Rider responsibility on trails?

Eric S. Sande wrote:

Okay, this one's been gnawing at me.


Thank goodness for another muddled case.

The following vehicle was at fault. The only possible defense he
would have is that you were not using an active tail light (if one
is required in your jurisdiction).
Only a headlight is required, but I agree that tail lights work really well.

However "I can't believe you did that," argues that he was aware
that you were there.

If not required, was the following cyclist using a headlight, if
required.
He didn't have a headlight.

Did you execute a signal (not a big point, but if I were the defense
I would raise it).
Nope. Definitely my bad. I should switch my brakes so my front brake
lever is on my right, and I'd be more inclined to signal while
controlling the bike.

Generally speaking, IMHO, following too closely gets the big yawn,
because the duty of the person behind you is to exercise due care
and diligence in operation of a vehicle.

As I understand traffic law.

Yes, legally, but this mishap I think teaches me I need to be more aware
even when no one appears to be around.

Muttley wrote:

On Mon, 06 Sep 2004 05:12:13 GMT, Collin wrote:


Okay, this one's been gnawing at me. Friday night I was hit by a
bicyclist while riding my bike on a bike/pedestrian trail. It was night,
there were street lamps, traffic was light, I had a front light and rear
reflectors, and noone had passe dme for about three miles. Riding
about 13 mph, looked to my left and saw a turnoff I should have taken.
With no oncoming traffic, I braked and swung to the left...


What I don't understand is how the hell you were still in his way after his
reaction time, and "Oh hell ...".

That implies to me a good 3-4 seconds, in which time he should have been able to
gently steer right and pass you without incident.
I think he was trying to pass me on the left. I agree if I had that
much time I would have been able to turn left hard or slide by on the
right. He probably had less time than 3 seconds, though. Maybe his
brakes weren't up to par.

How wide was the trail?

Eight or nine feet, bisected by a yellow line.

Muttley wrote:

On Mon, 06 Sep 2004 05:12:13 GMT, Collin wrote:


Okay, this one's been gnawing at me. Friday night I was hit by a
bicyclist while riding my bike on a bike/pedestrian trail. It was night,
there were street lamps, traffic was light, I had a front light and rear
reflectors, and noone had passe dme for about three miles. Riding
about 13 mph, looked to my left and saw a turnoff I should have taken.
With no oncoming traffic, I braked and swung to the left...


What I don't understand is how the hell you were still in his way after his
reaction time, and "Oh hell ...".

That implies to me a good 3-4 seconds, in which time he should have been able to
gently steer right and pass you without incident.
I think he was trying to pass me on the left. I agree if I had that
much time I would have been able to turn left hard or slide by on the
right. He probably had less time than 3 seconds, though. Maybe his
brakes weren't up to par.

How wide was the trail?

Eight or nine feet, bisected by a yellow line.

Collin wrote:
:: Frederic Briere wrote:
::: Collin wrote:
:::
:::: about 13 mph, looked to my left and saw a turnoff I should have
:::: taken. With no oncoming traffic, I braked and swung to the left...
:::
:::
:::: Then I thought about it for a moment. Isn't it your responsibility
:::: to read the road in front of you? If we were cars, he would have
:::: been guilty. No doubts at all. What about a bike path? He had
:::: no lights,
:::
:::
::: Maybe I missed something, but are you saying that if you were
::: driving a car on the roadway, it would be perfectly okay to stop
::: and turn without any warning, and without looking back?
::
:: It would have been different in a car, which is why I was interested
:: in getting everyone's opinion. 1) Brake lights on cars give the
:: following driver a warning. Bikes don't. 2) At least California and
:: Illinois vehicle code place the responsibility on the following
:: driver unless the leading driver intentionally causes and accident.
:: 3) Yes, if I was driving, I would have looked back. This is
:: definitely something I should have done. I was careless.'

If it were dark enough, on an unlit trail, and if he didn't have a
headlight, you might not have seen him even if you looked back. Obviously,
there was enough light from some source that he could ride with headlights.
Or perhaps he was on your tail because YOU had a light source....


::
:::
::: I'm not playing the blame game -- just pointing out that I don't
::: understand your argument. What was the other cyclist supposed to
::: "read", anyway?
:::
::
:: Good question. If I saw someone in front of me brake I would have
:: considered a change in direction. But maybe not. And, if I had no
:: lights, I might not detect the braking. After seeing enough erratic
:: behavior of people on trails, I've learned to give myself enough
:: distance to react to most possibilities. That's why I'm always
:: impressed by bicyclists who run red lights with cross-traffic. They
:: leave themselves no margin. The same applies to driving. I think most
:: people leave themselves a margin for error when they're driving.

Collin wrote:
:: Frederic Briere wrote:
::: Collin wrote:
:::
:::: about 13 mph, looked to my left and saw a turnoff I should have
:::: taken. With no oncoming traffic, I braked and swung to the left...
:::
:::
:::: Then I thought about it for a moment. Isn't it your responsibility
:::: to read the road in front of you? If we were cars, he would have
:::: been guilty. No doubts at all. What about a bike path? He had
:::: no lights,
:::
:::
::: Maybe I missed something, but are you saying that if you were
::: driving a car on the roadway, it would be perfectly okay to stop
::: and turn without any warning, and without looking back?
::
:: It would have been different in a car, which is why I was interested
:: in getting everyone's opinion. 1) Brake lights on cars give the
:: following driver a warning. Bikes don't. 2) At least California and
:: Illinois vehicle code place the responsibility on the following
:: driver unless the leading driver intentionally causes and accident.
:: 3) Yes, if I was driving, I would have looked back. This is
:: definitely something I should have done. I was careless.'

If it were dark enough, on an unlit trail, and if he didn't have a
headlight, you might not have seen him even if you looked back. Obviously,
there was enough light from some source that he could ride with headlights.
Or perhaps he was on your tail because YOU had a light source....


::
:::
::: I'm not playing the blame game -- just pointing out that I don't
::: understand your argument. What was the other cyclist supposed to
::: "read", anyway?
:::
::
:: Good question. If I saw someone in front of me brake I would have
:: considered a change in direction. But maybe not. And, if I had no
:: lights, I might not detect the braking. After seeing enough erratic
:: behavior of people on trails, I've learned to give myself enough
:: distance to react to most possibilities. That's why I'm always
:: impressed by bicyclists who run red lights with cross-traffic. They
:: leave themselves no margin. The same applies to driving. I think most
:: people leave themselves a margin for error when they're driving.

"Frederic Briere" wrote in message
...
Maybe I missed something, but are you saying that if you were driving a
car on the roadway, it would be perfectly okay to stop and turn without
any warning, and without looking back?
If you are following too close to avoid a collision if the person
in front of you suddenly stops, you are at fault. Vehicles can
have unexpected mechanical failures at any time. If this
were to cause the vehicle to suddenly stop, you have to
be far enough back to allow for your reaction time in any
event.

"Frederic Briere" wrote in message
...
Maybe I missed something, but are you saying that if you were driving a
car on the roadway, it would be perfectly okay to stop and turn without
any warning, and without looking back?
If you are following too close to avoid a collision if the person
in front of you suddenly stops, you are at fault. Vehicles can
have unexpected mechanical failures at any time. If this
were to cause the vehicle to suddenly stop, you have to
be far enough back to allow for your reaction time in any
event.

You were going about 13 mph, straight ahead. He was going 13 mph (or so)
right behind you. There is no indication he was planning to pass you, so no
reason to call out. Suddenly, you decelerated and turned left, effectively
blocking his way. The fact that his mouth kicked in faster than his brakes
contributed to the accident, but I think you should have both learned from
this.

1.) Even on what seems to be a deserted trail, someone may be behind you.
Bicycles are very quiet.
2.) A rider who appears to have no intention to turn or stop may suddenly
become an obstacle.

How many times have you come up behind another rider and followed smoothly,
with no incident? In many or most cases the rider in front may not have
been aware of your presence. The fact that this happens a lot, and seldom
causes a problem makes us gradually become less alert to the possibility
that the unexpected could occur.

I recall an occasion when I was riding, completely alone on a remote paved
trail. Hadn't seen anyone for, maybe, a half hour. I decided to turn
around and go back, and I turned across the trail and stopped. Almost got
broadsided by another rider who had come up behind me. You can never be
completely sure of anything.

You were going about 13 mph, straight ahead. He was going 13 mph (or so)
right behind you. There is no indication he was planning to pass you, so no
reason to call out. Suddenly, you decelerated and turned left, effectively
blocking his way. The fact that his mouth kicked in faster than his brakes
contributed to the accident, but I think you should have both learned from
this.

1.) Even on what seems to be a deserted trail, someone may be behind you.
Bicycles are very quiet.
2.) A rider who appears to have no intention to turn or stop may suddenly
become an obstacle.

How many times have you come up behind another rider and followed smoothly,
with no incident? In many or most cases the rider in front may not have
been aware of your presence. The fact that this happens a lot, and seldom
causes a problem makes us gradually become less alert to the possibility
that the unexpected could occur.

I recall an occasion when I was riding, completely alone on a remote paved
trail. Hadn't seen anyone for, maybe, a half hour. I decided to turn
around and go back, and I turned across the trail and stopped. Almost got
broadsided by another rider who had come up behind me. You can never be
completely sure of anything.

Leo Lichtman wrote:
|| You were going about 13 mph, straight ahead. He was going 13 mph
|| (or so) right behind you. There is no indication he was planning to
|| pass you, so no reason to call out. Suddenly, you decelerated and
|| turned left, effectively blocking his way. The fact that his mouth
|| kicked in faster than his brakes contributed to the accident, but I
|| think you should have both learned from this.
||
|| 1.) Even on what seems to be a deserted trail, someone may be
|| behind you. Bicycles are very quiet.
|| 2.) A rider who appears to have no intention to turn or stop may
|| suddenly become an obstacle.
||
|| How many times have you come up behind another rider and followed
|| smoothly, with no incident? In many or most cases the rider in
|| front may not have been aware of your presence. The fact that this
|| happens a lot, and seldom causes a problem makes us gradually become
|| less alert to the possibility that the unexpected could occur.
||
|| I recall an occasion when I was riding, completely alone on a remote
|| paved trail. Hadn't seen anyone for, maybe, a half hour. I decided
|| to turn around and go back, and I turned across the trail and
|| stopped. Almost got broadsided by another rider who had come up
|| behind me. You can never be completely sure of anything.

This happened to me this past Saturday. I was out for my usual ride. I had
just completed a hill that had me a little winded, so I was resting a
bit....after a while (I must have fallen asleep) some guy passes me. The
dude had on a coat and ankle weights - this is in SC in September - it is by
no means cool. Anyway, while he pulls away, I start thinking: that dude has
a coat on and is wearing ankle weights - and is pulling away from me. That
woke me up, so I start hauling ass to catch him. I did so, but decided to
just sit on his tail for a few moments. After a while, we were going
uphill. He was moving too slowly now, so I decided to pass him no the left.
So I yelled out "On your left". As I zoomed by he was startled because he
thought he had smoked me. But he didn't even know I was on his tail. Of
course, he was wearing headphones, too.