Concerning commuting by bike

Am Thu, 25 Jun 2020 08:45:10 +0700 schrieb John B.
:

On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 21:30:27 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:


It's my understanding that Idaho's law (bikes need only yield at stop
signs) actually adds safety. It's a bit tricky to lobby for that law,
though. Many politicians see it as a pathway to anarchy.

I suspect that not requiring cyclists to stop at stop signs and red
lights will probably encourage a certain percentage of riders to
believe that they never need to stop at all and will likely increase
bicycle accidents.

Thats the textbook argument. I don't buy it. There already is a
certain percentage of riders who do so, whatever the actual rule say.
The majority of these people just continue the behaviour they trained
for on segregated bicycle facilities, where chaos reigns. A better
rule, which isn't as obviously made for cars at least has the advantage
of being better explainable.


--
Wir danken für die Beachtung aller Sicherheitsbestimmungen

On Thursday, June 25, 2020 at 8:53:04 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/25/2020 12:08 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, June 24, 2020 at 6:30:30 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/24/2020 7:19 PM, jbeattie wrote:


BTW, my mandatory commute is only five miles. Longer distances on the way home are elective. I work with a guy who is overweight by any measure, and he commutes 12 miles each way every day. He's in his 50s. A lot of his commute is on a rail-trail. BTW, he switched to a disk bike because he was grinding up rims every few years.

Russell's comment on that brought up a good point, rail trails shouldn't
require much braking at all. Is the rest of the guy's commute super steep?

Some rollers but mostly flat, but the guy has to be 250-300lbs. He told me he was going through rims every two years or so. He doesn't have any reason to make it up or prove any point. He's not doing guerrilla marketing for disc brakes.

Speaking of law enforcement, it works both ways: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azFUWiI2yA0

I'm curious: That was 8 years ago. What's happened since with
enforcement, and with bicyclist behavior?

The law changed, for one thing. https://bikeportland.org/2019/06/25/...-yields-301829 I've been blowing stop signs since the beginning of the year.

Cool! I'll be interested in safety data, once it's available.

It's my understanding that Idaho's law (bikes need only yield at stop
signs) actually adds safety. It's a bit tricky to lobby for that law,
though. Many politicians see it as a pathway to anarchy.

We do anarchy. We can also pass on the right and blow stop lights if they don't change, which was new last year, IIRC. I don't think I've stopped for anything in almost a year.

We got an exemption for non-changing red lights a couple of years ago. I
was one of the crew behind that change.

BTW, I sort of agree with Joy, that motorists do "Idaho stops" all the
time. I can watch a stop sign outside my windoe, and I've counted that
50% of motorists don't do full stops. I've done my not-quite-full stop
in front of a cop car at a congested four way stop intersection plus
other intersections and had no reaction.

If it weren't for occasional unreasonable hassles and crackdowns, I'd
say the law is fine as it is. So changing it here might be nice, but
it's low priority.

BTW, I'm just kidding about not stopping -- and all the law changes make no difference at functioning lights and busy intersections. Right of way still applies -- and near downtown, it becomes a f***** negotiation with people who think they're being nice. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aIfarMPmPQ

They can be in their cars flagging me through, and I can't see them because of the blacked out windows. I wish cars would just act like cars. And its binary -- they're too nice or ass*****. Its the minority of cars that just act like cars.


-- Jay Beattie.

On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 10:21:46 -0700 (PDT),
jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, June 25, 2020 at 8:53:04 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:

BTW, I sort of agree with Joy, that motorists do "Idaho stops"
all the time. I can watch a stop sign outside my windoe, and
I've counted that 50% of motorists don't do full stops. I've
done my not-quite-full stop in front of a cop car at a
congested four way stop intersection plus other intersections
and had no reaction.

BTW, I'm just kidding about not stopping -- and all the law
changes make no difference at functioning lights and busy
intersections. Right of way still applies -- and near downtown,
it becomes a f***** negotiation with people who think they're
being nice. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aIfarMPmPQ

They can be in their cars flagging me through, and I can't see
them because of the blacked out windows. I wish cars would
just act like cars. And its binary -- they're too nice or
ass*****. Its the minority of cars that just act like cars.

+1

And then there's the motorist waving you ahead, while failing to
recognize there are other moving vehicles that prevent proceeding
safely.

--
Ted Heise West Lafayette, IN, USA

On Thursday, June 25, 2020 at 10:29:16 AM UTC-7, Ted Heise wrote:
On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 10:21:46 -0700 (PDT),
jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, June 25, 2020 at 8:53:04 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:

BTW, I sort of agree with Joy, that motorists do "Idaho stops"
all the time. I can watch a stop sign outside my windoe, and
I've counted that 50% of motorists don't do full stops. I've
done my not-quite-full stop in front of a cop car at a
congested four way stop intersection plus other intersections
and had no reaction.

BTW, I'm just kidding about not stopping -- and all the law
changes make no difference at functioning lights and busy
intersections. Right of way still applies -- and near downtown,
it becomes a f***** negotiation with people who think they're
being nice. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aIfarMPmPQ

They can be in their cars flagging me through, and I can't see
them because of the blacked out windows. I wish cars would
just act like cars. And its binary -- they're too nice or
ass*****. Its the minority of cars that just act like cars.

+1

And then there's the motorist waving you ahead, while failing to
recognize there are other moving vehicles that prevent proceeding
safely.

That irritates the hell out of me. The traffic laws are pretty clear and breaking them to be "nice" just endangers everyone. Though how much of this is due to kids improperly riding on the streets I don't know.

On 6/25/2020 1:04 PM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
Am Thu, 25 Jun 2020 08:45:10 +0700 schrieb John B.
:

On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 21:30:27 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:


It's my understanding that Idaho's law (bikes need only yield at stop
signs) actually adds safety. It's a bit tricky to lobby for that law,
though. Many politicians see it as a pathway to anarchy.

I suspect that not requiring cyclists to stop at stop signs and red
lights will probably encourage a certain percentage of riders to
believe that they never need to stop at all and will likely increase
bicycle accidents.

Thats the textbook argument. I don't buy it. There already is a
certain percentage of riders who do so, whatever the actual rule say.
The majority of these people just continue the behaviour they trained
for on segregated bicycle facilities, where chaos reigns. A better
rule, which isn't as obviously made for cars at least has the advantage
of being better explainable.

At the start of today's ride, I came to a four way stop sign just ahead
of a car to my right. I could have done a quick quasi-stop, but my wife
and our friend were a bit behind me, so instead I put my foot down and
waved a motorist through. He waved a thank you.

I hadn't noticed that not far behind him was one of our village cops!
I'm sure he saw the whole thing, and I'm sure it enhanced my reputation
for competence.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 6/25/2020 1:21 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, June 25, 2020 at 8:53:04 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/25/2020 12:08 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, June 24, 2020 at 6:30:30 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/24/2020 7:19 PM, jbeattie wrote:


BTW, my mandatory commute is only five miles. Longer distances on the way home are elective. I work with a guy who is overweight by any measure, and he commutes 12 miles each way every day. He's in his 50s. A lot of his commute is on a rail-trail. BTW, he switched to a disk bike because he was grinding up rims every few years.

Russell's comment on that brought up a good point, rail trails shouldn't
require much braking at all. Is the rest of the guy's commute super steep?

Some rollers but mostly flat, but the guy has to be 250-300lbs. He told me he was going through rims every two years or so. He doesn't have any reason to make it up or prove any point. He's not doing guerrilla marketing for disc brakes.

Speaking of law enforcement, it works both ways: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azFUWiI2yA0

I'm curious: That was 8 years ago. What's happened since with
enforcement, and with bicyclist behavior?

The law changed, for one thing. https://bikeportland.org/2019/06/25/...-yields-301829 I've been blowing stop signs since the beginning of the year.

Cool! I'll be interested in safety data, once it's available.

It's my understanding that Idaho's law (bikes need only yield at stop
signs) actually adds safety. It's a bit tricky to lobby for that law,
though. Many politicians see it as a pathway to anarchy.

We do anarchy. We can also pass on the right and blow stop lights if they don't change, which was new last year, IIRC. I don't think I've stopped for anything in almost a year.

We got an exemption for non-changing red lights a couple of years ago. I
was one of the crew behind that change.

BTW, I sort of agree with Joy, that motorists do "Idaho stops" all the
time. I can watch a stop sign outside my windoe, and I've counted that
50% of motorists don't do full stops. I've done my not-quite-full stop
in front of a cop car at a congested four way stop intersection plus
other intersections and had no reaction.

If it weren't for occasional unreasonable hassles and crackdowns, I'd
say the law is fine as it is. So changing it here might be nice, but
it's low priority.

BTW, I'm just kidding about not stopping -- and all the law changes make no difference at functioning lights and busy intersections. Right of way still applies -- and near downtown, it becomes a f***** negotiation with people who think they're being nice. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aIfarMPmPQ

They can be in their cars flagging me through, and I can't see them because of the blacked out windows. I wish cars would just act like cars. And its binary -- they're too nice or ass*****. Its the minority of cars that just act like cars.

Yeah, we had two of those today.

We also had a traffic light that refused to change, despite three bikes
being accurately placed on the detector loop. The pickup driver behind
us just wanted to do a right turn on red, but couldn't because of us. I
finally gave a big hands-out "Oh well!" and we rode through when the
four lane was clear.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On Thursday, June 25, 2020 at 6:11:39 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/25/2020 1:04 PM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
Am Thu, 25 Jun 2020 08:45:10 +0700 schrieb John B.
:

On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 21:30:27 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:


It's my understanding that Idaho's law (bikes need only yield at stop
signs) actually adds safety. It's a bit tricky to lobby for that law,
though. Many politicians see it as a pathway to anarchy.

I suspect that not requiring cyclists to stop at stop signs and red
lights will probably encourage a certain percentage of riders to
believe that they never need to stop at all and will likely increase
bicycle accidents.

Thats the textbook argument. I don't buy it. There already is a
certain percentage of riders who do so, whatever the actual rule say.
The majority of these people just continue the behaviour they trained
for on segregated bicycle facilities, where chaos reigns. A better
rule, which isn't as obviously made for cars at least has the advantage
of being better explainable.

At the start of today's ride, I came to a four way stop sign just ahead
of a car to my right. I could have done a quick quasi-stop, but my wife
and our friend were a bit behind me, so instead I put my foot down and
waved a motorist through. He waved a thank you.

I hadn't noticed that not far behind him was one of our village cops!
I'm sure he saw the whole thing, and I'm sure it enhanced my reputation
for competence.

Exactly how do you enhance zero?

On Wednesday, June 24, 2020 at 7:39:46 PM UTC+1, wrote:
In the local craigslist I have been sort of surprised at the numbers of e-bikes that have been turning up. I think that people with good intentions have bought these things as commuters and then discovered to their dismay that distance and not effort is the real problem. People do not want to spend a hour in the morning and an hour in the evening doing physical efforts to get to or back from their place of employment.

Both distance and effort are a problem. There is an additional problem that arises because most of these wannabe ebikers never had a bike before, and so have no concept of tending to the bike.

I get stopped or approached when I'm stopped by people who've seen my bike in action for ten years. Some of them want to buy it. They're the ones who have bought electric bikes already and been disappointed, and they think mine is better. It is, infinitely better because I designed it to work as I want it to work rather than as some fatarse German legislator wants it to work, but I know they won't go any better with mine than they did with theirs.. They bought pedelecs, usually perfectly good ones for substantial money. They're not commuters; they bought the bikes for exercise. It's important that most of them have never had a bike before, or if they had, rode it a handful of times and then parked it in the garage for good; they have no history of servicing their bikes either. With electric bikes they run into two devastating problems. They use the bikes like they're electric motorbikes, pedalling as little as possible. The fact that their bikes are pedelecs that will pass the German regulations is disastrous for them. The countryside here is hilly, and pedelecs are designed to produce input proportional to what the rider puts in through the pedals. So, going uphill, the rider is required to put in more and more effort just to keep progressing slower and slower; and these people aren't too hot on the gears either. This is, of course, arse about end: the electric bike should be set up, or have a facility (a throttle, say), to adjust the electrical input on hills to be a larger than even proportion of the total, so helping the cyclist out. Pedelecs from Germany (and Taiwan, for the same European market) don't have such facilities. So these people are suddenly given more exercise than they want. They call a car to take them home from wherever the battery ran out or they gave up, and park the bike in the garage for good. They see me on the road (from their cars) much further than they ever ventured on their bikes and want to know how I do it. I do it by having a bigger battery than any two of them together, and by building my own electric bike after careful thought of what was required, so that the pedelec shortcomings don't affect me, and of course I grasp that I must pedal, not just pretend I'm exercising. Even if they keep up riding, staying much nearer home, something else that goes wrong for most of them is the battery. "The battery lasted only three months! And it's offing expensive!" is a common refrain. How many batteries have I bought? Only the one I still have. They don't believe this. They rode those batteries until they were absolutely flat, time and again. I explain that by contrast, even if I've ridden only to the shops and back, call it a couple of miles, I recharge the battery. No matter how far they've seen me into the countryside, I return home with more than half the charge still in the battery. "No, no, I don't want the bother," one told me. I didn't tell him that until he grasps how fragile a LiPo battery is, and learns to care for it, he'd better stay out of electric bikes. Those people are exercising because they've been ordered to by their wives or their doctors, they aren't cyclists, they haven't informed themselves about ebikes, or electrics on bikes, or batteries, or even simple accessories like a heart rate monitor. One waited for me in supermarket car park: he wore the fancy heart rate watch on his arm because it looked like a watch and was looking in bafflement at the handlebar mounting with the chest belt in his hand, trying to work out how the chest belt would tie the mounting onto the handlebars. "Read the ****ing manual," I said to him. "No need for obscenity," he said. "This time I'm taking it seriously. I'm not wasting your time." His bike stands in his garage... The only people I know who have successfully switched over to ebikes are people who switched over from being cyclists on pedal-only bikes, who understand that the bike and its components need tending, who have a history of *pedalling*, and who read up on LiPo batteries.

Andre Jute
RTFM

On Saturday, June 27, 2020 at 9:42:58 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Wednesday, June 24, 2020 at 7:39:46 PM UTC+1, wrote:
In the local craigslist I have been sort of surprised at the numbers of e-bikes that have been turning up. I think that people with good intentions have bought these things as commuters and then discovered to their dismay that distance and not effort is the real problem. People do not want to spend a hour in the morning and an hour in the evening doing physical efforts to get to or back from their place of employment.

Both distance and effort are a problem. There is an additional problem that arises because most of these wannabe ebikers never had a bike before, and so have no concept of tending to the bike.


I have obtained most of my bikes from those people who perhaps rode a single time and then placed the bike in the garage to gather inches of dust. It is pretty amazing what great deals you can get if you're willing to watch and wait.
I get stopped or approached when I'm stopped by people who've seen my bike in action for ten years. Some of them want to buy it. They're the ones who have bought electric bikes already and been disappointed, and they think mine is better. It is, infinitely better because I designed it to work as I want it to work rather than as some fatarse German legislator wants it to work, but I know they won't go any better with mine than they did with theirs. They bought pedelecs, usually perfectly good ones for substantial money.. They're not commuters; they bought the bikes for exercise. It's important that most of them have never had a bike before, or if they had, rode it a handful of times and then parked it in the garage for good; they have no history of servicing their bikes either. With electric bikes they run into two devastating problems. They use the bikes like they're electric motorbikes, pedalling as little as possible. The fact that their bikes are pedelecs that will pass the German regulations is disastrous for them. The countryside here is hilly, and pedelecs are designed to produce input proportional to what the rider puts in through the pedals. So, going uphill, the rider is required to put in more and more effort just to keep progressing slower and slower; and these people aren't too hot on the gears either. This is, of course, arse about end: the electric bike should be set up, or have a facility (a throttle, say), to adjust the electrical input on hills to be a larger than even proportion of the total, so helping the cyclist out. Pedelecs from Germany (and Taiwan, for the same European market) don't have such facilities. So these people are suddenly given more exercise than they want. They call a car to take them home from wherever the battery ran out or they gave up, and park the bike in the garage for good. They see me on the road (from their cars) much further than they ever ventured on their bikes and want to know how I do it. I do it by having a bigger battery than any two of them together, and by building my own electric bike after careful thought of what was required, so that the pedelec shortcomings don't affect me, and of course I grasp that I must pedal, not just pretend I'm exercising. Even if they keep up riding, staying much nearer home, something else that goes wrong for most of them is the battery. "The battery lasted only three months! And it's offing expensive!" is a common refrain. How many batteries have I bought? Only the one I still have. They don't believe this. They rode those batteries until they were absolutely flat, time and again. I explain that by contrast, even if I've ridden only to the shops and back, call it a couple of miles, I recharge the battery. No matter how far they've seen me into the countryside, I return home with more than half the charge still in the battery. "No, no, I don't want the bother," one told me. I didn't tell him that until he grasps how fragile a LiPo battery is, and learns to care for it, he'd better stay out of electric bikes. Those people are exercising because they've been ordered to by their wives or their doctors, they aren't cyclists, they haven't informed themselves about ebikes, or electrics on bikes, or batteries, or even simple accessories like a heart rate monitor. One waited for me in supermarket car park: he wore the fancy heart rate watch on his arm because it looked like a watch and was looking in bafflement at the handlebar mounting with the chest belt in his hand, trying to work out how the chest belt would tie the mounting onto the handlebars. "Read the ****ing manual," I said to him. "No need for obscenity," he said. "This time I'm taking it seriously. I'm not wasting your time." His bike stands in his garage... The only people I know who have successfully switched over to ebikes are people who switched over from being cyclists on pedal-only bikes, who understand that the bike and its components need tending, who have a history of *pedalling*, and who read up on LiPo batteries.

Andre Jute
RTFM

Am Thu, 25 Jun 2020 21:11:35 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski
:

On 6/25/2020 1:04 PM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
Am Thu, 25 Jun 2020 08:45:10 +0700 schrieb John B.
:

On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 21:30:27 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:


It's my understanding that Idaho's law (bikes need only yield at stop
signs) actually adds safety. It's a bit tricky to lobby for that law,
though. Many politicians see it as a pathway to anarchy.

I suspect that not requiring cyclists to stop at stop signs and red
lights will probably encourage a certain percentage of riders to
believe that they never need to stop at all and will likely increase
bicycle accidents.

Thats the textbook argument. I don't buy it. There already is a
certain percentage of riders who do so, whatever the actual rule say.
The majority of these people just continue the behaviour they trained
for on segregated bicycle facilities, where chaos reigns. A better
rule, which isn't as obviously made for cars at least has the advantage
of being better explainable.

At the start of today's ride, I came to a four way stop sign just ahead
of a car to my right. I could have done a quick quasi-stop, but my wife
and our friend were a bit behind me, so instead I put my foot down and
waved a motorist through. He waved a thank you.

I hadn't noticed that not far behind him was one of our village cops!
I'm sure he saw the whole thing, and I'm sure it enhanced my reputation
for competence.

So?

--
Wir danken für die Beachtung aller Sicherheitsbestimmungen