Is there such a thing as an ideal trike?

Bernhard Agthe wrote:

I guess, the most important (and most ignored) question in this thread
is "what do you *want*?"...

My wishlist:
* simple
* seat height not too low
* luggage-carrying capability
* good lighting
* mirror
* fenders
* comfy trike
* DualDrive
* low price tag

What's yours?

Ciao...

I don't actually need another bike of any description as my Utopia
Kranich is pretty near perfect. I was looking into a trike as a sort
of geribike replacement for the Kranich when my sense of balance goes.
So, for the money I should really get something special:

Fast
Stable, so probably tadpole
Able to carry books and wine, foul weather gear
Comfortable
Seat at a reasonable height
Some technical interest over and above merely working
Rohloff gearbox (I don't think the Shimano Nexus box will go low
enough)
No more complicated than is necessary to meet the other parameters

No doubt the moment I send this I'll remember three other crucial
factors...

Andre Jute
Get a tricycle. You will not regret it. If you live. -- Mark Twain

On Jun 9, 2:46*pm, Andre Jute wrote:
Bernhard Agthe wrote:
I guess, the most important (and most ignored) question in this thread
is "what do you *want*?"...

My wishlist:
* simple
* seat height not too low
* luggage-carrying capability
* good lighting
* mirror
* fenders
* comfy trike
* DualDrive
* low price tag

What's yours?

Ciao...

I don't actually need another bike of any description as my Utopia
Kranich is pretty near perfect. I was looking into a trike as a sort
of geribike replacement for the Kranich when my sense of balance goes.
So, for the money I should really get something special:

Fast
Stable, so probably tadpole
Able to carry books and wine, foul weather gear
Comfortable
Seat at a reasonable height
Some technical interest over and above merely working
Rohloff gearbox (I don't think the Shimano Nexus box will go low
enough)
No more complicated than is necessary to meet the other parameters

No doubt the moment I send this I'll remember three other crucial
factors...

Andre Jute
*Get a tricycle. You will not regret it. If you live. -- Mark Twain- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

http://www.pashley.co.uk/gallery/tricycles/1/54.html

aka Russell Seaton wrote:
[snip Jute fibers]

http://www.pashley.co.uk/gallery/tricycles/1/54.html

This one is better for the hungry cyclist:
http://www.pashley.co.uk/products/classic-no-33.html.

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

On Tue, 09 Jun 2009 18:06:00 -0500, Tom Sherman °_°
wrote:

aka Russell Seaton wrote:
[snip Jute fibers]

http://www.pashley.co.uk/gallery/tricycles/1/54.html

This one is better for the hungry cyclist:
http://www.pashley.co.uk/products/classic-no-33.html.


http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=37292

Andre Jute wrote:
Bernhard Agthe wrote:

I guess, the most important (and most ignored) question in this thread
is "what do you *want*?"...

My wishlist:
* simple
* seat height not too low
* luggage-carrying capability
* good lighting
* mirror
* fenders
* comfy trike
* DualDrive
* low price tag

What's yours?

Ciao...

I don't actually need another bike of any description as my Utopia
Kranich is pretty near perfect. I was looking into a trike as a sort
of geribike replacement for the Kranich when my sense of balance goes.
So, for the money I should really get something special:

Fast
Stable, so probably tadpole
Able to carry books and wine, foul weather gear
Comfortable
Seat at a reasonable height
Some technical interest over and above merely working
Rohloff gearbox (I don't think the Shimano Nexus box will go low
enough)
No more complicated than is necessary to meet the other parameters

No doubt the moment I send this I'll remember three other crucial
factors...

Andre Jute
Get a tricycle. You will not regret it. If you live. -- Mark Twain


If you want a "reasonable" seat height, that requirement alone just
about rules out 99% of all tadpole trikes. Most put your rear end only a
few inches off the ground, and their front wheel placement makes them
difficult for anyone who is mobility-challenged (for any reason) to get
into and out of.

Delta trikes are the ones that tend to have more-reasonable seat
heights. Deltas are also safer in practical terms, as the rear tires
normally carry most of the weight, so the single front tire can support
a wide weight shift under hard braking. (some tadpoles can tilt forward
on their front wheels during hard braking, which is risking spinning out)

I also tend to suspect that tadpole trikes are less efficient than a
delta, due to flexing of the frame and steering mechanisms, resulting in
misaligned front wheels.

I have not owned either but a delta makes far more sense to me. The only
advantage that tadpole trikes can accurately claim is that they are
lower, which helps if you're adding a velomobile body onto them.

.....Some people like to point out that tadpoles can go around corners
harder, but most of the time you ride any bike in regular street use,
you're basically riding in straight or nearly-straight lines. The
steering gear is deflecting less than 2 or 3 degrees either left or
right, perhaps 5 degrees at the extreme. It doesn't make sense to me to
sacrifice straight-line efficiency (from misaligned steering wheels) for
the ability to pull high-G turns, when 99% of the time, you're riding in
basically straight lines.

-----

In the US there's not many choices for deltas.
Sun has a few.
The Sun M3 UAX has a uniquely-aero rider position; most deltas have the
rider sitting fairly upright.

http://www.sunbicycles.com/products.php?cl1=RECUMBENT

The only other trike with a aero position I can recall is the recent
RANS Trizard.

http://www.ransbikes.com/Trizard.htm#

Also see Greenspeed Anura, Hase Kettweisels ($$$$), & other choices I
don't know about in Euroland from places where the people talk funny and
have lots of money.
~

On 10 June, 12:50, DougC wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
Bernhard Agthe wrote:

I guess, the most important (and most ignored) question in this thread
is "what do you *want*?"...

My wishlist:
* simple
* seat height not too low
* luggage-carrying capability
* good lighting
* mirror
* fenders
* comfy trike
* DualDrive
* low price tag

What's yours?

Ciao...

I don't actually need another bike of any description as my Utopia
Kranich is pretty near perfect. I was looking into a trike as a sort
of geribike replacement for the Kranich when my sense of balance goes.
So, for the money I should really get something special:

Fast
Stable, so probably tadpole
Able to carry books and wine, foul weather gear
Comfortable
Seat at a reasonable height
Some technical interest over and above merely working
Rohloff gearbox (I don't think the Shimano Nexus box will go low
enough)
No more complicated than is necessary to meet the other parameters

No doubt the moment I send this I'll remember three other crucial
factors...

Andre Jute
*Get a tricycle. You will not regret it. If you live. -- Mark Twain

If you want a "reasonable" seat height, that requirement alone just
about rules out 99% of all tadpole trikes. Most put your rear end only a
few inches off the ground, and their front wheel placement makes them
difficult for anyone who is mobility-challenged (for any reason) to get
into and out of.

Delta trikes are the ones that tend to have more-reasonable seat
heights. Deltas are also safer in practical terms, as the rear tires
normally carry most of the weight, so the single front tire can support
a wide weight shift under hard braking. (some tadpoles can tilt forward
on their front wheels during hard braking, which is risking spinning out)

I also tend to suspect that tadpole trikes are less efficient than a
delta, due to flexing of the frame and steering mechanisms, resulting in
misaligned front wheels.

I have not owned either but a delta makes far more sense to me. The only
advantage that tadpole trikes can accurately claim is that they are
lower, which helps if you're adding a velomobile body onto them.

....Some people like to point out that tadpoles can go around corners
harder, but most of the time you ride any bike in regular street use,
you're basically riding in straight or nearly-straight lines. The
steering gear is deflecting less than 2 or 3 degrees either left or
right, perhaps 5 degrees at the extreme. It doesn't make sense to me to
sacrifice straight-line efficiency (from misaligned steering wheels) for
the ability to pull high-G turns, when 99% of the time, you're riding in
basically straight lines.


Like cross-ply car tyres, bicycle tyres are pretty tolerant of
misalignment because of large slip angles (angle between wheel
direction and the line of track) at working loads. High speed
cornering does not require accurate steering tracking because their
will be minimal weight upon the inside wheel and so little drag. Some
passive rear wheel steering will do a little to reduce drag caused by
rear wheel misalignment. Accuracy with radial car tyres with low
sections is essential for road use, it is innapropriate to use these
tyres so it is innapropriate to think in the terms required for a four
wheel heavy vehicle running tyres "as if they're on rails".

On Jun 10, 12:50*pm, DougC wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
Bernhard Agthe wrote:

I guess, the most important (and most ignored) question in this thread
is "what do you *want*?"...

My wishlist:
* simple
* seat height not too low
* luggage-carrying capability
* good lighting
* mirror
* fenders
* comfy trike
* DualDrive
* low price tag

What's yours?

Ciao...

I don't actually need another bike of any description as my Utopia
Kranich is pretty near perfect. I was looking into a trike as a sort
of geribike replacement for the Kranich when my sense of balance goes.
So, for the money I should really get something special:

Fast
Stable, so probably tadpole
Able to carry books and wine, foul weather gear
Comfortable
Seat at a reasonable height
Some technical interest over and above merely working
Rohloff gearbox (I don't think the Shimano Nexus box will go low
enough)
No more complicated than is necessary to meet the other parameters

No doubt the moment I send this I'll remember three other crucial
factors...

Andre Jute
*Get a tricycle. You will not regret it. If you live. -- Mark Twain

If you want a "reasonable" seat height, that requirement alone just
about rules out 99% of all tadpole trikes. Most put your rear end only a
few inches off the ground, and their front wheel placement makes them
difficult for anyone who is mobility-challenged (for any reason) to get
into and out of.

Delta trikes are the ones that tend to have more-reasonable seat
heights. Deltas are also safer in practical terms, as the rear tires
normally carry most of the weight, so the single front tire can support
a wide weight shift under hard braking. (some tadpoles can tilt forward
on their front wheels during hard braking, which is risking spinning out)

I also tend to suspect that tadpole trikes are less efficient than a
delta, due to flexing of the frame and steering mechanisms, resulting in
misaligned front wheels.

I have not owned either but a delta makes far more sense to me. The only
advantage that tadpole trikes can accurately claim is that they are
lower, which helps if you're adding a velomobile body onto them.

....Some people like to point out that tadpoles can go around corners
harder, but most of the time you ride any bike in regular street use,
you're basically riding in straight or nearly-straight lines. The
steering gear is deflecting less than 2 or 3 degrees either left or
right, perhaps 5 degrees at the extreme. It doesn't make sense to me to
sacrifice straight-line efficiency (from misaligned steering wheels) for
the ability to pull high-G turns, when 99% of the time, you're riding in
basically straight lines.

* -----

In the US there's not many choices for deltas.
Sun has a few.
The Sun M3 UAX has a uniquely-aero rider position; most deltas have the
rider sitting fairly upright.

http://www.sunbicycles.com/products.php?cl1=RECUMBENT

The only other trike with a aero position I can recall is the recent
RANS Trizard.

http://www.ransbikes.com/Trizard.htm#

Also see Greenspeed Anura, Hase Kettweisels ($$$$), & other choices I
don't know about in Euroland from places where the people talk funny and
have lots of money.
~

Thinks for those links, Doug. I went and had a another good hard look
at the deltas and they're still not for me, despite what you and Chalo
say; I still think they're fundamentally not as stable as a tadpole.
And a big dealer with a wide range, who lists his rides on them,
agrees with me on hand of his own experience with them: see
http://www.bicycleman.com/recumbents...ent-trikes.htm
and then check out his judgements of other trikes, both deltas and
tadpoles.

I must say the Sun prices are *very* attractive... And I wouldn't
consider 52 pounds too heavy for a *fully equipped* (rack, dynamo
lights, mudguards all round) trike capable of a weekend tour; a
European trike isn't going to be any lighter regardless of a couple of
ounces saved on better steel or fancy ali. The Anthrotech which
Bernard and I have been discussing, weighs 23kg or around 51 pounds as
delivered, i.e. in touring/everyday trim.

I do ride my bike in the lanes and on the hills more often than in
town. I wouldn't buy a trike just to use in town -- it would get a
spin maybe once a week or a fortnight. I hit 40mph on my daily ride
without even trying and none of my hills are slower than 25mph, which
is already on the iffy side for a delta, according to the "Bicycleman"
quoted above.

Andre Jute
Visit Jute on Amps at
http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/
"wonderfully well written and reasoned information for the tube audio
constructor"
John Broskie TubeCAD & GlassWare
"an unbelievably comprehensive web site containing vital gems of
wisdom"
Stuart Perry Hi-Fi News & Record Review

"DougC" wrote in message
...
[...]
If you want a "reasonable" seat height, that requirement alone just about
rules out 99% of all tadpole trikes. Most put your rear end only a few
inches off the ground, and their front wheel placement makes them
difficult for anyone who is mobility-challenged (for any reason) to get
into and out of.

Delta trikes are the ones that tend to have more-reasonable seat heights.
Deltas are also safer in practical terms, as the rear tires normally carry
most of the weight, so the single front tire can support a wide weight
shift under hard braking. (some tadpoles can tilt forward on their front
wheels during hard braking, which is risking spinning out)

I also tend to suspect that tadpole trikes are less efficient than a
delta, due to flexing of the frame and steering mechanisms, resulting in
misaligned front wheels.

I have not owned either but a delta makes far more sense to me. The only
advantage that tadpole trikes can accurately claim is that they are lower,
which helps if you're adding a velomobile body onto them.

....Some people like to point out that tadpoles can go around corners
harder, but most of the time you ride any bike in regular street use,
you're basically riding in straight or nearly-straight lines. The steering
gear is deflecting less than 2 or 3 degrees either left or right, perhaps
5 degrees at the extreme. It doesn't make sense to me to sacrifice
straight-line efficiency (from misaligned steering wheels) for the ability
to pull high-G turns, when 99% of the time, you're riding in basically
straight lines.

-----

In the US there's not many choices for deltas.
Sun has a few.
The Sun M3 UAX has a uniquely-aero rider position; most deltas have the
rider sitting fairly upright.

http://www.sunbicycles.com/products.php?cl1=RECUMBENT

The only other trike with a aero position I can recall is the recent RANS
Trizard.

http://www.ransbikes.com/Trizard.htm#

Also see Greenspeed Anura, Hase Kettweisels ($$$$), & other choices I
don't know about in Euroland from places where the people talk funny and
have lots of money.

Bravo! Excellent post Doug!

The main reason many folks get tadpoles is because they look sexy. Deltas
have a bad reputation undeservedly because of the utility type of delta
trike. I can recommend the Kettweisel but it is damn expensive.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

"Andre Jute" wrote in message
...
On Jun 10, 12:50 pm, DougC wrote:
[...]
If you want a "reasonable" seat height, that requirement alone just
about rules out 99% of all tadpole trikes. Most put your rear end only a
few inches off the ground, and their front wheel placement makes them
difficult for anyone who is mobility-challenged (for any reason) to get
into and out of.

Delta trikes are the ones that tend to have more-reasonable seat
heights. Deltas are also safer in practical terms, as the rear tires
normally carry most of the weight, so the single front tire can support
a wide weight shift under hard braking. (some tadpoles can tilt forward
on their front wheels during hard braking, which is risking spinning out)

I also tend to suspect that tadpole trikes are less efficient than a
delta, due to flexing of the frame and steering mechanisms, resulting in
misaligned front wheels.

I have not owned either but a delta makes far more sense to me. The only
advantage that tadpole trikes can accurately claim is that they are
lower, which helps if you're adding a velomobile body onto them.

....Some people like to point out that tadpoles can go around corners
harder, but most of the time you ride any bike in regular street use,
you're basically riding in straight or nearly-straight lines. The
steering gear is deflecting less than 2 or 3 degrees either left or
right, perhaps 5 degrees at the extreme. It doesn't make sense to me to
sacrifice straight-line efficiency (from misaligned steering wheels) for
the ability to pull high-G turns, when 99% of the time, you're riding in
basically straight lines.

-----

In the US there's not many choices for deltas.
Sun has a few.
The Sun M3 UAX has a uniquely-aero rider position; most deltas have the
rider sitting fairly upright.

http://www.sunbicycles.com/products.php?cl1=RECUMBENT

The only other trike with a aero position I can recall is the recent
RANS Trizard.

http://www.ransbikes.com/Trizard.htm#

Also see Greenspeed Anura, Hase Kettweisels ($$$$), & other choices I
don't know about in Euroland from places where the people talk funny and
have lots of money.
~

Thinks for those links, Doug. I went and had a another good hard look
at the deltas and they're still not for me, despite what you and Chalo
say; I still think they're fundamentally not as stable as a tadpole.
And a big dealer with a wide range, who lists his rides on them,
agrees with me on hand of his own experience with them: see
http://www.bicycleman.com/recumbents...-trikes.htmand then check out his judgements of other trikes, both deltas andtadpoles. I must say the Sun prices are *very* attractive... And I wouldn'tconsider 52 pounds too heavy for a *fully equipped* (rack, dynamolights, mudguards all round) trike capable of a weekend tour; aEuropean trike isn't going to be any lighter regardless of a couple ofounces saved on better steel or fancy ali. The Anthrotech whichBernard and I have been discussing, weighs 23kg or around 51 pounds asdelivered, i.e. in touring/everyday trim. I do ride my bike in the lanes and on the hills more often than intown. I wouldn't buy a trike just to use in town -- it would get aspin maybe once a week or a fortnight. I hit 40mph on my daily ridewithout even trying and none of my hills are slower than 25mph, whichis already on the iffy side for a delta, according to the "Bicycleman"quoted above.Andre Jute is the technical expert and so I leave him to Tom Sherman,another technical expert. But I urge Andre to give deltas another look.The steering on a tadpole is complicated whereas the steering on a delta isjust simple bicycle steering. If you want a go-cart, then get a tadpole. Ifyou want a bicycle, then get a delta. Also, it just makes sense to have thetwo wheels in the rear, not the front. Tadpoles have got everythingbackwards!A long delta will be stable. Only very short deltas will be unstable. Alltadpoles are short and therefore unstable.You will never be fast on a trike. And you do not want to be sitting uprighton one either. After all, comfort is the main thing. A low delta recumbenttrike with sufficient seat lay back is as good as a trike gets. And they area lot of fun too!As for being low and possibly not seen by motorists, forget about it. Younever want to be in the lane with motorists on any kind of bike. If you dothat, it is just a matter of time until you are hit.Regards,Ed Dolan the Great - MinnesotaakaSaint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

Second attempt to get it right! I think the links messed everything up.

"Andre Jute" wrote in message
...
[...]

Thinks for those links, Doug. I went and had another good hard look
at the deltas and they're still not for me, despite what you and Chalo
say; I still think they're fundamentally not as stable as a tadpole.
And a big dealer with a wide range, who lists his rides on them,
agrees with me on hand of his own experience with them: see
then check out his judgements of other trikes, both deltas and tadpoles.

I must say the Sun prices are *very* attractive... And I wouldn't consider
52 pounds too heavy for a *fully equipped* (rack, dynamolights, mudguards
all round) trike capable of a weekend tour; a European trike isn't going
to be any lighter regardless of a couple of ounces saved on better steel
or fancy ali. The Anthrotech which Bernard and I have been discussing,
weighs 23kg or around 51 pounds as delivered, i.e. in touring/everyday
trim.

I do ride my bike in the lanes and on the hills more often than in town. I
wouldn't buy a trike just to use in town -- it would get a spin maybe once
a week or a fortnight. I hit 40mph on my daily ride without even trying
and none of my hills are slower than 25mph, which is already on the iffy
side for a delta, according to the "Bicycleman"quoted above.

Andre Jute is the technical expert and so I leave him to Tom Sherman,
another technical expert. But I urge Andre to give deltas another look.The
steering on a tadpole is complicated whereas the steering on a delta is just
simple bicycle steering. If you want a go-cart, then get a tadpole. If you
want a bicycle, then get a delta. Also, it just makes sense to have the two
wheels in the rear, not the front. Tadpoles have got everything backwards!

A long delta will be stable. Only very short deltas will be unstable. All
tadpoles are short and therefore unstable.

You will never be fast on a trike. And you do not want to be sitting upright
on one either. After all, comfort is the main thing. A low delta recumbent
trike with sufficient seat lay back is as good as a trike gets. And they are
a lot of fun too!

As for being low and possibly not seen by motorists, forget about it. You
never want to be in the lane with motorists on any kind of bike. If you do
that, it is just a matter of time until you are hit.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota