A Cycling & bikes forum. CycleBanter.com

Go Back   Home » CycleBanter.com forum » rec.bicycles » Techniques
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Comparison of Auminium, Steel and Carbon forks?



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old April 19th 08, 05:44 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,673
Default Comparison of Auminium, Steel and Carbon forks?

On Apr 18, 8:41 pm, jim beam wrote:
blackhead wrote:
Are there any impartial tests that have been done on Auminium, Steel
and Carbon forks? Some people say carbon absorbs vibration better than
steel and Aluminium, others say it makes little difference... etc etc


the best "impartial" test you can do is ride them yourself and compare.
not something some people with mere opinions are prone to do.


The best impartial test would be to take a given bike, and install
various forks of identical geometry. Keep everything else exactly the
same. Have several riders (say, at least five) ride the bike with
each fork, and report on their impressions.

BUT you must mix the order in which the forks are tested, and most
important, you must cover the forks so the test is blind. Otherwise
the rider will be swayed by his preconceptions.

The placebo effect is powerful. Any test that hopes to remove bias,
but relies on people's perceptions, has to account for the placebo
effect and disable it as much as possible.

- Frank Krygowski
Ads
  #22  
Old April 19th 08, 07:05 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Dan O
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,098
Default Comparison of Auminium, Steel and Carbon forks?

On Apr 19, 6:48 am, Mike Rocket J Squirrel
wrote:
On 4/19/2008 6:31 AM wrote:



On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 13:58:51 -0800, agcou wrote:


On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 19:55:23 -0400,
wrote:

On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 15:23:53 -0700 (PDT), blackhead
wrote:


Are there any impartial tests that have been done on Auminium, Steel
and Carbon forks? Some people say carbon absorbs vibration better than
steel and Aluminium, others say it makes little difference... etc etc
The differences of design, materials quality and manufacture are greater than
the differences in the materials themselves. Even in weight there is an
intersection between the three. I've got bikes with all three and they've all
got something going for them.


Really depends on what you're doing with the bike and which forks you're
choosing from.
Did you read the OP's question?


Yeah, there are no impartial tests that establish the relative characteristics
of forks made from different materials. Such a test would have to hold all other
variables constant in a way that simply isn't possible.


How come? Not arguing, just curious. Seems (to me, not a mechanical
engineer nor wrench) that one could get three forks with same geometry,
tilt at proper head tube angle, clamp dropouts to shaker table, add mass
loading from above, hang some accelerometers on the stem and let 'er rip.
Just to see, y'know?


I've only ever ridden steel (and some of that plenty cheesy), but it
seems to me the problem with this kind of test is that the chosen
"geometry, tilt, load, etc." - not to mention thickness, etc. - might
favor one material over another, and may or may not be suitable
parameters for a given bike, rider, and purpose. And then the matter
of translating measured results into characteristics favorable for
riding on... And then it also occurs to me that a shaker table is
quite a different thing than a bicycle wheel.

This kind of testing might be okay for a big manufacturer's R&D
(although there goes "impartial" out the window if the marketing dept
has any influence ;-), but for choosing what to ride on, the proof is
(always) in the pudding.


  #23  
Old April 19th 08, 07:43 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Michael Press
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,202
Default Comparison of Auminium, Steel and Carbon forks?

In article ,
Mike Rocket J Squirrel wrote:

On 4/19/2008 6:31 AM wrote:

On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 13:58:51 -0800, agcou wrote:

On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 19:55:23 -0400,
wrote:

On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 15:23:53 -0700 (PDT), blackhead
wrote:

Are there any impartial tests that have been done on Auminium, Steel
and Carbon forks? Some people say carbon absorbs vibration better than
steel and Aluminium, others say it makes little difference... etc etc
The differences of design, materials quality and manufacture are greater than
the differences in the materials themselves. Even in weight there is an
intersection between the three. I've got bikes with all three and they've all
got something going for them.

Really depends on what you're doing with the bike and which forks you're
choosing from.
Did you read the OP's question?


Yeah, there are no impartial tests that establish the relative characteristics
of forks made from different materials. Such a test would have to hold all other
variables constant in a way that simply isn't possible.


How come? Not arguing, just curious. Seems (to me, not a mechanical
engineer nor wrench) that one could get three forks with same geometry,
tilt at proper head tube angle, clamp dropouts to shaker table, add mass
loading from above, hang some accelerometers on the stem and let 'er rip.
Just to see, y'know?


Let me know when carbon fibre forks are made in this geometry,
or Al for that matter.
http://sheldonbrown.org/raleigh-international/index.html

--
Michael Press
  #25  
Old April 19th 08, 08:46 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
landotter
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,336
Default Comparison of Auminium, Steel and Carbon forks?

On Apr 17, 5:23 pm, blackhead wrote:
Are there any impartial tests that have been done on Auminium, Steel
and Carbon forks? Some people say carbon absorbs vibration better than
steel and Aluminium, others say it makes little difference... etc etc


I prefer a composite made from the woven pubic hair of a virgin
combined with celluloid. It's a thrilling ride with the liveliness of
a ping pong ball.
  #26  
Old April 20th 08, 02:35 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 225
Default Comparison of Auminium, Steel and Carbon forks?

On Apr 19, 10:18 am, Mike Rocket J Squirrel
wrote:
On 4/19/2008 6:57 AM wrote:



On Apr 19, 9:48 am, Mike Rocket J Squirrel
wrote:
On 4/19/2008 6:31 AM wrote:


On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 13:58:51 -0800, agcou wrote:
On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 19:55:23 -0400,
wrote:
On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 15:23:53 -0700 (PDT), blackhead
wrote:
Are there any impartial tests that have been done on Auminium, Steel
and Carbon forks? Some people say carbon absorbs vibration better than
steel and Aluminium, others say it makes little difference... etc etc
The differences of design, materials quality and manufacture are greater than
the differences in the materials themselves. Even in weight there is an
intersection between the three. I've got bikes with all three and they've all
got something going for them.
Really depends on what you're doing with the bike and which forks you're
choosing from.
Did you read the OP's question?
Yeah, there are no impartial tests that establish the relative characteristics
of forks made from different materials. Such a test would have to hold all other
variables constant in a way that simply isn't possible.
How come? Not arguing, just curious. Seems (to me, not a mechanical
engineer nor wrench) that one could get three forks with same geometry,
tilt at proper head tube angle, clamp dropouts to shaker table, add mass
loading from above, hang some accelerometers on the stem and let 'er rip.
Just to see, y'know?


--
Mike "Rocket J Squirrel"


That won't tell you much about the materials though. You could do the
same test with three carbon forks with the same geometry and get
vastly different results.


I assume we're not saying that quality control is so poor that three forks
of the same brand/model would not measure the same. More like small
changes in fork shapes, cross-sections, etc., have a bigger influence on
vibration transmission than the the material itself. So the chances of
finding three forks of different materials which are built sufficiently
similar that those other factors will not contribute to the results is
slim to none.
--
Mike "Rocket J Squirrel"


Right. Three forks of the same make and model should be exactly the
same (although variance is likely to go up substantially at the bottom
end of the market), but you can't just test one carbon fork next to
one aluminum fork and say that the difference is the material.
Whatever vibration parameter you're measuring is going to have a big
enough range across different models of carbon forks that it's going
to overlap with the range across different models of aluminum forks.
  #27  
Old April 20th 08, 03:50 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jim beam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,758
Default Comparison of Auminium, Steel and Carbon forks?

wrote:
On Apr 19, 10:18 am, Mike Rocket J Squirrel
wrote:
On 4/19/2008 6:57 AM wrote:



On Apr 19, 9:48 am, Mike Rocket J Squirrel
wrote:
On 4/19/2008 6:31 AM
wrote:
On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 13:58:51 -0800, agcou wrote:
On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 19:55:23 -0400,
wrote:
On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 15:23:53 -0700 (PDT), blackhead
wrote:
Are there any impartial tests that have been done on Auminium, Steel
and Carbon forks? Some people say carbon absorbs vibration better than
steel and Aluminium, others say it makes little difference... etc etc
The differences of design, materials quality and manufacture are greater than
the differences in the materials themselves. Even in weight there is an
intersection between the three. I've got bikes with all three and they've all
got something going for them.
Really depends on what you're doing with the bike and which forks you're
choosing from.
Did you read the OP's question?
Yeah, there are no impartial tests that establish the relative characteristics
of forks made from different materials. Such a test would have to hold all other
variables constant in a way that simply isn't possible.
How come? Not arguing, just curious. Seems (to me, not a mechanical
engineer nor wrench) that one could get three forks with same geometry,
tilt at proper head tube angle, clamp dropouts to shaker table, add mass
loading from above, hang some accelerometers on the stem and let 'er rip.
Just to see, y'know?
--
Mike "Rocket J Squirrel"
That won't tell you much about the materials though. You could do the
same test with three carbon forks with the same geometry and get
vastly different results.

I assume we're not saying that quality control is so poor that three forks
of the same brand/model would not measure the same. More like small
changes in fork shapes, cross-sections, etc., have a bigger influence on
vibration transmission than the the material itself. So the chances of
finding three forks of different materials which are built sufficiently
similar that those other factors will not contribute to the results is
slim to none.
--
Mike "Rocket J Squirrel"


Right. Three forks of the same make and model should be exactly the
same (although variance is likely to go up substantially at the bottom
end of the market), but you can't just test one carbon fork next to
one aluminum fork and say that the difference is the material.


but previously you were saying there would be "vastly different results"
- which of these conflicting statements would you have us believe?


Whatever vibration parameter you're measuring is going to have a big
enough range across different models of carbon forks that it's going
to overlap with the range across different models of aluminum forks.


do you know that for fact? or are you simply presenting presumption as
fact? [rhetorical]
  #29  
Old April 20th 08, 07:03 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,673
Default Comparison of Auminium, Steel and Carbon forks?

On Apr 20, 11:33 am, Ben C wrote:


... So it's better to compare complete forks as sold and then say something
like "out of the 100 forks tested, the CF ones mostly absorbed vibration
better than the Al ones".


But only if that's actually true; and only if it's true to a degree
beyond "negligible."

I think enforcing those two points would eliminate most bicycle
component advertising and hype.

(Ceramic bearings, anyone?)

- Frank Krygowski
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Cheap large steel frame and forks [email protected] Australia 16 July 17th 07 04:17 AM
When did Colnago start with the straight bladed steel forks? David Techniques 0 August 16th 05 03:41 AM
Steel; Aluminum Forks? D. Ualp General 0 August 21st 04 07:53 AM
Carbon forks phenian UK 17 January 7th 04 08:32 PM
20" Carbon forks? rorschandt Recumbent Biking 10 July 19th 03 04:52 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:35 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 CycleBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.