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My Emonda and the Shop



 
 
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  #1  
Old April 6th 20, 04:09 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,318
Default My Emonda and the Shop

Well, in an attempt to help a local shop by putting my new Trek Emonda in for some relatively minor work, I have been without it for a month now. I have been unable to get the shop so I assume that the owner either himself got sick or he has to attend to a family member such as his mother who is at risk.

Had I decided to do this work myself, I would have had to order the BB removal tool that comes with a set of BB press in tools as well. I would have had to pay through the nose for the wiring but I probably will anyway and there's no way I can get my new bike at the moment or make sure that the owner hasn't keeled over and I have to go to the courts to get my possessions.

The Madone 6.9 is going to need some small parts that are only available from Trek and their local shops of course are closed. So I'm hung up there as well.

This panic over a disease that has killed less that a quarter of what the seasonal flu has so far this year is really irritating. It will be interesting to see how history records this after some 4 or 5 years of reflection.

At least I have my Redline set up with Di2 and can practice the use of that.. With so many years of Campy, changing gears was second nature and it is necessary to get that way with Di2.

My wife wants me to have at least one steel bike so that will be the Lemond and after I get the Emonda or Madone going I will change the Di2 over to it and convert the Redline to manual Ultegra with hydraulic disks. That means I will have to put the GRX levers up for sale since that is the only bike I have with disks. While I have come to admire the possible stopping power of the disks, I have never needed it before or after I got them and since I'm returning to aluminum rims that is all the stopping power necessary.

So the entire 6870 group will go onto the Lemond and I will have to purchase new levers for it.

They have a partial group of 7970 Di2 on the local craigslist for "make an offer". You could probably get that for dirt cheap. But they are not compatible with anything else and it doesn't include a rear derailleur. These are as rare as hen's teeth and you'd have to pay some bike shop in Japan over $500 for one so this local group wouldn't be worth more than $100. The front derailleur is pretty beat up on this one suggesting that it didn't have the "micro-adjust" nor the automatic correction for shifting across the cassette. But eBay has a lot of front derailleurs. Why do you suppose that they don't have any rear derailleurs unless they were as unreliable as possible?

I am really pleased with the operation of the 6870 group and I'm putting 9070 on the Madone since I picked up the parts cheap. The levers look new and weigh between nothing and lighter than air. I understand that the derailleurs have carbon fibers frames and are supposed to be "significantly lighter" than the Ultegra but if they are it isn't noticeable. You would probably have to actually weight them to tell the difference. That cages have to weight the same as the electronics and the motor drives.

The Dura Ace cassette us all hell and gone lighter than Ultegra but so is SROAD cassettes for half the price of Dura Ace.

My Dura Ace rear derailleur is a short arm so all I can shift is a 28 but that was all I could shift on the Campy so there's no difference. And with the much lighter Trek, it should be an improvement anyway.

The Dura Ace crankset is called "hollow cast" or something similar. The Ultegra crankset is the same without the arms hollowed out but it is so light already that the difference couldn't be a couple of ounces. Certainly it all adds up but there is also a cost to weight ratio that you have to consider. It isn't as if I'm racing.

One extremely interesting thing I got from a GCN video was that there was a rather marked difference in speed on a flat course between a superbike like the Treks and a steel classic but otherwise pretty high end bike. I really didn't expect that at all. Since it was a course without stop signs or lights there was no stop and go for the lighter weight to make a difference as it does on my course.

So after close to 6 or 7 years using carbon fiber components I have come to the conclusion that the only place that CF makes any significant difference is in the Frameset and components that are mass produced and hence can have expensive tooling like the Dura Ace levers and frame. Wheels are almost identical weight and you don't have to go through the stupid ordeal of using carbon brake pads and the less braking power (As far as I can tell the lifespan of either wheel used with rim brakes is pretty close). While the Campy carbon crankset looks like it should weight a lot it doesn't. FSA is heavier though it looks like it should be lighter. The entire Ultegra manual group probably weighs a lb more than the Dura Ace but would that really matter to you?
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  #2  
Old April 11th 20, 05:27 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,318
Default My Emonda and the Shop

On Monday, April 6, 2020 at 8:09:58 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
Well, in an attempt to help a local shop by putting my new Trek Emonda in for some relatively minor work, I have been without it for a month now. I have been unable to get the shop so I assume that the owner either himself got sick or he has to attend to a family member such as his mother who is at risk.

Had I decided to do this work myself, I would have had to order the BB removal tool that comes with a set of BB press in tools as well. I would have had to pay through the nose for the wiring but I probably will anyway and there's no way I can get my new bike at the moment or make sure that the owner hasn't keeled over and I have to go to the courts to get my possessions..

The Madone 6.9 is going to need some small parts that are only available from Trek and their local shops of course are closed. So I'm hung up there as well.

This panic over a disease that has killed less that a quarter of what the seasonal flu has so far this year is really irritating. It will be interesting to see how history records this after some 4 or 5 years of reflection.

At least I have my Redline set up with Di2 and can practice the use of that. With so many years of Campy, changing gears was second nature and it is necessary to get that way with Di2.

My wife wants me to have at least one steel bike so that will be the Lemond and after I get the Emonda or Madone going I will change the Di2 over to it and convert the Redline to manual Ultegra with hydraulic disks. That means I will have to put the GRX levers up for sale since that is the only bike I have with disks. While I have come to admire the possible stopping power of the disks, I have never needed it before or after I got them and since I'm returning to aluminum rims that is all the stopping power necessary.

So the entire 6870 group will go onto the Lemond and I will have to purchase new levers for it.

They have a partial group of 7970 Di2 on the local craigslist for "make an offer". You could probably get that for dirt cheap. But they are not compatible with anything else and it doesn't include a rear derailleur. These are as rare as hen's teeth and you'd have to pay some bike shop in Japan over $500 for one so this local group wouldn't be worth more than $100. The front derailleur is pretty beat up on this one suggesting that it didn't have the "micro-adjust" nor the automatic correction for shifting across the cassette. But eBay has a lot of front derailleurs. Why do you suppose that they don't have any rear derailleurs unless they were as unreliable as possible?

I am really pleased with the operation of the 6870 group and I'm putting 9070 on the Madone since I picked up the parts cheap. The levers look new and weigh between nothing and lighter than air. I understand that the derailleurs have carbon fibers frames and are supposed to be "significantly lighter" than the Ultegra but if they are it isn't noticeable. You would probably have to actually weight them to tell the difference. That cages have to weight the same as the electronics and the motor drives.

The Dura Ace cassette us all hell and gone lighter than Ultegra but so is SROAD cassettes for half the price of Dura Ace.

My Dura Ace rear derailleur is a short arm so all I can shift is a 28 but that was all I could shift on the Campy so there's no difference. And with the much lighter Trek, it should be an improvement anyway.

The Dura Ace crankset is called "hollow cast" or something similar. The Ultegra crankset is the same without the arms hollowed out but it is so light already that the difference couldn't be a couple of ounces. Certainly it all adds up but there is also a cost to weight ratio that you have to consider. It isn't as if I'm racing.

One extremely interesting thing I got from a GCN video was that there was a rather marked difference in speed on a flat course between a superbike like the Treks and a steel classic but otherwise pretty high end bike. I really didn't expect that at all. Since it was a course without stop signs or lights there was no stop and go for the lighter weight to make a difference as it does on my course.

So after close to 6 or 7 years using carbon fiber components I have come to the conclusion that the only place that CF makes any significant difference is in the Frameset and components that are mass produced and hence can have expensive tooling like the Dura Ace levers and frame. Wheels are almost identical weight and you don't have to go through the stupid ordeal of using carbon brake pads and the less braking power (As far as I can tell the lifespan of either wheel used with rim brakes is pretty close). While the Campy carbon crankset looks like it should weight a lot it doesn't. FSA is heavier though it looks like it should be lighter. The entire Ultegra manual group probably weighs a lb more than the Dura Ace but would that really matter to you?


In retrospect I will probably keep the Colnago. It is build in a method that I believe to be safe an reliable. And there is a larger group that would buy the Lemond rather than a Taiwanese Colnago. But that all is in the future.

I finally contacted the shop that has my Emonda. He hadn't started on it because he was waiting for me to deliver the BB90 parts. He doesn't like to reuse bearings because he believes that knocking the old once out with that aluminum tool leaves particles of metal in the bearings. I suspect he is correct.

He had written my phone number down incorrectly so he couldn't contact my cell. And my land line is on light lines which apparently hides the owner of that phone number since they go through a different sort of interconnect. This means that when I would call, it would say, "Unknown" on the caller and he wouldn't answer it since we all get a million blank seller calls every day.

I called him a couple of days ago and left my land line so he called me yesterday and I went down and dropped off the new BB90 set. It has the dust covers and the BB95 washers in case those are necessary to keep the cranks from hitting in off-side chain stay as it appeared to do without dust covers.

The Madone not having been designed for Di2 will need some frame modifications but I have to wait until after the end of the month and I pay off the remainder of my bills to talk directly to the Trek shop to get their opinions.

There actually is exit holes for the front derailleur and rear derailleur wires but the battery wire for the external battery and the entrance hole for the stem unit connection are not present and although Trek told me that they make a special part that makes for these things, they didn't tell me what areas are strong enough to drill holes and paste them in with epoxy.

At another site they were showing the hollow DuraAce crankset broken in two lengthwise. It is plain to see that the cranks are made in two halves and probably welded together so improper welding can allow them to split lengthwise and actually break off.

I don't know if the Ultegra cranks are made in this manner but I don't think so. Although they are light, the DuraAce crankset has what looks like a hollow on the back of the crankarms which evidently is to stiffen the arms.

The aluminum bars and wheels I have are close replicas of the carbon fiber parts and they weigh slightly less. I don't need to have integrated bar/stem with the aluminum because they don't spin in the stem. Also the aluminum wheelset has a flat nipple bed and so has even spoke tension which NONE of the carbon wheels do. I can't even see how that would be possible with carbon without and EXTREMELY expensive construction process. Not only would you need a flat spoke bed which means using the Trek method of carbon fiber molding (which no one else uses) but you would have to have the wheels have the exact same strength (compression of the CF walls and then the tire bed) all the way around. While possible, I think that building the equipment for most of these tiny CF wheel manufacturers would be too expensive.

The result is that the aero aluminum wheels have an even spoke tension whereas the CF do not. This means that the wheels wander less requiring far less concentration on your steering and the consequence crashing if you look the wrong way at the wrong time.

The results of this is that I can change stem length without pulling the shifters off of the bar if I feel the need to. I also will have more reliable steering. This has been underscored by the fact that I have a set of Campagnolo Scirroco AL wheels that steer perfectly. And rather than paying a weight penalty I have parts that are actually very slightly lighter.

Is there an aero penalty? Possibly, but to tell you the truth I cannot tell the difference between the 35 mm disk wheels on my Redline and the 55 mm deep aero wheels on most of the rest of my bikes.
  #3  
Old April 11th 20, 05:47 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,318
Default My Emonda and the Shop

I might add something: I have a set of Campy Neutron wheels which are shallow box section wheels as were popular in 2010 or so. The strength difference between these wheels and the deep section wheels is rather astonishing. There is little to no bending of the wheel while riding. The last crash I had was apparently because of this bending of the box section rim. And the Aero are a completely different ball game.

The Aero rims that have sufficient spoke tension do not jerk around with side gusts save in very special cases where a gust only hits the front or the rear section of the front wheel alone. While this does occur and you always have to be on the lookout for it in gusty winds it isn't common. Properly designed aero rims usually do not respond to side gusts more than a box section rim.

Warning: the rectangular "aero" spokes are FAR too stiff and they do not respond correctly to a spoke tensiometer. Consequently they all have spoke tension FAR below what is necessary. If you buy Chinese carbon aero wheels make certain that they have "real" aero spokes in them or round normal spokes..

The rectangular spoked wheels are normally a couple of mm too long which makes it nearly impossible to tension them properly so beware.



  #4  
Old April 11th 20, 05:54 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
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Posts: 13,447
Default My Emonda and the Shop

On 4/11/2020 11:27 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Monday, April 6, 2020 at 8:09:58 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
Well, in an attempt to help a local shop by putting my new Trek Emonda in for some relatively minor work, I have been without it for a month now. I have been unable to get the shop so I assume that the owner either himself got sick or he has to attend to a family member such as his mother who is at risk.

Had I decided to do this work myself, I would have had to order the BB removal tool that comes with a set of BB press in tools as well. I would have had to pay through the nose for the wiring but I probably will anyway and there's no way I can get my new bike at the moment or make sure that the owner hasn't keeled over and I have to go to the courts to get my possessions.

The Madone 6.9 is going to need some small parts that are only available from Trek and their local shops of course are closed. So I'm hung up there as well.

This panic over a disease that has killed less that a quarter of what the seasonal flu has so far this year is really irritating. It will be interesting to see how history records this after some 4 or 5 years of reflection.

At least I have my Redline set up with Di2 and can practice the use of that. With so many years of Campy, changing gears was second nature and it is necessary to get that way with Di2.

My wife wants me to have at least one steel bike so that will be the Lemond and after I get the Emonda or Madone going I will change the Di2 over to it and convert the Redline to manual Ultegra with hydraulic disks. That means I will have to put the GRX levers up for sale since that is the only bike I have with disks. While I have come to admire the possible stopping power of the disks, I have never needed it before or after I got them and since I'm returning to aluminum rims that is all the stopping power necessary.

So the entire 6870 group will go onto the Lemond and I will have to purchase new levers for it.

They have a partial group of 7970 Di2 on the local craigslist for "make an offer". You could probably get that for dirt cheap. But they are not compatible with anything else and it doesn't include a rear derailleur. These are as rare as hen's teeth and you'd have to pay some bike shop in Japan over $500 for one so this local group wouldn't be worth more than $100. The front derailleur is pretty beat up on this one suggesting that it didn't have the "micro-adjust" nor the automatic correction for shifting across the cassette. But eBay has a lot of front derailleurs. Why do you suppose that they don't have any rear derailleurs unless they were as unreliable as possible?

I am really pleased with the operation of the 6870 group and I'm putting 9070 on the Madone since I picked up the parts cheap. The levers look new and weigh between nothing and lighter than air. I understand that the derailleurs have carbon fibers frames and are supposed to be "significantly lighter" than the Ultegra but if they are it isn't noticeable. You would probably have to actually weight them to tell the difference. That cages have to weight the same as the electronics and the motor drives.

The Dura Ace cassette us all hell and gone lighter than Ultegra but so is SROAD cassettes for half the price of Dura Ace.

My Dura Ace rear derailleur is a short arm so all I can shift is a 28 but that was all I could shift on the Campy so there's no difference. And with the much lighter Trek, it should be an improvement anyway.

The Dura Ace crankset is called "hollow cast" or something similar. The Ultegra crankset is the same without the arms hollowed out but it is so light already that the difference couldn't be a couple of ounces. Certainly it all adds up but there is also a cost to weight ratio that you have to consider. It isn't as if I'm racing.

One extremely interesting thing I got from a GCN video was that there was a rather marked difference in speed on a flat course between a superbike like the Treks and a steel classic but otherwise pretty high end bike. I really didn't expect that at all. Since it was a course without stop signs or lights there was no stop and go for the lighter weight to make a difference as it does on my course.

So after close to 6 or 7 years using carbon fiber components I have come to the conclusion that the only place that CF makes any significant difference is in the Frameset and components that are mass produced and hence can have expensive tooling like the Dura Ace levers and frame. Wheels are almost identical weight and you don't have to go through the stupid ordeal of using carbon brake pads and the less braking power (As far as I can tell the lifespan of either wheel used with rim brakes is pretty close). While the Campy carbon crankset looks like it should weight a lot it doesn't. FSA is heavier though it looks like it should be lighter. The entire Ultegra manual group probably weighs a lb more than the Dura Ace but would that really matter to you?


In retrospect I will probably keep the Colnago. It is build in a method that I believe to be safe an reliable. And there is a larger group that would buy the Lemond rather than a Taiwanese Colnago. But that all is in the future.

I finally contacted the shop that has my Emonda. He hadn't started on it because he was waiting for me to deliver the BB90 parts. He doesn't like to reuse bearings because he believes that knocking the old once out with that aluminum tool leaves particles of metal in the bearings. I suspect he is correct.

He had written my phone number down incorrectly so he couldn't contact my cell. And my land line is on light lines which apparently hides the owner of that phone number since they go through a different sort of interconnect. This means that when I would call, it would say, "Unknown" on the caller and he wouldn't answer it since we all get a million blank seller calls every day.

I called him a couple of days ago and left my land line so he called me yesterday and I went down and dropped off the new BB90 set. It has the dust covers and the BB95 washers in case those are necessary to keep the cranks from hitting in off-side chain stay as it appeared to do without dust covers.

The Madone not having been designed for Di2 will need some frame modifications but I have to wait until after the end of the month and I pay off the remainder of my bills to talk directly to the Trek shop to get their opinions.

There actually is exit holes for the front derailleur and rear derailleur wires but the battery wire for the external battery and the entrance hole for the stem unit connection are not present and although Trek told me that they make a special part that makes for these things, they didn't tell me what areas are strong enough to drill holes and paste them in with epoxy.

At another site they were showing the hollow DuraAce crankset broken in two lengthwise. It is plain to see that the cranks are made in two halves and probably welded together so improper welding can allow them to split lengthwise and actually break off.

I don't know if the Ultegra cranks are made in this manner but I don't think so. Although they are light, the DuraAce crankset has what looks like a hollow on the back of the crankarms which evidently is to stiffen the arms.

The aluminum bars and wheels I have are close replicas of the carbon fiber parts and they weigh slightly less. I don't need to have integrated bar/stem with the aluminum because they don't spin in the stem. Also the aluminum wheelset has a flat nipple bed and so has even spoke tension which NONE of the carbon wheels do. I can't even see how that would be possible with carbon without and EXTREMELY expensive construction process. Not only would you need a flat spoke bed which means using the Trek method of carbon fiber molding (which no one else uses) but you would have to have the wheels have the exact same strength (compression of the CF walls and then the tire bed) all the way around. While possible, I think that building the equipment for most of these tiny CF wheel manufacturers would be too expensive.

The result is that the aero aluminum wheels have an even spoke tension whereas the CF do not. This means that the wheels wander less requiring far less concentration on your steering and the consequence crashing if you look the wrong way at the wrong time.

The results of this is that I can change stem length without pulling the shifters off of the bar if I feel the need to. I also will have more reliable steering. This has been underscored by the fact that I have a set of Campagnolo Scirroco AL wheels that steer perfectly. And rather than paying a weight penalty I have parts that are actually very slightly lighter.

Is there an aero penalty? Possibly, but to tell you the truth I cannot tell the difference between the 35 mm disk wheels on my Redline and the 55 mm deep aero wheels on most of the rest of my bikes.



"doesn't like to reuse bearings because he believes that
knocking the old once out with that aluminum tool leaves
particles of metal in the bearings."

Interesting theory. Ask him if he thinks holy water or
burning incense might help since it seems well beyond
physics as we know it.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #5  
Old April 11th 20, 07:03 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,477
Default My Emonda and the Shop

On 4/11/2020 9:54 AM, AMuzi wrote:

snip

In my county, bicycle shops are expressly allowed to remain open. In the
next county, I know that Chain Reaction is open (owned by Mike
Jacubowsky who used to post here) and they are almost entirely a Trek
shop and would have any parts needed by Tom.


  #6  
Old April 12th 20, 12:23 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,318
Default My Emonda and the Shop

On Saturday, April 11, 2020 at 9:54:19 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/11/2020 11:27 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Monday, April 6, 2020 at 8:09:58 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
Well, in an attempt to help a local shop by putting my new Trek Emonda in for some relatively minor work, I have been without it for a month now. I have been unable to get the shop so I assume that the owner either himself got sick or he has to attend to a family member such as his mother who is at risk.

Had I decided to do this work myself, I would have had to order the BB removal tool that comes with a set of BB press in tools as well. I would have had to pay through the nose for the wiring but I probably will anyway and there's no way I can get my new bike at the moment or make sure that the owner hasn't keeled over and I have to go to the courts to get my possessions.

The Madone 6.9 is going to need some small parts that are only available from Trek and their local shops of course are closed. So I'm hung up there as well.

This panic over a disease that has killed less that a quarter of what the seasonal flu has so far this year is really irritating. It will be interesting to see how history records this after some 4 or 5 years of reflection.

At least I have my Redline set up with Di2 and can practice the use of that. With so many years of Campy, changing gears was second nature and it is necessary to get that way with Di2.

My wife wants me to have at least one steel bike so that will be the Lemond and after I get the Emonda or Madone going I will change the Di2 over to it and convert the Redline to manual Ultegra with hydraulic disks. That means I will have to put the GRX levers up for sale since that is the only bike I have with disks. While I have come to admire the possible stopping power of the disks, I have never needed it before or after I got them and since I'm returning to aluminum rims that is all the stopping power necessary.

So the entire 6870 group will go onto the Lemond and I will have to purchase new levers for it.

They have a partial group of 7970 Di2 on the local craigslist for "make an offer". You could probably get that for dirt cheap. But they are not compatible with anything else and it doesn't include a rear derailleur. These are as rare as hen's teeth and you'd have to pay some bike shop in Japan over $500 for one so this local group wouldn't be worth more than $100. The front derailleur is pretty beat up on this one suggesting that it didn't have the "micro-adjust" nor the automatic correction for shifting across the cassette. But eBay has a lot of front derailleurs. Why do you suppose that they don't have any rear derailleurs unless they were as unreliable as possible?

I am really pleased with the operation of the 6870 group and I'm putting 9070 on the Madone since I picked up the parts cheap. The levers look new and weigh between nothing and lighter than air. I understand that the derailleurs have carbon fibers frames and are supposed to be "significantly lighter" than the Ultegra but if they are it isn't noticeable. You would probably have to actually weight them to tell the difference. That cages have to weight the same as the electronics and the motor drives.

The Dura Ace cassette us all hell and gone lighter than Ultegra but so is SROAD cassettes for half the price of Dura Ace.

My Dura Ace rear derailleur is a short arm so all I can shift is a 28 but that was all I could shift on the Campy so there's no difference. And with the much lighter Trek, it should be an improvement anyway.

The Dura Ace crankset is called "hollow cast" or something similar. The Ultegra crankset is the same without the arms hollowed out but it is so light already that the difference couldn't be a couple of ounces. Certainly it all adds up but there is also a cost to weight ratio that you have to consider. It isn't as if I'm racing.

One extremely interesting thing I got from a GCN video was that there was a rather marked difference in speed on a flat course between a superbike like the Treks and a steel classic but otherwise pretty high end bike. I really didn't expect that at all. Since it was a course without stop signs or lights there was no stop and go for the lighter weight to make a difference as it does on my course.

So after close to 6 or 7 years using carbon fiber components I have come to the conclusion that the only place that CF makes any significant difference is in the Frameset and components that are mass produced and hence can have expensive tooling like the Dura Ace levers and frame. Wheels are almost identical weight and you don't have to go through the stupid ordeal of using carbon brake pads and the less braking power (As far as I can tell the lifespan of either wheel used with rim brakes is pretty close). While the Campy carbon crankset looks like it should weight a lot it doesn't. FSA is heavier though it looks like it should be lighter. The entire Ultegra manual group probably weighs a lb more than the Dura Ace but would that really matter to you?


In retrospect I will probably keep the Colnago. It is build in a method that I believe to be safe an reliable. And there is a larger group that would buy the Lemond rather than a Taiwanese Colnago. But that all is in the future.

I finally contacted the shop that has my Emonda. He hadn't started on it because he was waiting for me to deliver the BB90 parts. He doesn't like to reuse bearings because he believes that knocking the old once out with that aluminum tool leaves particles of metal in the bearings. I suspect he is correct.

He had written my phone number down incorrectly so he couldn't contact my cell. And my land line is on light lines which apparently hides the owner of that phone number since they go through a different sort of interconnect. This means that when I would call, it would say, "Unknown" on the caller and he wouldn't answer it since we all get a million blank seller calls every day.

I called him a couple of days ago and left my land line so he called me yesterday and I went down and dropped off the new BB90 set. It has the dust covers and the BB95 washers in case those are necessary to keep the cranks from hitting in off-side chain stay as it appeared to do without dust covers.

The Madone not having been designed for Di2 will need some frame modifications but I have to wait until after the end of the month and I pay off the remainder of my bills to talk directly to the Trek shop to get their opinions.

There actually is exit holes for the front derailleur and rear derailleur wires but the battery wire for the external battery and the entrance hole for the stem unit connection are not present and although Trek told me that they make a special part that makes for these things, they didn't tell me what areas are strong enough to drill holes and paste them in with epoxy.

At another site they were showing the hollow DuraAce crankset broken in two lengthwise. It is plain to see that the cranks are made in two halves and probably welded together so improper welding can allow them to split lengthwise and actually break off.

I don't know if the Ultegra cranks are made in this manner but I don't think so. Although they are light, the DuraAce crankset has what looks like a hollow on the back of the crankarms which evidently is to stiffen the arms.

The aluminum bars and wheels I have are close replicas of the carbon fiber parts and they weigh slightly less. I don't need to have integrated bar/stem with the aluminum because they don't spin in the stem. Also the aluminum wheelset has a flat nipple bed and so has even spoke tension which NONE of the carbon wheels do. I can't even see how that would be possible with carbon without and EXTREMELY expensive construction process. Not only would you need a flat spoke bed which means using the Trek method of carbon fiber molding (which no one else uses) but you would have to have the wheels have the exact same strength (compression of the CF walls and then the tire bed) all the way around. While possible, I think that building the equipment for most of these tiny CF wheel manufacturers would be too expensive.

The result is that the aero aluminum wheels have an even spoke tension whereas the CF do not. This means that the wheels wander less requiring far less concentration on your steering and the consequence crashing if you look the wrong way at the wrong time.

The results of this is that I can change stem length without pulling the shifters off of the bar if I feel the need to. I also will have more reliable steering. This has been underscored by the fact that I have a set of Campagnolo Scirroco AL wheels that steer perfectly. And rather than paying a weight penalty I have parts that are actually very slightly lighter.

Is there an aero penalty? Possibly, but to tell you the truth I cannot tell the difference between the 35 mm disk wheels on my Redline and the 55 mm deep aero wheels on most of the rest of my bikes.



"doesn't like to reuse bearings because he believes that
knocking the old once out with that aluminum tool leaves
particles of metal in the bearings."

Interesting theory. Ask him if he thinks holy water or
burning incense might help since it seems well beyond
physics as we know it.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


Perhaps you'd like to explain to me why you believe this couldn't occur?

The tool is aluminum and the way it is used any one of the fingers can push around the seals on the bearings and ram against the ball bearing releasing particles. Let's remember that the way normal bearing wear out is by flaking bits of metal off of the ball or races under heavy loads which forms and abrasive grit that mixed with the "permanent" lubricant wears out the bearings.

While aluminum is too soft itself to cause abrasions of the steel it does form a layer on the surfaces which cause a jumping of the bearing and thus much more rapid wear. Bearings 101.
  #7  
Old April 12th 20, 12:24 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,318
Default My Emonda and the Shop

On Saturday, April 11, 2020 at 11:03:49 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 4/11/2020 9:54 AM, AMuzi wrote:

snip

In my county, bicycle shops are expressly allowed to remain open. In the
next county, I know that Chain Reaction is open (owned by Mike
Jacubowsky who used to post here) and they are almost entirely a Trek
shop and would have any parts needed by Tom.


All of the bicycle shops here are open as well though a number of them leave the doors locked and you have to call and make an appointment.
  #8  
Old April 12th 20, 01:06 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default My Emonda and the Shop

On Saturday, April 11, 2020 at 11:03:49 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 4/11/2020 9:54 AM, AMuzi wrote:

snip

In my county, bicycle shops are expressly allowed to remain open. In the
next county, I know that Chain Reaction is open (owned by Mike
Jacubowsky who used to post here) and they are almost entirely a Trek
shop and would have any parts needed by Tom.


In my county, I go into the garage and install new BB30/90 bearings. It's a fifteen minute operation -- plus five for reinstalling the crank. Local pick-up of bearings at Universal Cycles https://www.universalcycles.com/visit_us.php

Universal and the other shops are doing pick-up and at-the-door business and in-shop repairs in a virus-free environment. The local Trek shop, Bike Gallery (six locations) is still doing service. https://www.bikegallery.com/articles...SAAEgLJHvD_BwE I could ride to the Lake Oswego store, leave my bike off and walk home through a forest. Over the home grown engineering marvel of the Terry Riley bridge. https://www.oregonhikers.org/w/image...leyBridge1.jpg It's a long walk and now filled with hacking, dying walkers.

It was another sunny day and it seemed like anyone with a bike was on the road. I did a gravel ride on my Norco with fatty gravel tires. It's like driving a truck -- I was rolling over the hills with my friend on the way home when we got passed by a woman . . . on a Trek supercommuter. The thing is a GD motorcycle. It was better than getting passed by skinny tire people on non-electric bikes. The mind-blowing event was that coming through the Portland State campus, they were still running the massive Saturday farmers market. WTF? What happened to the epidemic?

-- Jay Beattie.



  #9  
Old April 12th 20, 01:22 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default My Emonda and the Shop

On Saturday, April 11, 2020 at 4:23:41 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, April 11, 2020 at 9:54:19 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/11/2020 11:27 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Monday, April 6, 2020 at 8:09:58 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
Well, in an attempt to help a local shop by putting my new Trek Emonda in for some relatively minor work, I have been without it for a month now. I have been unable to get the shop so I assume that the owner either himself got sick or he has to attend to a family member such as his mother who is at risk.

Had I decided to do this work myself, I would have had to order the BB removal tool that comes with a set of BB press in tools as well. I would have had to pay through the nose for the wiring but I probably will anyway and there's no way I can get my new bike at the moment or make sure that the owner hasn't keeled over and I have to go to the courts to get my possessions.

The Madone 6.9 is going to need some small parts that are only available from Trek and their local shops of course are closed. So I'm hung up there as well.

This panic over a disease that has killed less that a quarter of what the seasonal flu has so far this year is really irritating. It will be interesting to see how history records this after some 4 or 5 years of reflection.

At least I have my Redline set up with Di2 and can practice the use of that. With so many years of Campy, changing gears was second nature and it is necessary to get that way with Di2.

My wife wants me to have at least one steel bike so that will be the Lemond and after I get the Emonda or Madone going I will change the Di2 over to it and convert the Redline to manual Ultegra with hydraulic disks. That means I will have to put the GRX levers up for sale since that is the only bike I have with disks. While I have come to admire the possible stopping power of the disks, I have never needed it before or after I got them and since I'm returning to aluminum rims that is all the stopping power necessary.

So the entire 6870 group will go onto the Lemond and I will have to purchase new levers for it.

They have a partial group of 7970 Di2 on the local craigslist for "make an offer". You could probably get that for dirt cheap. But they are not compatible with anything else and it doesn't include a rear derailleur. These are as rare as hen's teeth and you'd have to pay some bike shop in Japan over $500 for one so this local group wouldn't be worth more than $100. The front derailleur is pretty beat up on this one suggesting that it didn't have the "micro-adjust" nor the automatic correction for shifting across the cassette. But eBay has a lot of front derailleurs. Why do you suppose that they don't have any rear derailleurs unless they were as unreliable as possible?

I am really pleased with the operation of the 6870 group and I'm putting 9070 on the Madone since I picked up the parts cheap. The levers look new and weigh between nothing and lighter than air. I understand that the derailleurs have carbon fibers frames and are supposed to be "significantly lighter" than the Ultegra but if they are it isn't noticeable. You would probably have to actually weight them to tell the difference. That cages have to weight the same as the electronics and the motor drives.

The Dura Ace cassette us all hell and gone lighter than Ultegra but so is SROAD cassettes for half the price of Dura Ace.

My Dura Ace rear derailleur is a short arm so all I can shift is a 28 but that was all I could shift on the Campy so there's no difference. And with the much lighter Trek, it should be an improvement anyway.

The Dura Ace crankset is called "hollow cast" or something similar. The Ultegra crankset is the same without the arms hollowed out but it is so light already that the difference couldn't be a couple of ounces. Certainly it all adds up but there is also a cost to weight ratio that you have to consider. It isn't as if I'm racing.

One extremely interesting thing I got from a GCN video was that there was a rather marked difference in speed on a flat course between a superbike like the Treks and a steel classic but otherwise pretty high end bike. I really didn't expect that at all. Since it was a course without stop signs or lights there was no stop and go for the lighter weight to make a difference as it does on my course.

So after close to 6 or 7 years using carbon fiber components I have come to the conclusion that the only place that CF makes any significant difference is in the Frameset and components that are mass produced and hence can have expensive tooling like the Dura Ace levers and frame. Wheels are almost identical weight and you don't have to go through the stupid ordeal of using carbon brake pads and the less braking power (As far as I can tell the lifespan of either wheel used with rim brakes is pretty close). While the Campy carbon crankset looks like it should weight a lot it doesn't. FSA is heavier though it looks like it should be lighter. The entire Ultegra manual group probably weighs a lb more than the Dura Ace but would that really matter to you?

In retrospect I will probably keep the Colnago. It is build in a method that I believe to be safe an reliable. And there is a larger group that would buy the Lemond rather than a Taiwanese Colnago. But that all is in the future.

I finally contacted the shop that has my Emonda. He hadn't started on it because he was waiting for me to deliver the BB90 parts. He doesn't like to reuse bearings because he believes that knocking the old once out with that aluminum tool leaves particles of metal in the bearings. I suspect he is correct.

He had written my phone number down incorrectly so he couldn't contact my cell. And my land line is on light lines which apparently hides the owner of that phone number since they go through a different sort of interconnect. This means that when I would call, it would say, "Unknown" on the caller and he wouldn't answer it since we all get a million blank seller calls every day.

I called him a couple of days ago and left my land line so he called me yesterday and I went down and dropped off the new BB90 set. It has the dust covers and the BB95 washers in case those are necessary to keep the cranks from hitting in off-side chain stay as it appeared to do without dust covers.

The Madone not having been designed for Di2 will need some frame modifications but I have to wait until after the end of the month and I pay off the remainder of my bills to talk directly to the Trek shop to get their opinions.

There actually is exit holes for the front derailleur and rear derailleur wires but the battery wire for the external battery and the entrance hole for the stem unit connection are not present and although Trek told me that they make a special part that makes for these things, they didn't tell me what areas are strong enough to drill holes and paste them in with epoxy.

At another site they were showing the hollow DuraAce crankset broken in two lengthwise. It is plain to see that the cranks are made in two halves and probably welded together so improper welding can allow them to split lengthwise and actually break off.

I don't know if the Ultegra cranks are made in this manner but I don't think so. Although they are light, the DuraAce crankset has what looks like a hollow on the back of the crankarms which evidently is to stiffen the arms.

The aluminum bars and wheels I have are close replicas of the carbon fiber parts and they weigh slightly less. I don't need to have integrated bar/stem with the aluminum because they don't spin in the stem. Also the aluminum wheelset has a flat nipple bed and so has even spoke tension which NONE of the carbon wheels do. I can't even see how that would be possible with carbon without and EXTREMELY expensive construction process. Not only would you need a flat spoke bed which means using the Trek method of carbon fiber molding (which no one else uses) but you would have to have the wheels have the exact same strength (compression of the CF walls and then the tire bed) all the way around. While possible, I think that building the equipment for most of these tiny CF wheel manufacturers would be too expensive.

The result is that the aero aluminum wheels have an even spoke tension whereas the CF do not. This means that the wheels wander less requiring far less concentration on your steering and the consequence crashing if you look the wrong way at the wrong time.

The results of this is that I can change stem length without pulling the shifters off of the bar if I feel the need to. I also will have more reliable steering. This has been underscored by the fact that I have a set of Campagnolo Scirroco AL wheels that steer perfectly. And rather than paying a weight penalty I have parts that are actually very slightly lighter.

Is there an aero penalty? Possibly, but to tell you the truth I cannot tell the difference between the 35 mm disk wheels on my Redline and the 55 mm deep aero wheels on most of the rest of my bikes.



"doesn't like to reuse bearings because he believes that
knocking the old once out with that aluminum tool leaves
particles of metal in the bearings."

Interesting theory. Ask him if he thinks holy water or
burning incense might help since it seems well beyond
physics as we know it.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


Perhaps you'd like to explain to me why you believe this couldn't occur?

The tool is aluminum and the way it is used any one of the fingers can push around the seals on the bearings and ram against the ball bearing releasing particles. Let's remember that the way normal bearing wear out is by flaking bits of metal off of the ball or races under heavy loads which forms and abrasive grit that mixed with the "permanent" lubricant wears out the bearings.

While aluminum is too soft itself to cause abrasions of the steel it does form a layer on the surfaces which cause a jumping of the bearing and thus much more rapid wear. Bearings 101.


WTF tool is he using to remove the bearings that sloughs aluminum particles that somehow get behind the seals to ruin your steel bearings in what, four days before they would expire naturally? Have him get one of these: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQBJB5ZoKYw Personally I use Park tools and typically don't remove my bearings unless they are shot anyway, except on rare occasions when tracking down a creak that typically turns out to be something else like my rear dropout face. Bearing 202.

-- Jay Beattie.

  #10  
Old April 12th 20, 04:08 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default My Emonda and the Shop

On 4/11/2020 7:23 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, April 11, 2020 at 9:54:19 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/11/2020 11:27 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Monday, April 6, 2020 at 8:09:58 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
Well, in an attempt to help a local shop by putting my new Trek Emonda in for some relatively minor work, I have been without it for a month now. I have been unable to get the shop so I assume that the owner either himself got sick or he has to attend to a family member such as his mother who is at risk.

Had I decided to do this work myself, I would have had to order the BB removal tool that comes with a set of BB press in tools as well. I would have had to pay through the nose for the wiring but I probably will anyway and there's no way I can get my new bike at the moment or make sure that the owner hasn't keeled over and I have to go to the courts to get my possessions.

The Madone 6.9 is going to need some small parts that are only available from Trek and their local shops of course are closed. So I'm hung up there as well.

This panic over a disease that has killed less that a quarter of what the seasonal flu has so far this year is really irritating. It will be interesting to see how history records this after some 4 or 5 years of reflection.

At least I have my Redline set up with Di2 and can practice the use of that. With so many years of Campy, changing gears was second nature and it is necessary to get that way with Di2.

My wife wants me to have at least one steel bike so that will be the Lemond and after I get the Emonda or Madone going I will change the Di2 over to it and convert the Redline to manual Ultegra with hydraulic disks. That means I will have to put the GRX levers up for sale since that is the only bike I have with disks. While I have come to admire the possible stopping power of the disks, I have never needed it before or after I got them and since I'm returning to aluminum rims that is all the stopping power necessary.

So the entire 6870 group will go onto the Lemond and I will have to purchase new levers for it.

They have a partial group of 7970 Di2 on the local craigslist for "make an offer". You could probably get that for dirt cheap. But they are not compatible with anything else and it doesn't include a rear derailleur. These are as rare as hen's teeth and you'd have to pay some bike shop in Japan over $500 for one so this local group wouldn't be worth more than $100. The front derailleur is pretty beat up on this one suggesting that it didn't have the "micro-adjust" nor the automatic correction for shifting across the cassette. But eBay has a lot of front derailleurs. Why do you suppose that they don't have any rear derailleurs unless they were as unreliable as possible?

I am really pleased with the operation of the 6870 group and I'm putting 9070 on the Madone since I picked up the parts cheap. The levers look new and weigh between nothing and lighter than air. I understand that the derailleurs have carbon fibers frames and are supposed to be "significantly lighter" than the Ultegra but if they are it isn't noticeable. You would probably have to actually weight them to tell the difference. That cages have to weight the same as the electronics and the motor drives.

The Dura Ace cassette us all hell and gone lighter than Ultegra but so is SROAD cassettes for half the price of Dura Ace.

My Dura Ace rear derailleur is a short arm so all I can shift is a 28 but that was all I could shift on the Campy so there's no difference. And with the much lighter Trek, it should be an improvement anyway.

The Dura Ace crankset is called "hollow cast" or something similar. The Ultegra crankset is the same without the arms hollowed out but it is so light already that the difference couldn't be a couple of ounces. Certainly it all adds up but there is also a cost to weight ratio that you have to consider. It isn't as if I'm racing.

One extremely interesting thing I got from a GCN video was that there was a rather marked difference in speed on a flat course between a superbike like the Treks and a steel classic but otherwise pretty high end bike. I really didn't expect that at all. Since it was a course without stop signs or lights there was no stop and go for the lighter weight to make a difference as it does on my course.

So after close to 6 or 7 years using carbon fiber components I have come to the conclusion that the only place that CF makes any significant difference is in the Frameset and components that are mass produced and hence can have expensive tooling like the Dura Ace levers and frame. Wheels are almost identical weight and you don't have to go through the stupid ordeal of using carbon brake pads and the less braking power (As far as I can tell the lifespan of either wheel used with rim brakes is pretty close). While the Campy carbon crankset looks like it should weight a lot it doesn't. FSA is heavier though it looks like it should be lighter. The entire Ultegra manual group probably weighs a lb more than the Dura Ace but would that really matter to you?

In retrospect I will probably keep the Colnago. It is build in a method that I believe to be safe an reliable. And there is a larger group that would buy the Lemond rather than a Taiwanese Colnago. But that all is in the future.

I finally contacted the shop that has my Emonda. He hadn't started on it because he was waiting for me to deliver the BB90 parts. He doesn't like to reuse bearings because he believes that knocking the old once out with that aluminum tool leaves particles of metal in the bearings. I suspect he is correct.

He had written my phone number down incorrectly so he couldn't contact my cell. And my land line is on light lines which apparently hides the owner of that phone number since they go through a different sort of interconnect. This means that when I would call, it would say, "Unknown" on the caller and he wouldn't answer it since we all get a million blank seller calls every day.

I called him a couple of days ago and left my land line so he called me yesterday and I went down and dropped off the new BB90 set. It has the dust covers and the BB95 washers in case those are necessary to keep the cranks from hitting in off-side chain stay as it appeared to do without dust covers.

The Madone not having been designed for Di2 will need some frame modifications but I have to wait until after the end of the month and I pay off the remainder of my bills to talk directly to the Trek shop to get their opinions.

There actually is exit holes for the front derailleur and rear derailleur wires but the battery wire for the external battery and the entrance hole for the stem unit connection are not present and although Trek told me that they make a special part that makes for these things, they didn't tell me what areas are strong enough to drill holes and paste them in with epoxy.

At another site they were showing the hollow DuraAce crankset broken in two lengthwise. It is plain to see that the cranks are made in two halves and probably welded together so improper welding can allow them to split lengthwise and actually break off.

I don't know if the Ultegra cranks are made in this manner but I don't think so. Although they are light, the DuraAce crankset has what looks like a hollow on the back of the crankarms which evidently is to stiffen the arms.

The aluminum bars and wheels I have are close replicas of the carbon fiber parts and they weigh slightly less. I don't need to have integrated bar/stem with the aluminum because they don't spin in the stem. Also the aluminum wheelset has a flat nipple bed and so has even spoke tension which NONE of the carbon wheels do. I can't even see how that would be possible with carbon without and EXTREMELY expensive construction process. Not only would you need a flat spoke bed which means using the Trek method of carbon fiber molding (which no one else uses) but you would have to have the wheels have the exact same strength (compression of the CF walls and then the tire bed) all the way around. While possible, I think that building the equipment for most of these tiny CF wheel manufacturers would be too expensive.

The result is that the aero aluminum wheels have an even spoke tension whereas the CF do not. This means that the wheels wander less requiring far less concentration on your steering and the consequence crashing if you look the wrong way at the wrong time.

The results of this is that I can change stem length without pulling the shifters off of the bar if I feel the need to. I also will have more reliable steering. This has been underscored by the fact that I have a set of Campagnolo Scirroco AL wheels that steer perfectly. And rather than paying a weight penalty I have parts that are actually very slightly lighter.

Is there an aero penalty? Possibly, but to tell you the truth I cannot tell the difference between the 35 mm disk wheels on my Redline and the 55 mm deep aero wheels on most of the rest of my bikes.



"doesn't like to reuse bearings because he believes that
knocking the old once out with that aluminum tool leaves
particles of metal in the bearings."

Interesting theory. Ask him if he thinks holy water or
burning incense might help since it seems well beyond
physics as we know it.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


Perhaps you'd like to explain to me why you believe this couldn't occur?

The tool is aluminum and the way it is used any one of the fingers can push around the seals on the bearings and ram against the ball bearing releasing particles. Let's remember that the way normal bearing wear out is by flaking bits of metal off of the ball or races under heavy loads which forms and abrasive grit that mixed with the "permanent" lubricant wears out the bearings.

While aluminum is too soft itself to cause abrasions of the steel it does form a layer on the surfaces which cause a jumping of the bearing and thus much more rapid wear. Bearings 101.


Tom, you just flunked Bearings 101.

AISI 52100 has a hardness north of 60 Rc. No aluminum tool used in any
normal way is going to do what you claim. Heck, it won't even do it if
used in any abnormal way.

Look up hardness tests - for example, the Brinell test. To measure the
hardness of aluminum, they push a steel bearing ball into the surface.
They then measure the dent in the aluminum. The ball is re-used
indefinitely.

--
- Frank Krygowski
 




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