Dropout Spacing Question (confusion)

I recently bought a 1981 Schwinn Voyageur S/P from somebody on
Craigslist. The year is determined from the number stamped on the head
badge.

When I e-mailed and asked about the bike I asked if it was 5, 6, or 7
speed and he said 6. My reason for asking was to see if it'd be 120 or
126 spacing. Like a dummy I forgot to double check, though that might
have been for the better. It turns out that it was a five speed
freewheel, but what confuses me is that it has 126 (actually 127 mm)
spacing. Has the frame been respaced? Why would they respace it and
then put a five speed back in? It looks lightly ridden, so I doubt that
it has been changed much, if ever. The front and rear wheels match so I
doubt that the rear was replaced. Googlin' doesn't return much, but I
found something that seems to indicate that it should be 120 spacing.
Perhaps it was originally six speed but somebody just bought a cheaper
five speed freewheel for it?

Does anybody have any insight on what spacing this bike originally had?
Was 126 ever used on 5 speed bikes? It's a touring model, could it be
that it had a bigger spacing similar to my newer touring bike that has
135 even though most road bikes use 130? Regardless, I'm happy that
it's 126 because that's what I wanted!!

Also... the freewheel is a Shimano 600 freewheel. I'm thinking of
riding it until it wears out, but eventually I plan to replace it with a
seven speed freewheel with lower gearing options. The thing is, it
doesn't seem to have the recessed splines like newer freewheels do. How
do you remove these? Just unscrew the cogs? How is the body removed?

Thanks!
-Rex

--
Work and recreation are not often effected at the same time.
One using a bicycle in business makes an exception to the rule.
- Dr. Edgar H. Earl, Rochester. (~1892)

On Aug 6, 5:37*pm, Rex Kerr wrote:
I recently bought a 1981 Schwinn Voyageur S/P from somebody on
Craigslist. *The year is determined from the number stamped on the head
badge.

When I e-mailed and asked about the bike I asked if it was 5, 6, or 7
speed and he said 6. *My reason for asking was to see if it'd be 120 or
126 spacing. *Like a dummy I forgot to double check, though that might
have been for the better. *It turns out that it was a five speed
freewheel, but what confuses me is that it has 126 (actually 127 mm)
spacing. *Has the frame been respaced? *Why would they respace it and
then put a five speed back in? *It looks lightly ridden, so I doubt that
it has been changed much, if ever. *The front and rear wheels match so I
doubt that the rear was replaced. *Googlin' doesn't return much, but I
found something that seems to indicate that it should be 120 spacing.
Perhaps it was originally six speed but somebody just bought a cheaper
five speed freewheel for it?

Does anybody have any insight on what spacing this bike originally had?
* Was 126 ever used on 5 speed bikes? *It's a touring model, could it be
that it had a bigger spacing similar to my newer touring bike that has
135 even though most road bikes use 130? *Regardless, I'm happy that
it's 126 because that's what I wanted!!

Also... the freewheel is a Shimano 600 freewheel. *I'm thinking of
riding it until it wears out, but eventually I plan to replace it with a
seven speed freewheel with lower gearing options. *The thing is, it
doesn't seem to have the recessed splines like newer freewheels do. *How
do you remove these? *Just unscrew the cogs? *How is the body removed?

Rear spacings could be funny during transition eras and
before indexing and cassette hubs made hub spacing more
standard. Sometimes bikes were in between 120 and 126,
and I had/have a 1984 Trek with 126mm spacing and
an original 6-speed ultra (narrow) Atom freewheel, which
normally would be used to cram 6 speeds into a 120mm
bike. Why? Who the hell knows, maybe Trek ordered a
bunch of 6 speed freewheels and Atom was making
narrow ones that month. So don't worry about that.

Very old Shimano freewheels used different types of
removers. You may need either something that fits
into two notches on the outer face, like a Suntour
remover, or a smaller spline than you're used to, like this:
http://tinyurl.com/5f8lf6

Best bet is to take it to a shop with a codger (or some
young guy with tats) that has a drawer full of old
removers and have them find the right one and
bust it off for you for a nominal fee. It will probably
be on very tight. For the small-spline ones, you
have to remove the axle to get the remover in.

Ben

Rex Kerr wrote:
Was 126 ever used on 5 speed bikes?

Yes, I have a late 70's Centurion "Pro Tour" touring bike; 125/126mm
spacing, but originally fitted with a 5 spd freewheel. That made for a
nearly dishless rear wheel - i.e. stronger than a 5spd/120 or a
6spd/126. Yours might have been mfr'd similarly, or maybe someone
retrofit it that way.

I set up my late 70's tandem the same way, but in that case the 5spd
spacing on the right was to allow for a disk on the left. Again, the
net result is a nearly dishless rear wheel, and very few spoke breakage
problems. (Spoke breakage was a big problem at the time.)

Mark J.

Replying to my own post... I found some more interesting information.
Thanks to all that replied. I'll look into that remover that Ben
mentioned, and it's interesting to hear of another that was built that
way.

I said that the bike was a 1981 based on the manufacture date on the
headbadge that was one of the last few days of 1981 . I found some
Schwinn catalogs on their website -- this model wasn't sold in '81,
and the '82 catalog says that it's a new model, so it was probably one
of the first in the production run. Interestingly the ad copy says
that it's "Aerodynamic sophistication in a new 15-speed touring
machine" and that the "new Voyager SP model offers a precise,
responsive range of 15 gears choices", and "For Alpine style touring,
the Schwinn Voyageur combines 15-speed versatility with superb
control"... yet... here's the interesting part... under specs it
says: Freewheel: Shimano Uniglide Gold 13-28 six speed.

Hrm... specs disagree with the ad copy! Perhaps it was a late
decision? Maybe it was originally intended to have a six speed
freewheel?

It gets more interesting. :-)

BTW... the bike was $450 according to their price list. That was
fairly expensive back then, wasn't it? It's the fourth most expensive
model on the list.

Rex Kerr wrote:
Replying to my own post... I found some more interesting information.
Thanks to all that replied. I'll look into that remover that Ben
mentioned, and it's interesting to hear of another that was built that
way.

I said that the bike was a 1981 based on the manufacture date on the
headbadge that was one of the last few days of 1981 . I found some
Schwinn catalogs on their website -- this model wasn't sold in '81,
and the '82 catalog says that it's a new model, so it was probably one
of the first in the production run. Interestingly the ad copy says
that it's "Aerodynamic sophistication in a new 15-speed touring
machine" and that the "new Voyager SP model offers a precise,
responsive range of 15 gears choices", and "For Alpine style touring,
the Schwinn Voyageur combines 15-speed versatility with superb
control"... yet... here's the interesting part... under specs it
says: Freewheel: Shimano Uniglide Gold 13-28 six speed.

Hrm... specs disagree with the ad copy! Perhaps it was a late
decision? Maybe it was originally intended to have a six speed
freewheel?

Or a double crank and a 7.5 speed freewheel?

It gets more interesting. :-)

BTW... the bike was $450 according to their price list. That was
fairly expensive back then, wasn't it? It's the fourth most expensive
model on the list.

The least expensive LBS quality road bike at that time would have been
in the $200-225 range.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
“Mary had a little lamb / And when she saw it sicken /
She shipped it off to Packingtown / And now it’s labeled chicken.”

On Aug 7, 4:32*am, Tom Sherman
wrote:
Rex Kerr wrote:
Replying to my own post... I found some more interesting information.
Thanks to all that replied. *I'll look into that remover that Ben
mentioned, and it's interesting to hear of another that was built that
way.

I said that the bike was a 1981 based on the manufacture date on the
headbadge that was one of the last few days of 1981 . *I found some
Schwinn catalogs on their website -- this model wasn't sold in '81,
and the '82 catalog says that it's a new model, so it was probably one
of the first in the production run. * Interestingly the ad copy says
that it's "Aerodynamic sophistication in a new 15-speed touring
machine" and that the *"new Voyager SP model offers a precise,
responsive range of 15 gears choices", and "For Alpine style touring,
the Schwinn Voyageur combines 15-speed versatility with superb
control"... yet... here's the interesting part... under specs it
says: *Freewheel: Shimano Uniglide Gold 13-28 six speed.

Hrm... *specs disagree with the ad copy! *Perhaps it was a late
decision? *Maybe it was originally intended to have a six speed
freewheel?

Or a double crank and a 7.5 speed freewheel?

It gets more interesting. :-)

BTW... the bike was $450 according to their price list. *That was
fairly expensive back then, wasn't it? *It's the fourth most expensive
model on the list.

The least expensive LBS quality road bike at that time would have been
in the $200-225 range.

In 1981 I got my first road bike, a Schwinn Sports Tourer, for $220 I
think. One model up from the Traveler, which was priced a bit under
$200. Sports Tourer had lugged steel frame, Suntour 7 derailleurs,
stem shifters, center pull brakes by Schwinn I think, SR stem and
bars, straight seatpost used with separate clamp, steel rims, 5 speed
freewheel, crank with 52-40 rings of some brand or another. Crank had
a built in chainguard, a ring of aluminum just outside the big ring.

I rode that bike many years and many miles. Restored/overhauled it
some years ago and took it out for a few rides and it was fun riding
an old bike. Then donated it somewhere.





--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
“Mary had a little lamb / And when she saw it sicken /
She shipped it off to Packingtown / And now it’s labeled chicken.”- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Aug 6, 6:37*pm, Rex Kerr wrote:
I recently bought a 1981 Schwinn Voyageur S/P from somebody on
Craigslist. *The year is determined from the number stamped on the head
badge.

When I e-mailed and asked about the bike I asked if it was 5, 6, or 7
speed and he said 6. *My reason for asking was to see if it'd be 120 or
126 spacing. *Like a dummy I forgot to double check, though that might
have been for the better. *It turns out that it was a five speed
freewheel, but what confuses me is that it has 126 (actually 127 mm)
spacing. *Has the frame been respaced? *Why would they respace it and
then put a five speed back in? *It looks lightly ridden, so I doubt that
it has been changed much, if ever. *The front and rear wheels match so I
doubt that the rear was replaced. *Googlin' doesn't return much, but I
found something that seems to indicate that it should be 120 spacing.
Perhaps it was originally six speed but somebody just bought a cheaper
five speed freewheel for it?

Does anybody have any insight on what spacing this bike originally had?
* Was 126 ever used on 5 speed bikes? *It's a touring model, could it be
that it had a bigger spacing similar to my newer touring bike that has
135 even though most road bikes use 130? *Regardless, I'm happy that
it's 126 because that's what I wanted!!

Also... the freewheel is a Shimano 600 freewheel. *I'm thinking of
riding it until it wears out, but eventually I plan to replace it with a
seven speed freewheel with lower gearing options. *The thing is, it
doesn't seem to have the recessed splines like newer freewheels do. *How
do you remove these? *Just unscrew the cogs? *How is the body removed?

Thanks!
-Rex

--
Work and recreation are not often effected at the same time.
One using a bicycle in business makes an exception to the rule.
* * * *- Dr. Edgar H. Earl, Rochester. *(~1892)

By the 80s many of the road bikes were using 126 spacing. Also many
bikes still put five speed freewheels. I had a 126 benotto frame that
came with a five speed freewheel. So, the combination that you
describe was not particularly unusual.

Andres

"Rex Kerr" wrote in message
...
I recently bought a 1981 Schwinn Voyageur S/P from somebody on
Craigslist. The year is determined from the number stamped on the head
badge.

When I e-mailed and asked about the bike I asked if it was 5, 6, or 7
speed and he said 6. My reason for asking was to see if it'd be 120 or
126 spacing. Like a dummy I forgot to double check, though that might
have been for the better. It turns out that it was a five speed
freewheel, but what confuses me is that it has 126 (actually 127 mm)
spacing. Has the frame been respaced? Why would they respace it and
then put a five speed back in? It looks lightly ridden, so I doubt that
it has been changed much, if ever. The front and rear wheels match so I
doubt that the rear was replaced. Googlin' doesn't return much, but I
found something that seems to indicate that it should be 120 spacing.
Perhaps it was originally six speed but somebody just bought a cheaper
five speed freewheel for it?

Does anybody have any insight on what spacing this bike originally had?
Was 126 ever used on 5 speed bikes? It's a touring model, could it be
that it had a bigger spacing similar to my newer touring bike that has
135 even though most road bikes use 130? Regardless, I'm happy that
it's 126 because that's what I wanted!!

Also... the freewheel is a Shimano 600 freewheel. I'm thinking of
riding it until it wears out, but eventually I plan to replace it with a
seven speed freewheel with lower gearing options. The thing is, it
doesn't seem to have the recessed splines like newer freewheels do. How
do you remove these? Just unscrew the cogs? How is the body removed?

Thanks!
-Rex

There were no "REAL" standards for rear dropout widths until Shimano
introduced their SIS indexing system in the mid 1980s. Then the defacto
standard was set at 126mm for 6 speed hubs.

"Sutherland's Handbook for Bicycle Mechanics" lists rear axle widths of
120, 121, 124, 125, 126, 127 and 128mm for rear hubs from that era.

Dropout widths of 120, 126, 130 & 135mm represent the "ideal" standards
but frames are rarely those exact dimensions. They are frequently 1mm to
2mm over or undersize.

Suntour added to the confusion with their Ultra freewheels with narrower
spacing between the cogs These allowed for 6 speed freewheels on a 120mm
wide 5 speed hub and 7 speeds on a 126mm 6 speed hub.

It sounds like you may have an old Shimano internal splined freewheel.
Most of the removers for these freewheels require you to remove the axle
or at least the right axle nut because they don't have clearance to fit
over the lock nut.

Chas.

On 2008-08-07, wrote:

Also... the freewheel is a Shimano 600 freewheel. *I'm thinking of
riding it until it wears out, but eventually I plan to replace it with a
seven speed freewheel with lower gearing options. *The thing is, it
doesn't seem to have the recessed splines like newer freewheels do. *How
do you remove these? *Just unscrew the cogs? *How is the body removed?

Very old Shimano freewheels used different types of
removers. You may need either something that fits
into two notches on the outer face, like a Suntour
remover, or a smaller spline than you're used to, like this:
http://tinyurl.com/5f8lf6

Shimano used several different, mutually incompatible designs from the
mid-70s to mid-80s. The original Dura-Ace freewheel used a two-prong
remover:

http://www.os2.dhs.org/~john/shim-dafw.jpg

This particular design does happen to be compatible with the old Regina
two-prong remover as well:

http://www.biketoolsetc.com/index.cg...em_id=BR-CT600

There were two different splined removers from Shimano; the older one is
the one you refer to above with the thick wall which requires partial
disassembly of the axle to access the splines (on the right side of the
picture below). The later "UG" remover has a thin wall allowing use
without disassembly -- like the Atom/Zeus/Phil and later splined Regina
designs, but unlike the Atom/Zeus/Phil/Regina remover, the Shimano
remover is not compatible with these other types; nor are the two
Shimano splined designs compatible with each other:

http://www.os2.dhs.org/~john/shim-fw1.jpg
http://www.os2.dhs.org/~john/shim-fw2.jpg

The thin-wall tool is available he
http://www.biketoolsetc.com/index.cg...item_id=BR-CT6

Best bet is to take it to a shop with a codger (or some
young guy with tats) that has a drawer full of old
removers and have them find the right one and
bust it off for you for a nominal fee. It will probably
be on very tight. For the small-spline ones, you
have to remove the axle to get the remover in.

Yes, it's a mess. Find a shop with the proper tools.

--

John )
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

"John Thompson" wrote in message
...
On 2008-08-07, wrote:

snip

Yes, it's a mess. Find a shop with the proper tools.


And if they are inexperienced with these things... Don't let them learn at
your expense!

In other words take it to a shop that knows what they are doing with older
bikes.

Chas.