Stuff you didn't know you needed

On 3/4/2020 2:47 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 04 Mar 2020 13:27:38 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 3/4/2020 1:20 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
As for such gadgets, I was under the impression that the retail profit
margin on bicycle gadgets was much larger than the margin on bicycle
sales. I've noticed that some (not all) of the local retailers are
featuring more clothing and gadgets in their stores than bicycles. I
suggest you reconsider your position on chain gadgets.

If you buy at $1 and tag it with a $59.95 sticker and don't
sell any, what is the net effective margin exactly?

https://www.alibris.com/booksearch?k...s.x= 0&hs.y=0

In my never humble opinion, one can sell literally anything at any
price. In other words, there's always a sucker out there with more
money than common sense. I recall a TV news interview with a couple
who had purchased an HDTV, at a very high price, when there was no
HDTV content on disk, cable TV, or OTA (over the air) TV. Did the
manufacturer think that just because the TV was useless, that nobody
would buy one? Certainly not, because this couple certainly did.

There's also a bit of arrogance involved here. Just because you
believe than a chain keeper is a useless piece of frivolity does not
mean that someone else holds the same opinion. There may be uses for
the device which we haven't considered. Selling a product into a
market for what it was never intended is the basis of many successful
products.

Lastly (I'm late for a free lunch), selling something worth $1 for $60
is nothing new or unusual. It happens all the time. One of my
neighbors was having a difficult time selling his house. He kept
dropping the price, but nobody seemed interested in buying. On the
advice of his realtor, he RAISED the price considerably over the
original asking price, and found himself with a room full of
prospective buyers bidding against each other for the house. What
happened was the higher price attracted the attention of a completely
different class of buyer, quite different from the previous bargain
hunters. So, a $60 chain keeper will be PERCEIVED as being better,
faster, lighter, cooler, or whatever criteria is used to justify
overpaying $60 for a $1 chain gizmo.

Determining the best price for maximum profit has to be tricky. The
elementary idea is that lower prices yield higher sales but with lower
profit per sale; you use data to predict the relationships and maximize
the total profit. But often, there's no good data to begin with; and
fashion and trends often throw a wrench into the mathematics.

To back up Jeff's house selling example, I've read many times that a
contributing factor to Shimano killing SunTour was pricing. SunTour's
philosophy was something like "fair pricing." Shimano's was more "Price
it higher; they'll think it's better." While it wasn't the only factor,
Shimano certainly won that one.

Many people are willing to spend more just to show off their purchasing
power. They don't buy Rolexes because they keep time more accurately.
They don't drive Escalades because they have six kids to haul around.
Maybe some of those people will buy these chain keepers to show off to
friends visiting their garages.

But I doubt it.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 3/4/2020 1:47 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 04 Mar 2020 13:27:38 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 3/4/2020 1:20 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
As for such gadgets, I was under the impression that the retail profit
margin on bicycle gadgets was much larger than the margin on bicycle
sales. I've noticed that some (not all) of the local retailers are
featuring more clothing and gadgets in their stores than bicycles. I
suggest you reconsider your position on chain gadgets.

If you buy at $1 and tag it with a $59.95 sticker and don't
sell any, what is the net effective margin exactly?

https://www.alibris.com/booksearch?k...s.x= 0&hs.y=0

In my never humble opinion, one can sell literally anything at any
price. In other words, there's always a sucker out there with more
money than common sense. I recall a TV news interview with a couple
who had purchased an HDTV, at a very high price, when there was no
HDTV content on disk, cable TV, or OTA (over the air) TV. Did the
manufacturer think that just because the TV was useless, that nobody
would buy one? Certainly not, because this couple certainly did.

There's also a bit of arrogance involved here. Just because you
believe than a chain keeper is a useless piece of frivolity does not
mean that someone else holds the same opinion. There may be uses for
the device which we haven't considered. Selling a product into a
market for what it was never intended is the basis of many successful
products.

Lastly (I'm late for a free lunch), selling something worth $1 for $60
is nothing new or unusual. It happens all the time. One of my
neighbors was having a difficult time selling his house. He kept
dropping the price, but nobody seemed interested in buying. On the
advice of his realtor, he RAISED the price considerably over the
original asking price, and found himself with a room full of
prospective buyers bidding against each other for the house. What
happened was the higher price attracted the attention of a completely
different class of buyer, quite different from the previous bargain
hunters. So, a $60 chain keeper will be PERCEIVED as being better,
faster, lighter, cooler, or whatever criteria is used to justify
overpaying $60 for a $1 chain gizmo.




Oh don't get me wrong more margin is more fun generally.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 3/4/2020 2:39 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/4/2020 2:47 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 04 Mar 2020 13:27:38 -0600, AMuzi
wrote:

On 3/4/2020 1:20 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
As for such gadgets, I was under the impression that the
retail profit
margin on bicycle gadgets was much larger than the
margin on bicycle
sales. I've noticed that some (not all) of the local
retailers are
featuring more clothing and gadgets in their stores than
bicycles. I
suggest you reconsider your position on chain gadgets.

If you buy at $1 and tag it with a $59.95 sticker and don't
sell any, what is the net effective margin exactly?

https://www.alibris.com/booksearch?k...s.x= 0&hs.y=0


In my never humble opinion, one can sell literally
anything at any
price. In other words, there's always a sucker out there
with more
money than common sense. I recall a TV news interview
with a couple
who had purchased an HDTV, at a very high price, when
there was no
HDTV content on disk, cable TV, or OTA (over the air) TV.
Did the
manufacturer think that just because the TV was useless,
that nobody
would buy one? Certainly not, because this couple
certainly did.

There's also a bit of arrogance involved here. Just
because you
believe than a chain keeper is a useless piece of
frivolity does not
mean that someone else holds the same opinion. There may
be uses for
the device which we haven't considered. Selling a product
into a
market for what it was never intended is the basis of many
successful
products.

Lastly (I'm late for a free lunch), selling something
worth $1 for $60
is nothing new or unusual. It happens all the time. One
of my
neighbors was having a difficult time selling his house.
He kept
dropping the price, but nobody seemed interested in
buying. On the
advice of his realtor, he RAISED the price considerably
over the
original asking price, and found himself with a room full of
prospective buyers bidding against each other for the
house. What
happened was the higher price attracted the attention of a
completely
different class of buyer, quite different from the
previous bargain
hunters. So, a $60 chain keeper will be PERCEIVED as
being better,
faster, lighter, cooler, or whatever criteria is used to
justify
overpaying $60 for a $1 chain gizmo.

Determining the best price for maximum profit has to be
tricky. The elementary idea is that lower prices yield
higher sales but with lower profit per sale; you use data to
predict the relationships and maximize the total profit. But
often, there's no good data to begin with; and fashion and
trends often throw a wrench into the mathematics.

To back up Jeff's house selling example, I've read many
times that a contributing factor to Shimano killing SunTour
was pricing. SunTour's philosophy was something like "fair
pricing." Shimano's was more "Price it higher; they'll think
it's better." While it wasn't the only factor, Shimano
certainly won that one.

Many people are willing to spend more just to show off their
purchasing power. They don't buy Rolexes because they keep
time more accurately. They don't drive Escalades because
they have six kids to haul around. Maybe some of those
people will buy these chain keepers to show off to friends
visiting their garages.

But I doubt it.


Optimizing margin/volume/quality/price is so complex a field
that I will sit out any general discussion.

For particular items at any point in time I'm OK, on a
pass-fail scale that is, but hardly expert. The more one
studies theory, and then pursues real world examples, the
less one tends to generalize.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Wed, 04 Mar 2020 11:47:27 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Wed, 04 Mar 2020 13:27:38 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 3/4/2020 1:20 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
As for such gadgets, I was under the impression that the retail profit
margin on bicycle gadgets was much larger than the margin on bicycle
sales. I've noticed that some (not all) of the local retailers are
featuring more clothing and gadgets in their stores than bicycles. I
suggest you reconsider your position on chain gadgets.

If you buy at $1 and tag it with a $59.95 sticker and don't
sell any, what is the net effective margin exactly?

https://www.alibris.com/booksearch?k...s.x= 0&hs.y=0

In my never humble opinion, one can sell literally anything at any
price. In other words, there's always a sucker out there with more
money than common sense. I recall a TV news interview with a couple
who had purchased an HDTV, at a very high price, when there was no
HDTV content on disk, cable TV, or OTA (over the air) TV. Did the
manufacturer think that just because the TV was useless, that nobody
would buy one? Certainly not, because this couple certainly did.

There's also a bit of arrogance involved here. Just because you
believe than a chain keeper is a useless piece of frivolity does not
mean that someone else holds the same opinion. There may be uses for
the device which we haven't considered. Selling a product into a
market for what it was never intended is the basis of many successful
products.

Lastly (I'm late for a free lunch), selling something worth $1 for $60
is nothing new or unusual. It happens all the time. One of my
neighbors was having a difficult time selling his house. He kept
dropping the price, but nobody seemed interested in buying. On the
advice of his realtor, he RAISED the price considerably over the
original asking price, and found himself with a room full of
prospective buyers bidding against each other for the house. What
happened was the higher price attracted the attention of a completely
different class of buyer, quite different from the previous bargain
hunters. So, a $60 chain keeper will be PERCEIVED as being better,
faster, lighter, cooler, or whatever criteria is used to justify
overpaying $60 for a $1 chain gizmo.

Many years ago now I was involved in a pricing study. A shop, using a
smaller "fishing boat" out board motor as the sales item varied the
price over a period of time, in steps, from a ridiculously low price
to a ridiculously high price and they found that the price/sales curve
was pretty much a bell curve with maximum sales occurring at a medium
price while both higher and lower prices resulted in lower sales.

The conclusion was that people have a "perceived" value at which they
will buy but either a higher or lower price will result in lower sales
as the low price results in thoughts that it is "cheap ****" and the
higher price results in the thought that the buyer is being "gouged".

And of course there is impulse buying... the displays at the
supermarket check-out counters are an example of that. You really
don't need that packet of "Fisherman's Friend" :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

On Wednesday, March 4, 2020 at 1:46:24 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/4/2020 2:39 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/4/2020 2:47 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 04 Mar 2020 13:27:38 -0600, AMuzi
wrote:

On 3/4/2020 1:20 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
As for such gadgets, I was under the impression that the
retail profit
margin on bicycle gadgets was much larger than the
margin on bicycle
sales. I've noticed that some (not all) of the local
retailers are
featuring more clothing and gadgets in their stores than
bicycles. I
suggest you reconsider your position on chain gadgets.

If you buy at $1 and tag it with a $59.95 sticker and don't
sell any, what is the net effective margin exactly?

https://www.alibris.com/booksearch?k...s.x= 0&hs.y=0


In my never humble opinion, one can sell literally
anything at any
price. In other words, there's always a sucker out there
with more
money than common sense. I recall a TV news interview
with a couple
who had purchased an HDTV, at a very high price, when
there was no
HDTV content on disk, cable TV, or OTA (over the air) TV.
Did the
manufacturer think that just because the TV was useless,
that nobody
would buy one? Certainly not, because this couple
certainly did.

There's also a bit of arrogance involved here. Just
because you
believe than a chain keeper is a useless piece of
frivolity does not
mean that someone else holds the same opinion. There may
be uses for
the device which we haven't considered. Selling a product
into a
market for what it was never intended is the basis of many
successful
products.

Lastly (I'm late for a free lunch), selling something
worth $1 for $60
is nothing new or unusual. It happens all the time. One
of my
neighbors was having a difficult time selling his house.
He kept
dropping the price, but nobody seemed interested in
buying. On the
advice of his realtor, he RAISED the price considerably
over the
original asking price, and found himself with a room full of
prospective buyers bidding against each other for the
house. What
happened was the higher price attracted the attention of a
completely
different class of buyer, quite different from the
previous bargain
hunters. So, a $60 chain keeper will be PERCEIVED as
being better,
faster, lighter, cooler, or whatever criteria is used to
justify
overpaying $60 for a $1 chain gizmo.

Determining the best price for maximum profit has to be
tricky. The elementary idea is that lower prices yield
higher sales but with lower profit per sale; you use data to
predict the relationships and maximize the total profit. But
often, there's no good data to begin with; and fashion and
trends often throw a wrench into the mathematics.

To back up Jeff's house selling example, I've read many
times that a contributing factor to Shimano killing SunTour
was pricing. SunTour's philosophy was something like "fair
pricing." Shimano's was more "Price it higher; they'll think
it's better." While it wasn't the only factor, Shimano
certainly won that one.

Many people are willing to spend more just to show off their
purchasing power. They don't buy Rolexes because they keep
time more accurately. They don't drive Escalades because
they have six kids to haul around. Maybe some of those
people will buy these chain keepers to show off to friends
visiting their garages.

But I doubt it.


Optimizing margin/volume/quality/price is so complex a field
that I will sit out any general discussion.

For particular items at any point in time I'm OK, on a
pass-fail scale that is, but hardly expert. The more one
studies theory, and then pursues real world examples, the
less one tends to generalize.

$8.50. https://www.amazon.com/SABLUE-Moveme.../dp/B07GJCG95H And it's a dummy hub to keep your stays from getting crushed. Looking at the video on the https://chainlift.com site, the product looks like some Rube Goldberg monster device that spends most of its life in your tool box.

-- Jay Beattie

On Wed, 4 Mar 2020 15:02:34 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:

On Wednesday, March 4, 2020 at 1:46:24 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/4/2020 2:39 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/4/2020 2:47 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 04 Mar 2020 13:27:38 -0600, AMuzi
wrote:

On 3/4/2020 1:20 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
As for such gadgets, I was under the impression that the
retail profit
margin on bicycle gadgets was much larger than the
margin on bicycle
sales. I've noticed that some (not all) of the local
retailers are
featuring more clothing and gadgets in their stores than
bicycles. I
suggest you reconsider your position on chain gadgets.

If you buy at $1 and tag it with a $59.95 sticker and don't
sell any, what is the net effective margin exactly?

https://www.alibris.com/booksearch?k...s.x= 0&hs.y=0


In my never humble opinion, one can sell literally
anything at any
price. In other words, there's always a sucker out there
with more
money than common sense. I recall a TV news interview
with a couple
who had purchased an HDTV, at a very high price, when
there was no
HDTV content on disk, cable TV, or OTA (over the air) TV.
Did the
manufacturer think that just because the TV was useless,
that nobody
would buy one? Certainly not, because this couple
certainly did.

There's also a bit of arrogance involved here. Just
because you
believe than a chain keeper is a useless piece of
frivolity does not
mean that someone else holds the same opinion. There may
be uses for
the device which we haven't considered. Selling a product
into a
market for what it was never intended is the basis of many
successful
products.

Lastly (I'm late for a free lunch), selling something
worth $1 for $60
is nothing new or unusual. It happens all the time. One
of my
neighbors was having a difficult time selling his house.
He kept
dropping the price, but nobody seemed interested in
buying. On the
advice of his realtor, he RAISED the price considerably
over the
original asking price, and found himself with a room full of
prospective buyers bidding against each other for the
house. What
happened was the higher price attracted the attention of a
completely
different class of buyer, quite different from the
previous bargain
hunters. So, a $60 chain keeper will be PERCEIVED as
being better,
faster, lighter, cooler, or whatever criteria is used to
justify
overpaying $60 for a $1 chain gizmo.

Determining the best price for maximum profit has to be
tricky. The elementary idea is that lower prices yield
higher sales but with lower profit per sale; you use data to
predict the relationships and maximize the total profit. But
often, there's no good data to begin with; and fashion and
trends often throw a wrench into the mathematics.

To back up Jeff's house selling example, I've read many
times that a contributing factor to Shimano killing SunTour
was pricing. SunTour's philosophy was something like "fair
pricing." Shimano's was more "Price it higher; they'll think
it's better." While it wasn't the only factor, Shimano
certainly won that one.

Many people are willing to spend more just to show off their
purchasing power. They don't buy Rolexes because they keep
time more accurately. They don't drive Escalades because
they have six kids to haul around. Maybe some of those
people will buy these chain keepers to show off to friends
visiting their garages.

But I doubt it.


Optimizing margin/volume/quality/price is so complex a field
that I will sit out any general discussion.

For particular items at any point in time I'm OK, on a
pass-fail scale that is, but hardly expert. The more one
studies theory, and then pursues real world examples, the
less one tends to generalize.

$8.50. https://www.amazon.com/SABLUE-Moveme.../dp/B07GJCG95H And it's a dummy hub to keep your stays from getting crushed. Looking at the video on the https://chainlift.com site, the product looks like some Rube Goldberg monster device that spends most of its life in your tool box.

-- Jay Beattie

I've always used a piece of "all thread" rod, 4 nuts and 4 washers,
both front and back when shipping bikes. Maybe a buck for the rod and
the nuts and washers out of the scrap box :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

On Wednesday, March 4, 2020 at 5:07:12 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 4 Mar 2020 15:02:34 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:

On Wednesday, March 4, 2020 at 1:46:24 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/4/2020 2:39 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/4/2020 2:47 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 04 Mar 2020 13:27:38 -0600, AMuzi
wrote:

On 3/4/2020 1:20 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
As for such gadgets, I was under the impression that the
retail profit
margin on bicycle gadgets was much larger than the
margin on bicycle
sales. I've noticed that some (not all) of the local
retailers are
featuring more clothing and gadgets in their stores than
bicycles. I
suggest you reconsider your position on chain gadgets.

If you buy at $1 and tag it with a $59.95 sticker and don't
sell any, what is the net effective margin exactly?

https://www.alibris.com/booksearch?k...s.x= 0&hs.y=0


In my never humble opinion, one can sell literally
anything at any
price. In other words, there's always a sucker out there
with more
money than common sense. I recall a TV news interview
with a couple
who had purchased an HDTV, at a very high price, when
there was no
HDTV content on disk, cable TV, or OTA (over the air) TV.
Did the
manufacturer think that just because the TV was useless,
that nobody
would buy one? Certainly not, because this couple
certainly did.

There's also a bit of arrogance involved here. Just
because you
believe than a chain keeper is a useless piece of
frivolity does not
mean that someone else holds the same opinion. There may
be uses for
the device which we haven't considered. Selling a product
into a
market for what it was never intended is the basis of many
successful
products.

Lastly (I'm late for a free lunch), selling something
worth $1 for $60
is nothing new or unusual. It happens all the time. One
of my
neighbors was having a difficult time selling his house.
He kept
dropping the price, but nobody seemed interested in
buying. On the
advice of his realtor, he RAISED the price considerably
over the
original asking price, and found himself with a room full of
prospective buyers bidding against each other for the
house. What
happened was the higher price attracted the attention of a
completely
different class of buyer, quite different from the
previous bargain
hunters. So, a $60 chain keeper will be PERCEIVED as
being better,
faster, lighter, cooler, or whatever criteria is used to
justify
overpaying $60 for a $1 chain gizmo.

Determining the best price for maximum profit has to be
tricky. The elementary idea is that lower prices yield
higher sales but with lower profit per sale; you use data to
predict the relationships and maximize the total profit. But
often, there's no good data to begin with; and fashion and
trends often throw a wrench into the mathematics.

To back up Jeff's house selling example, I've read many
times that a contributing factor to Shimano killing SunTour
was pricing. SunTour's philosophy was something like "fair
pricing." Shimano's was more "Price it higher; they'll think
it's better." While it wasn't the only factor, Shimano
certainly won that one.

Many people are willing to spend more just to show off their
purchasing power. They don't buy Rolexes because they keep
time more accurately. They don't drive Escalades because
they have six kids to haul around. Maybe some of those
people will buy these chain keepers to show off to friends
visiting their garages.

But I doubt it.


Optimizing margin/volume/quality/price is so complex a field
that I will sit out any general discussion.

For particular items at any point in time I'm OK, on a
pass-fail scale that is, but hardly expert. The more one
studies theory, and then pursues real world examples, the
less one tends to generalize.

$8.50. https://www.amazon.com/SABLUE-Moveme.../dp/B07GJCG95H And it's a dummy hub to keep your stays from getting crushed. Looking at the video on the https://chainlift.com site, the product looks like some Rube Goldberg monster device that spends most of its life in your tool box.

-- Jay Beattie

I've always used a piece of "all thread" rod, 4 nuts and 4 washers,
both front and back when shipping bikes. Maybe a buck for the rod and
the nuts and washers out of the scrap box :-)
--

Sure, but the QR is a nice touch, and you do get the cog wheel. This is a nice one, too, if you have discs: https://www.universalcycles.com/shop...s.php?id=65846 More dough, but not $60.

For through axles, you just spin in your axle. Just Google "chain keeper." The concept has been implemented in about a zillion ways. One wonders why there is a need for a more complex variation.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Wed, 4 Mar 2020 18:18:46 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:

On Wednesday, March 4, 2020 at 5:07:12 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 4 Mar 2020 15:02:34 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:

On Wednesday, March 4, 2020 at 1:46:24 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/4/2020 2:39 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/4/2020 2:47 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 04 Mar 2020 13:27:38 -0600, AMuzi
wrote:

On 3/4/2020 1:20 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
As for such gadgets, I was under the impression that the
retail profit
margin on bicycle gadgets was much larger than the
margin on bicycle
sales. I've noticed that some (not all) of the local
retailers are
featuring more clothing and gadgets in their stores than
bicycles. I
suggest you reconsider your position on chain gadgets.

If you buy at $1 and tag it with a $59.95 sticker and don't
sell any, what is the net effective margin exactly?

https://www.alibris.com/booksearch?k...s.x= 0&hs.y=0


In my never humble opinion, one can sell literally
anything at any
price. In other words, there's always a sucker out there
with more
money than common sense. I recall a TV news interview
with a couple
who had purchased an HDTV, at a very high price, when
there was no
HDTV content on disk, cable TV, or OTA (over the air) TV.
Did the
manufacturer think that just because the TV was useless,
that nobody
would buy one? Certainly not, because this couple
certainly did.

There's also a bit of arrogance involved here. Just
because you
believe than a chain keeper is a useless piece of
frivolity does not
mean that someone else holds the same opinion. There may
be uses for
the device which we haven't considered. Selling a product
into a
market for what it was never intended is the basis of many
successful
products.

Lastly (I'm late for a free lunch), selling something
worth $1 for $60
is nothing new or unusual. It happens all the time. One
of my
neighbors was having a difficult time selling his house.
He kept
dropping the price, but nobody seemed interested in
buying. On the
advice of his realtor, he RAISED the price considerably
over the
original asking price, and found himself with a room full of
prospective buyers bidding against each other for the
house. What
happened was the higher price attracted the attention of a
completely
different class of buyer, quite different from the
previous bargain
hunters. So, a $60 chain keeper will be PERCEIVED as
being better,
faster, lighter, cooler, or whatever criteria is used to
justify
overpaying $60 for a $1 chain gizmo.

Determining the best price for maximum profit has to be
tricky. The elementary idea is that lower prices yield
higher sales but with lower profit per sale; you use data to
predict the relationships and maximize the total profit. But
often, there's no good data to begin with; and fashion and
trends often throw a wrench into the mathematics.

To back up Jeff's house selling example, I've read many
times that a contributing factor to Shimano killing SunTour
was pricing. SunTour's philosophy was something like "fair
pricing." Shimano's was more "Price it higher; they'll think
it's better." While it wasn't the only factor, Shimano
certainly won that one.

Many people are willing to spend more just to show off their
purchasing power. They don't buy Rolexes because they keep
time more accurately. They don't drive Escalades because
they have six kids to haul around. Maybe some of those
people will buy these chain keepers to show off to friends
visiting their garages.

But I doubt it.


Optimizing margin/volume/quality/price is so complex a field
that I will sit out any general discussion.

For particular items at any point in time I'm OK, on a
pass-fail scale that is, but hardly expert. The more one
studies theory, and then pursues real world examples, the
less one tends to generalize.

$8.50. https://www.amazon.com/SABLUE-Moveme.../dp/B07GJCG95H And it's a dummy hub to keep your stays from getting crushed. Looking at the video on the https://chainlift.com site, the product looks like some Rube Goldberg monster device that spends most of its life in your tool box.

-- Jay Beattie

I've always used a piece of "all thread" rod, 4 nuts and 4 washers,
both front and back when shipping bikes. Maybe a buck for the rod and
the nuts and washers out of the scrap box :-)
--

Sure, but the QR is a nice touch, and you do get the cog wheel. This is a nice one, too, if you have discs: https://www.universalcycles.com/shop...s.php?id=65846 More dough, but not $60.

True, but of course when I ship a bike I take the chain off and pack
the cleaned and lubed chain in a plastic bag which gives you a nice
clean chain when you put the wheels back on :-)

For through axles, you just spin in your axle. Just Google "chain keeper." The concept has been implemented in about a zillion ways. One wonders why there is a need for a more complex variation.

-- Jay Beattie.

I did that - google "chain keeper" and got: selection #1 & #2
https://patents.google.com/patent/US7000292B2/en

and selection #3
https://www.etsy.com/market/chain_keeper
I particularly liked the second choice on that page :-)
https://tinyurl.com/uv9h4v4
--

Cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 4 Mar 2020 18:18:46 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:
The concept has been implemented in about a zillion ways.
One wonders why there is a need for a more complex variation.
-- Jay Beattie.

Product differentiation. If everyone were selling nearly identical
products, they would be forced to sell on the basis of price, service,
and support. However, if there were substantial physical and
mechanical differences between the various products in the "chain
keeper" market, there would be less price competition.

To a bicycle equipment fanatic, subtle differences in design, finish,
machining quality, packaging, user documentation, etc, might be
sufficient to differentiate between a good and bad chain keeper, but
to the average member of the GUM (great unwashed masses), the
differences are lost in the advertising noise.

Whenever I have problems falling asleep, I turn the streaming media
dispenser to YouTube and watch some of the product comparison videos.
Typically, there are comparisons of 5 to 10 items in the same product
category. I haven't sampled bicycle component videos quite yet, but
I've been watching comparisons between various knives, sharpening
equipment, portable emergency power, chainsaws, and cameras. If you
watch any of these comparison videos, you will probably notice the
extent the various manufacturers go through to differentiate their
products from the other nearly identical products, usually by changes
in finish, packaging, and advertising superlatives.

Incidentally, the problem of falling asleep during the video was
partially solved by one channel:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2rzsm1Qi6N1X-wuOg_p0Ng/videos
which presents the product comparisons in the same manner as a
military briefing. Highly recommended as an example of product
comparison hair splitting.

So, there really isn't a need for more complexicated variations of a
fundamentally simple product, unless you're the person or company
selling the product, where variations are essential.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Wed, 4 Mar 2020 15:39:29 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

Determining the best price for maximum profit has to be tricky.

Changing the price after an initial mistake is even more tricky.

The
elementary idea is that lower prices yield higher sales but with lower
profit per sale; you use data to predict the relationships and maximize
the total profit. But often, there's no good data to begin with; and
fashion and trends often throw a wrench into the mathematics.

If you're selling to a mass audience, finding a good price point that
would appeal to everyone is very difficult. If too high, the poor
can't afford it. If too low, those who can afford it suspects it's
junk. It gets worse if the buyer has no criteria for judging quality.
In the distant past, I used to design marine radios. The radios were
getting smaller and therefore lighter. Sales of new models were less
than expected. Something was wrong. We hired the former president of
a competing company as a consultant. He instructed us to increase the
weight of the new radios by adding a steel "brick". I thought this
was insane, but did my best to provide a heavier radio. Sales
instantly and dramatically increased.

What happened was that most sales were at boat shows and in dealer
showrooms. Recreational boating customers didn't have any criteria
for judging the difference between the various radios available. So,
they resorted to more primitive methods of product differentiation. In
this case, it was the theory that you get more from a heavier product,
the heavier product is better built, or heavier products last longer.
(Incidentally, this is one reason that SUV's sell quite well).
Selling by heavy weight doesn't translate well into the road, touring,
and racing bicycle market, but does quite well in some parts of the
mountain bike and children's bicycle market. So, if you're selling
bicycles or bicycle accessories into a market that doesn't care about
weight, and can't make it any lighter, try making it heavier or at
least look heavier and see what happens.

Incidentally, one reason that dark colors sell better on consumer
bicycles is because the look heavier than light colors. The customer
thinks he is getting more mass for his credits.

Back to product pricing. There is one situation where one can sell
essentially identical products at radically different prices. If you
can separate the class of buyer, and target the advertising to a
specific class of customer, it is possible to sell well. I know of a
few identical products, differing only in packaging and price, that
are being sold at radically different prices. It's very much the same
as my real estate example.

To back up Jeff's house selling example, I've read many times that a
contributing factor to Shimano killing SunTour was pricing. SunTour's
philosophy was something like "fair pricing." Shimano's was more "Price
it higher; they'll think it's better." While it wasn't the only factor,
Shimano certainly won that one.

At the time that battle was raging, I didn't know much about bicycles.
I was building my own because I was cheap and didn't want to spend too
much on something I didn't use very often. To my clueless mind, the
difference between Shimano and SunTour was the finish. Shimano went
through considerable effort to produce a polished product, while
SunTour components looked like they were finished with sandpaper.
Compare, and see the difference for yourself:
https://www.google.com/search?q=suntour+groupset&tbm=isch
https://www.google.com/search?q=shimano+groupset&tbm=isch
Well, it's not too obvious any more as Suntour eventually started
producing polished components, and Shimano switched to dark colored
plating, possible because it makes the components appear heavier and
more rugged. Anyway, I looked at all the component available at the
time, and decided that I wanted the best looking components from
Shimano, but ended up buying cheaper parts that looked ugly.

Many people are willing to spend more just to show off their purchasing
power. They don't buy Rolexes because they keep time more accurately.
They don't drive Escalades because they have six kids to haul around.

Very true. We don't drive our cars, we wear them as if they were a
suit of clothes. The cars reflect our self-image, our economic
status, and our attitude. For example, there are vehicle available
the look like urban assault vehicles, usually driven by someone who
really wants to drive aggressively, but can't for various reasons
(such as getting regularly stuck in traffic).
http://urbanassaultride.com
Sigh.

Maybe some of those people will buy these chain keepers to show off to
friends visiting their garages.

Yes, if they have friends who are impressed by gadgets. Most of mine
consider such an obsession to be a sign of a clutter addiction, junk
collecting, and becoming a packrat. It might work for a touring
bicycle, which already has enough clutter to properly hide a chain
keeper.

But I doubt it.

In my case, it's theoretical. I don't have a separate garage. Parts
of my house look much like the average garage. Visiting friends have
suggested I would do better living in a garage or warehouse. When I
was shopping for house in about 1973, one that I really wanted was a
tiny house, with a huge attached garage (room for about 6 cars).

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558