sell.

How do you answer when you advertise a fake product (a
suspended road bike) and people email you asking how to buy
one?...



But wait! There's more!
Ronco is going public again and if you buy a mere $5000
worth of new issue at the IPO you get a Ronco Rotisserie!

I'm not making this up although I did assume it was humor
not actual news when I first read it.

http://fortune.com/2017/04/03/ronco-...tic-ipo-stock/

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Wednesday, April 5, 2017 at 9:01:10 AM UTC-7, Doug Cimperman wrote:
On 4/3/2017 8:44 PM, James wrote:
https://www.specialized.com/us/en/future-shock

Is this another April-1 thing? I can never tell if what's introduced
around this time is real or not. Looks like probably not...?

It's especially telling when the fake products are more interesting than
the real ones they sell.

How do you answer when you advertise a fake product (a suspended road
bike) and people email you asking how to buy one?...

You make one! Suspended road bikes have been around in some form for a long time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycl...ty_Bicycle.jpg


My son has ridden the Roubaix and the Domane (and sold both working for different shops) and thinks they ride well notwithstanding the suspension. There is a market for suspended "endurance" bikes, although I've always endured on my non-suspended bikes. I do wish I had gotten the geometry of the newer version of the Roubaix (minus the spring). The slack head angle on the older model makes the steering feel odd. My complaints were apparently common and Specialized "fixed" the problem. I should have been paying more attention when I did the test ride. I still like the bike -- fender eyelets and room for 28mm tires on a fairly peppy road frame. It is a really good seated climber. A little piggy out of the saddle.


-- Jay Beattie.

On Monday, April 3, 2017 at 6:44:04 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
https://www.specialized.com/us/en/future-shock

--
JS

At risk of revealing my brain-dead condition [uhm... this morning, that is], I'm trying to picture 'axial compliance'.

I see the drawing with the spring inside the stem.
But this spring would be aligned with two spokes, the top and bottom spokes, while a radially laced front wheel is at rest.

Would, then, such an arrangement not provide radial compliance? How do we get to axial compliance from here?

thanks

On 4/5/2017 2:25 PM, Doug Landau wrote:
On Monday, April 3, 2017 at 6:44:04 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
https://www.specialized.com/us/en/future-shock

--
JS

At risk of revealing my brain-dead condition [uhm... this morning, that is], I'm trying to picture 'axial compliance'.

I see the drawing with the spring inside the stem.
But this spring would be aligned with two spokes, the top and bottom spokes, while a radially laced front wheel is at rest.

Would, then, such an arrangement not provide radial compliance? How do we get to axial compliance from here?

thanks


Add an Axial of course:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/michaxi.jpg

you're welcome.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

We should remember that nothing is new in bicycling.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:W...ty_Bicycle.jpg


--
- Frank Krygowski

On Wed, 05 Apr 2017 09:52:56 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Wed, 05 Apr 2017 13:23:05 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Tue, 04 Apr 2017 18:46:24 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
Not really. When riding your bicycle, you have 5 points of contact
with the machine. Two arms on the handlebars, two feet on the pedals,
and one posterior on the saddle. If you do anything to take the load
off one or more of these, the load is simply transferred to the
others. If a sprung handlebar were to apply an upward force on the
hands for an extended period of time, the lost upward force would
redistribute itself in additional force on the saddle and feet. You
might get some temporary relief from gravity in the arms from a sprung
handlebar, but when you return to earth from the initial launching,
your arms will feel both the upward return force plus the original
weight of supporting your upper body. That's what you feel when you
jump and land. Sorry, no free lunch today.

I see. You are telling me that the rather elaborate springs and shock
absorbers under my wife's car are a waste of money? After all there
are always just those four tires carrying all the weight?

Yep. For example, some older wheel tractors do not have any springs
or shocks on the big rear wheels. Older models also didn't have them
on the front wheel. The only real springs and shocks were in the
seat.
https://www.quora.com/Why-does-a-tractor-not-have-a-suspension-system
Since the steering wheel was attached to the frame and therefore the
rear wheels, any bump would be directly coupled to the drivers arms.

Do you search out these weird sites or do they simply fall out of the
sky.

Having actually (gasp) driven tractors (even at the early age of 12) I
can assure you that the reason tractors don't incorporated suspension
is that they travel so slow that a "bump" is isn't a "bump" at all, it
is simply an irregularity the ground and the tractor climbs up one
side and down the other.

I would also comment that I have driven a tractor built from a Model T
Ford that had front suspension and it didn't result in the weird
oscillation your cite talks about.

The picture your cite shows to describe how suspension would cause the
tractor to rear up on it's hind legs" (as it were) ignores the point
that the attaching point of the plow is below the rear axle
centerline. Which of course results in a force that tends to rotate
the axle in a direction that forces the body of the tractor toward the
ground.

Even the really, really, old folks knew that.
http://tinyurl.com/mzcyca4


Ridiculous.

Well, if you insist. I forgot to include an executive summary that
might be easier to understand and digest. If Specialized wanted to
make a bicycle with a smooth ride, which I believe is the intent of
the Future Shock contrivance, they need to totally decouple the rider


Actually I doubt very much that
specialized wanted to build a bicycle with a smooth ride. I suggest
that what they actually wanted top do was make a bicycle that they
could convince a lot of people to buy :-)

Then you go on for 28 lines and include 5 references to tell us all
about springs and compressed air getting hot.

17 lines (not counting URL's) and I covered more than just hot air. I
mentioned how a shock absorber reduces peak force. It also reduces
peak displacement by delaying spring reaction forces, but I didn't
make that very clear.

Incidentally, if you have an IR thermometer, you might want to measure
the temperature rise in your automobile or truck. I used to drive a
1972 International Harvester 1210 3/4 ton truck with service boxes.
When I stupidly overloaded it while doing construction on my house, I
blew all 4 shock absorbers from overheating. I vaguely recall the
limit being about 175C.

Your assertion that overloading a truck causes the shock absorbers to
"blow out" seems strange as I've seem a large number of trucks grossly
overloaded that seemed to have no problems. I remember a fleet of
1-1/2 ton trucks that were used to carry cargo from the port of Medan,
North Sumatra to villages north of the city that were so overloaded
that they bolted wooden blocks to the frames to prevent the truck bed
from resting on the tires.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 5 Apr 2017 19:58:23 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

We should remember that nothing is new in bicycling.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:W...ty_Bicycle.jpg

And they even had brakes:
http://tinyurl.com/n52j9sp

:-) :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 5 Apr 2017 19:58:23 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

We should remember that nothing is new in bicycling.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:W...ty_Bicycle.jpg

I know. I steal my best ideas from prior art.

I don't know if you can view Pinterest pages without a login, but you
might find this collection of bicycle ideas that came and went rather
interesting:
https://www.pinterest.com/pjameswright/bike/
The Whippet Safety Bicycle is in the collection, along with other
sprung suspensions. Here's a better view of the Whippet:
http://www.bicyclearts.com/images/bicycles/5.jpg
I really like the rear brake mechanism.

This one looks even stranger:
http://www.bicyclearts.com/images/bicycles/4.jpg

Where bamboo meets NPT (National Pipe Thread) water pipe:
http://www.bicyclearts.com/images/bicycles/9.jpg

Would you believe leaf springs on the fork?
http://www.laufforks.com
http://bike-advisor.com/story/first-ride-lauf-trail-racer-29-leaf-spring-suspension-fork.html

The stranger it looks, the better it works.
Gee... this is almost as much fun as concept bicycles.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558