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#102
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If you don't believe in Evolution, then why do you drive an SUV?
"Tadej Brezina" wrote in message . .. David Kerber wrote: In article , says... I am talking about oil energy required, not food energy. It takes roughly ten units of oil energy to get one unit of food energy into your body. Farming, fertilizer, transportation, cooking, cleaning take lot of energy. For ideal cases, a bike may burn as much energy as a very efficient small car. For head winds and other non-ideal conditions the equivalent MPG drop down into the range of other cars. So if I go on a ride and burn 600 kCal of energy over and above what I would burn driving that same 30 miles or so, I would use 6000 kcal of oil energy? Do you realize just how little gasoline it takes to account for that much energy? My 30 mpg car would burn approx 1 gallon of gasoline to go that distance, which is way more than 6000kCal. After looking up the numbers, here's what I found: According to the DOE, 1 (US) gal of gasoline provides approx 124000 BTU's of energy (an average across all common grades). 1 BTU is approx 252 calories (251.9958 according to my converter), so 1 gallon of gasoline provides approx 31248000 calories, or 31248 kCal. So accepting for the sake of argument your assertion that 1 cal of food energy takes 10 cal of oil energy, I would burn about 5 times as much gasoline energy to drive 30 miles as I would to ride my bike that same distance. So your math is rather off... Hey don't be so hard on Jack, he's just doing calculations according to "normal research these days"! Tadej Part of smart growth buildings these days in the USA is to include showers, clothes washing services and chaning rooms in eco-smart buildings so bike riders can enter the business world in proper clothing. Europe has many fewer hot days than we do in the southern part of the USA. |
#103
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If you don't believe in Evolution, then why do you drive an SUV?
"David Kerber" wrote in message t... In article , says... to go that distance, which is way more than 6000kCal. After looking up the numbers, here's what I found: According to the DOE, 1 (US) gal of gasoline provides approx 124000 BTU's of energy (an average across all common grades). 1 BTU is approx 252 calories (251.9958 according to my converter), so 1 gallon of gasoline provides approx 31248000 calories, or 31248 kCal. So accepting for the sake of argument your assertion that 1 cal of food energy takes 10 cal of oil energy, I would burn about 5 times as much gasoline energy to drive 30 miles as I would to ride my bike that same distance. So your math is rather off... It has been some time since I have revisited the subject of how much oil (not gasoline as you mistakenly used), but here some recent data. http://www.energybulletin.net/5045.html "However, transport energy consumption is also significant, and if included in these ratios would mean that the ratio would decrease further. For example, when iceberg lettuce is imported to the UK from the USA by plane, the energy ratio is only 0.00786. In other words 127 calories of energy (aviation fuel) are needed to transport 1 calorie of lettuce across the Atlantic. If the energy consumed during lettuce cultivation, packaging, refrigeration, distribution in the UK and shopping by car was included, the energy needed would be even higher. Similarly, 97 calories of transport energy are needed to import 1 calorie of asparagus by plane from Chile, and 66 units of energy are consumed when flying 1 unit of carrot energy from South Africa." One example in the same paper of the amount of processing done for food is: "Just how energy inefficient the food system is can be seen in the crazy case of the Swedish tomato ketchup. Researchers at the Swedish Institute for Food and Biotechnology analysed the production of tomato ketchup (2). The study considered the production of inputs to agriculture, tomato cultivation and conversion to tomato paste (in Italy), the processing and packaging of the paste and other ingredients into tomato ketchup in Sweden and the retail and storage of the final product. All this involved more than 52 transport and process stages." "The aseptic bags used to package the tomato paste were produced in the Netherlands and transported to Italy to be filled, placed in steel barrels, and then moved to Sweden. The five layered, red bottles were either produced in the UK or Sweden with materials form Japan, Italy, Belgium, the USA and Denmark. The polypropylene (PP) screw-cap of the bottle and plug, made from low density polyethylene (LDPE), was produced in Denmark and transported to Sweden. Additionally, LDPE shrink-film and corrugated cardboard were used to distribute the final product. Labels, glue and ink were not included in the analysis." Claiming that a bicycle is efficient in oil use is a real stretch to say the least |
#104
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If you don't believe in Evolution, then why do you drive an SUV?
"Jack May" wrote in message ... "David Kerber" wrote in message t... In article , says... to go that distance, which is way more than 6000kCal. After looking up the numbers, here's what I found: According to the DOE, 1 (US) gal of gasoline provides approx 124000 BTU's of energy (an average across all common grades). 1 BTU is approx 252 calories (251.9958 according to my converter), so 1 gallon of gasoline provides approx 31248000 calories, or 31248 kCal. So accepting for the sake of argument your assertion that 1 cal of food energy takes 10 cal of oil energy, I would burn about 5 times as much gasoline energy to drive 30 miles as I would to ride my bike that same distance. So your math is rather off... It has been some time since I have revisited the subject of how much oil (not gasoline as you mistakenly used), but here some recent data. http://www.energybulletin.net/5045.html "However, transport energy consumption is also significant, and if included in these ratios would mean that the ratio would decrease further. For example, when iceberg lettuce is imported to the UK from the USA by plane, the energy ratio is only 0.00786. In other words 127 calories of energy (aviation fuel) are needed to transport 1 calorie of lettuce across the Atlantic. If the energy consumed during lettuce cultivation, packaging, refrigeration, distribution in the UK and shopping by car was included, the energy needed would be even higher. Similarly, 97 calories of transport energy are needed to import 1 calorie of asparagus by plane from Chile, and 66 units of energy are consumed when flying 1 unit of carrot energy from South Africa." One example in the same paper of the amount of processing done for food is: "Just how energy inefficient the food system is can be seen in the crazy case of the Swedish tomato ketchup. Researchers at the Swedish Institute for Food and Biotechnology analysed the production of tomato ketchup (2). The study considered the production of inputs to agriculture, tomato cultivation and conversion to tomato paste (in Italy), the processing and packaging of the paste and other ingredients into tomato ketchup in Sweden and the retail and storage of the final product. All this involved more than 52 transport and process stages." "The aseptic bags used to package the tomato paste were produced in the Netherlands and transported to Italy to be filled, placed in steel barrels, and then moved to Sweden. The five layered, red bottles were either produced in the UK or Sweden with materials form Japan, Italy, Belgium, the USA and Denmark. The polypropylene (PP) screw-cap of the bottle and plug, made from low density polyethylene (LDPE), was produced in Denmark and transported to Sweden. Additionally, LDPE shrink-film and corrugated cardboard were used to distribute the final product. Labels, glue and ink were not included in the analysis." Claiming that a bicycle is efficient in oil use is a real stretch to say the least It looks to me like you're the one who is stretching, since the energy cost of sending iceberg lettuce to the UK from the US is irrelevant to the discussion. It's already been established that the biking situation in the UK and Europe is substantially different to that here. It is, however, a great argument for buying your produce from local suppliers, something people who are riding bikes because they are concerned about the environment are more likely to do than people who don't think much about their environmental impact at all (and thus are more likely to drive). |
#105
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If you don't believe in Evolution, then why do you drive an SUV?
George Conklin wrote:
"Tadej Brezina" wrote in message . .. David Kerber wrote: In article , says... I am talking about oil energy required, not food energy. It takes roughly ten units of oil energy to get one unit of food energy into your body. Farming, fertilizer, transportation, cooking, cleaning take lot of energy. For ideal cases, a bike may burn as much energy as a very efficient small car. For head winds and other non-ideal conditions the equivalent MPG drop down into the range of other cars. So if I go on a ride and burn 600 kCal of energy over and above what I would burn driving that same 30 miles or so, I would use 6000 kcal of oil energy? Do you realize just how little gasoline it takes to account for that much energy? My 30 mpg car would burn approx 1 gallon of gasoline to go that distance, which is way more than 6000kCal. After looking up the numbers, here's what I found: According to the DOE, 1 (US) gal of gasoline provides approx 124000 BTU's of energy (an average across all common grades). 1 BTU is approx 252 calories (251.9958 according to my converter), so 1 gallon of gasoline provides approx 31248000 calories, or 31248 kCal. So accepting for the sake of argument your assertion that 1 cal of food energy takes 10 cal of oil energy, I would burn about 5 times as much gasoline energy to drive 30 miles as I would to ride my bike that same distance. So your math is rather off... Hey don't be so hard on Jack, he's just doing calculations according to "normal research these days"! Tadej Part of smart growth buildings these days in the USA is to include showers, clothes washing services and chaning rooms in eco-smart buildings so bike riders can enter the business world in proper clothing. Europe has many fewer hot days than we do in the southern part of the USA. You will want a shower after riding a bicycle in the upper Midwest on a summer day. -- Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia "And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people." - A. Derleth |
#106
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If you don't believe in Evolution, then why do you drive an SUV?
Jack May wrote:
"David Kerber" wrote in message t... In article , says... to go that distance, which is way more than 6000kCal. After looking up the numbers, here's what I found: According to the DOE, 1 (US) gal of gasoline provides approx 124000 BTU's of energy (an average across all common grades). 1 BTU is approx 252 calories (251.9958 according to my converter), so 1 gallon of gasoline provides approx 31248000 calories, or 31248 kCal. So accepting for the sake of argument your assertion that 1 cal of food energy takes 10 cal of oil energy, I would burn about 5 times as much gasoline energy to drive 30 miles as I would to ride my bike that same distance. So your math is rather off... It has been some time since I have revisited the subject of how much oil (not gasoline as you mistakenly used), but here some recent data. http://www.energybulletin.net/5045.html "However, transport energy consumption is also significant, and if included in these ratios would mean that the ratio would decrease further. For example, when iceberg lettuce is imported to the UK from the USA by plane, the energy ratio is only 0.00786. In other words 127 calories of energy (aviation fuel) are needed to transport 1 calorie of lettuce across the Atlantic. If the energy consumed during lettuce cultivation, packaging, refrigeration, distribution in the UK and shopping by car was included, the energy needed would be even higher. Similarly, 97 calories of transport energy are needed to import 1 calorie of asparagus by plane from Chile, and 66 units of energy are consumed when flying 1 unit of carrot energy from South Africa." One example in the same paper of the amount of processing done for food is: "Just how energy inefficient the food system is can be seen in the crazy case of the Swedish tomato ketchup. Researchers at the Swedish Institute for Food and Biotechnology analysed the production of tomato ketchup (2). The study considered the production of inputs to agriculture, tomato cultivation and conversion to tomato paste (in Italy), the processing and packaging of the paste and other ingredients into tomato ketchup in Sweden and the retail and storage of the final product. All this involved more than 52 transport and process stages." "The aseptic bags used to package the tomato paste were produced in the Netherlands and transported to Italy to be filled, placed in steel barrels, and then moved to Sweden. The five layered, red bottles were either produced in the UK or Sweden with materials form Japan, Italy, Belgium, the USA and Denmark. The polypropylene (PP) screw-cap of the bottle and plug, made from low density polyethylene (LDPE), was produced in Denmark and transported to Sweden. Additionally, LDPE shrink-film and corrugated cardboard were used to distribute the final product. Labels, glue and ink were not included in the analysis." Claiming that a bicycle is efficient in oil use is a real stretch to say the least What is the ratio of oil required to produce a bicycle and get it to the LBS compared to the amount of oil required to produce a SUV and get it to the dealer's lot? -- Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia "And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people." - A. Derleth |
#107
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If you don't believe in Evolution, then why do you drive an SUV?
Jack May wrote:
"David Kerber" wrote in message t... In article , says... to go that distance, which is way more than 6000kCal. After looking up the numbers, here's what I found: According to the DOE, 1 (US) gal of gasoline provides approx 124000 BTU's of energy (an average across all common grades). 1 BTU is approx 252 calories (251.9958 according to my converter), so 1 gallon of gasoline provides approx 31248000 calories, or 31248 kCal. So accepting for the sake of argument your assertion that 1 cal of food energy takes 10 cal of oil energy, I would burn about 5 times as much gasoline energy to drive 30 miles as I would to ride my bike that same distance. So your math is rather off... It has been some time since I have revisited the subject of how much oil (not gasoline as you mistakenly used), but here some recent data. http://www.energybulletin.net/5045.html "However, transport energy consumption is also significant, and if included in these ratios would mean that the ratio would decrease further. For example, when iceberg lettuce is imported to the UK from the USA by plane, the energy ratio is only 0.00786. In other words 127 calories of energy (aviation fuel) are needed to transport 1 calorie of lettuce across the Atlantic. If the energy consumed during lettuce cultivation, packaging, refrigeration, distribution in the UK and shopping by car was included, the energy needed would be even higher. Similarly, 97 calories of transport energy are needed to import 1 calorie of asparagus by plane from Chile, and 66 units of energy are consumed when flying 1 unit of carrot energy from South Africa." One example in the same paper of the amount of processing done for food is: "Just how energy inefficient the food system is can be seen in the crazy case of the Swedish tomato ketchup. Researchers at the Swedish Institute for Food and Biotechnology analysed the production of tomato ketchup (2). The study considered the production of inputs to agriculture, tomato cultivation and conversion to tomato paste (in Italy), the processing and packaging of the paste and other ingredients into tomato ketchup in Sweden and the retail and storage of the final product. All this involved more than 52 transport and process stages." "The aseptic bags used to package the tomato paste were produced in the Netherlands and transported to Italy to be filled, placed in steel barrels, and then moved to Sweden. The five layered, red bottles were either produced in the UK or Sweden with materials form Japan, Italy, Belgium, the USA and Denmark. The polypropylene (PP) screw-cap of the bottle and plug, made from low density polyethylene (LDPE), was produced in Denmark and transported to Sweden. Additionally, LDPE shrink-film and corrugated cardboard were used to distribute the final product. Labels, glue and ink were not included in the analysis." How's that Jack, endlessly posting irrelvant stuff in the "Götterdämmerung" of denial? 1. As everyone, cyclist and driver may be eating food either transhipped globally or produced organically and locally, your hidden attempt to assign the energy intensive food solely to teh cyclist is as childish as pre-puberty can get. Still I would recommend to consume locally grown organic food. 2. Of course the bicycle production is not free of energy use and emissions. Nobody who wants to be taken seriously, claims that. Cars do get painted either, get zink coats, use a biblical mixture of materials, etc. So simply due to the at least fifty times higher mass (a generous 1000kg for a car and a bad 20 kg for a bike), the impact ecological rucksack of a car at stage of production end is again by orders of magnitude higher than a car. Claiming that a bicycle is efficient in oil use is a real stretch to say the least Jack, as usually, you are right! Bicycles have no chance in comparison to walking regarding their ecological impact. Your original claim, that bicycles might be as low in energy consumption as cars is a masterpiece of ridiculousness - making intelligent design seem respectable in comparison. Tadej -- "Vergleich es mit einer Pflanze - die wächst auch nur dann gut, wenn du sie nicht jeden zweiten Tag aus der Erde reißt, um nachzusehen, ob sie schon Wurzeln geschlagen hat." Martina Diel in d.t.r |
#108
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If you don't believe in Evolution, then why do you drive an SUV?
George Conklin wrote:
"Tadej Brezina" wrote in message . .. David Kerber wrote: In article , says... I am talking about oil energy required, not food energy. It takes roughly ten units of oil energy to get one unit of food energy into your body. Farming, fertilizer, transportation, cooking, cleaning take lot of energy. For ideal cases, a bike may burn as much energy as a very efficient small car. For head winds and other non-ideal conditions the equivalent MPG drop down into the range of other cars. So if I go on a ride and burn 600 kCal of energy over and above what I would burn driving that same 30 miles or so, I would use 6000 kcal of oil energy? Do you realize just how little gasoline it takes to account for that much energy? My 30 mpg car would burn approx 1 gallon of gasoline to go that distance, which is way more than 6000kCal. After looking up the numbers, here's what I found: According to the DOE, 1 (US) gal of gasoline provides approx 124000 BTU's of energy (an average across all common grades). 1 BTU is approx 252 calories (251.9958 according to my converter), so 1 gallon of gasoline provides approx 31248000 calories, or 31248 kCal. So accepting for the sake of argument your assertion that 1 cal of food energy takes 10 cal of oil energy, I would burn about 5 times as much gasoline energy to drive 30 miles as I would to ride my bike that same distance. So your math is rather off... Hey don't be so hard on Jack, he's just doing calculations according to "normal research these days"! Tadej Part of smart growth buildings these days in the USA is to include showers, clothes washing services and chaning rooms in eco-smart buildings so bike riders can enter the business world in proper clothing. Europe has many fewer hot days than we do in the southern part of the USA. Nice post Conk, nevertheless wrong location of the thread. Yes you are probably true regarding moist and heat in the south. But please do not compare apples and pears. Europe is not of singular dimension, it has quite a respectable N-S extension and has very hot places in the south too. So compare e.g. New Orleans to Napoli or Boston to Hamburg. Tadej -- "Vergleich es mit einer Pflanze - die wächst auch nur dann gut, wenn du sie nicht jeden zweiten Tag aus der Erde reißt, um nachzusehen, ob sie schon Wurzeln geschlagen hat." Martina Diel in d.t.r |
#109
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If you don't believe in Evolution, then why do you drive an SUV?
Tadej Brezina wrote:
Jack May wrote: "David Kerber" wrote in message t... In article , says... to go that distance, which is way more than 6000kCal. After looking up the numbers, here's what I found: According to the DOE, 1 (US) gal of gasoline provides approx 124000 BTU's of energy (an average across all common grades). 1 BTU is approx 252 calories (251.9958 according to my converter), so 1 gallon of gasoline provides approx 31248000 calories, or 31248 kCal. So accepting for the sake of argument your assertion that 1 cal of food energy takes 10 cal of oil energy, I would burn about 5 times as much gasoline energy to drive 30 miles as I would to ride my bike that same distance. So your math is rather off... It has been some time since I have revisited the subject of how much oil (not gasoline as you mistakenly used), but here some recent data. http://www.energybulletin.net/5045.html "However, transport energy consumption is also significant, and if included in these ratios would mean that the ratio would decrease further. For example, when iceberg lettuce is imported to the UK from the USA by plane, the energy ratio is only 0.00786. In other words 127 calories of energy (aviation fuel) are needed to transport 1 calorie of lettuce across the Atlantic. If the energy consumed during lettuce cultivation, packaging, refrigeration, distribution in the UK and shopping by car was included, the energy needed would be even higher. Similarly, 97 calories of transport energy are needed to import 1 calorie of asparagus by plane from Chile, and 66 units of energy are consumed when flying 1 unit of carrot energy from South Africa." One example in the same paper of the amount of processing done for food is: "Just how energy inefficient the food system is can be seen in the crazy case of the Swedish tomato ketchup. Researchers at the Swedish Institute for Food and Biotechnology analysed the production of tomato ketchup (2). The study considered the production of inputs to agriculture, tomato cultivation and conversion to tomato paste (in Italy), the processing and packaging of the paste and other ingredients into tomato ketchup in Sweden and the retail and storage of the final product. All this involved more than 52 transport and process stages." "The aseptic bags used to package the tomato paste were produced in the Netherlands and transported to Italy to be filled, placed in steel barrels, and then moved to Sweden. The five layered, red bottles were either produced in the UK or Sweden with materials form Japan, Italy, Belgium, the USA and Denmark. The polypropylene (PP) screw-cap of the bottle and plug, made from low density polyethylene (LDPE), was produced in Denmark and transported to Sweden. Additionally, LDPE shrink-film and corrugated cardboard were used to distribute the final product. Labels, glue and ink were not included in the analysis." How's that Jack, endlessly posting irrelvant stuff in the "Götterdämmerung" of denial? 1. As everyone, cyclist and driver may be eating food either transhipped globally or produced organically and locally, your hidden attempt to assign the energy intensive food solely to teh cyclist is as childish as pre-puberty can get. Still I would recommend to consume locally grown organic food. 2. Of course the bicycle production is not free of energy use and emissions. Nobody who wants to be taken seriously, claims that. Cars do get painted either, get zink coats, use a biblical mixture of materials, etc. So simply due to the at least fifty times higher mass (a generous 1000kg for a car and a bad 20 kg for a bike), the impact ecological rucksack of a car at stage of production end is again by orders of magnitude higher than a car. "... higher than a bicycle." T. -- "Vergleich es mit einer Pflanze - die wächst auch nur dann gut, wenn du sie nicht jeden zweiten Tag aus der Erde reißt, um nachzusehen, ob sie schon Wurzeln geschlagen hat." Martina Diel in d.t.r |
#110
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If you don't believe in Evolution, then why do you drive an SUV?
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