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The _Observer_ on "deadly" bike lanes
"Steve Peake" wrote in message ... On 23 May 2004 12:35:07 -0700, bikerider7 wrote: [Note: I have not been on Blackfriars bridge, and the article seems quite vague on the "problem" with this particular cycle lane....] Scandal of our deadly cycle lanes Same story was on bbc local news tonight on tv. May be repeated later after 9 if anyone missed it. Thanks to the unique way the BBC is funded ;-) http://www.bbc.co.uk/london/realmedia/news/tvnews.ram The report in question is at 5:20. Note this will be updated around 22:45 with the 10 o'clock bulletin. |
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The _Observer_ on "deadly" bike lanes
Peter Clinch wrote:
Probably most affected are things like trikes and trailers, which can't easily get through those little traffic-limiting gates designed to stop yoofs tearing up and down the things on scooters and mopeds Yeah. We just got our £2 million bridge over the A14 installed just outside Cambridge - but if you want to get to the local household waste recycling centre/tip with a trailer you need to either go around the roundabout the bridge is supposed to help you avoid, or cycle all the way through Milton and back down the A10 to the junction. There's a perfectly good bridge over the A10 but it's got barriers that prevent a trailer. *fume* |
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The _Observer_ on "deadly" bike lanes
In article ,
Simonb wrote: Philip Armstrong wrote: In article , Philip Armstrong wrote: http://www.kantaka.co.uk/blackfriars_bridge/ 195.92.67.67 - - [24/May/2004:19:26:33 +0100] "GET /blackfriars_bridge/ HTTP/1.1" 200 2061 "-" "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1)" Not got mine, then? You were third I believe: 81.2.107.192 - - [24/May/2004:19:30:31 +0100] "GET /blackfriars_bridge/ HTTP/1.1" 200 2061 "-" "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.0)" $ whois 81.2.107.192 .... person: Simon R Bennett .... The first two hits were from energis webcaches, so presumably are freeserve users. Phil -- http://www.kantaka.co.uk/ .oOo. public key: http://www.kantaka.co.uk/gpg.txt |
#44
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The _Observer_ on "deadly" bike lanes
"Simon Proven" wrote in message
... Yeah. We just got our £2 million bridge over the A14 installed just outside Cambridge - but if you want to get to the local household waste recycling centre/tip with a trailer you need to either go around the roundabout the bridge is supposed to help you avoid, or cycle all the way through Milton and back down the A10 to the junction. There's a perfectly good bridge over the A10 but it's got barriers that prevent a trailer. *fume* When I lived in Milton and worked in cambridge, I wanted to get out of the village as fast as possible. The old road to Histon would have been perfect for getting onto the A10, but somebody put that fence in the way and built that bridge. One day I did a little gardening, and as if by magic a little cycle route appeared on on the south side of the bridge. (chopped some vegetation, converted a ditch/lump into something approximately flat). And all was marvellous. It became quite a popular little cut. But the day I saw a scooter using it I knew it wouldn't last. I left for pleasanter places, so wasn't around for a while - but I noticed on one of my visits back to the place that somebody official had noticed people using the cut, and declared 'This shall not be used', enforcing it with a big sheffield stand like object. Grr. If I still lived there that object would not be there... (Apparently at the same time as we were there somebody made a couple of the paths in the estate more cycle friendly by removing a couple of the irritating barriers. Made getting to tescos much easier). (dunno how trailer friendly my little cut was - it was designed for me, and I didn't have a trailer then :-) ) cheers, clive |
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The _Observer_ on "deadly" bike lanes
Peter Clinch wrote:
If you remove cyclists from roads by segregation there become effectively less of them, so things instantly get more dangerous on the road when the road can't be avoided. This is a crucial error in thinking by UK cycle campaigners, and has been for many years. It came up in a discussion I had with with Kevin Mayne, Director of of CTC, and I have been thinking about it since then. It exactly analogous to the old belief by traffic planners that building bypasses will reduce traffic on roads in towns because traffic will transfer from one road to another. We know that what actually happens is that (motor) traffic expands to fill the space made available and that the increased capacity generates increased motor traffic. It is strange that cycle campaigners who see the truth of this then argue that creating cycle tracks and paths removes cyclists from the road: a parallel wrong idea. What one observes everywhere where effective off-road or segregated cycle networks are created in towns is that, in addition to generating cycle traffic on these tracks, you get **more cycling on the normal roads as well**. You see this in the Netherlands, Denmark etc but it is a detectable effect in certain British towns and even in parts of London. Effective networks of cycle tracks encourage a much larger section of the population to cycle than we generally see on two wheels in the UK. They then inevitably spill over onto all the other roads, creating the critical mass on those roads which makes cycling there safer and changes the perception and behaviour of drivers. The road conditions in Holland that Peter has experienced and commented upon are a consequence of this mechanism. Simon Brooke wrote: No, you're completely and diametrically wrong, as research done in both Holland and Denmark has shown. In both those countries (as in the UK, US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand) studies have shown that cycle paths are substantially more dangerous than the roads. We've been through this argument again and again; it's like helmets. Common sense says that cycle paths should help, and everyone initially assumes they do and that experienced cyclists are just being pig-headed about this. We're not. Initially we all thought as you do, but we've read the research, and our minds have been changed. Believe me, I have looked into this issue. All sorts of contradictory research gets quoted on this subject. Sometimes it is good research, sometimes it is bad, irrelevant or mis-applied, sometimes it gets mis-quoted, taken out of context or mis-translated. Unfortunately most that is relevant is not in English. For example, a few years ago a study was quoted all over the UK cycling journals claiming that research in Holland had proved that there were more accidents at junctions when cycle tracks were built than when they were not. I looked at that and had it translated from the Dutch. All the British reports were based on the English summary, which it turned out had a crucial error in it, which invalidated everything that was being said. The raised accident levels applied to motorbikes, not bikes. In all other cases I have looked at, the safety case against segregation being claimed by some in the UK cycling world was not really supported by what the studies were saying. Pretty well everything John Franklin quotes on his site comes into this category. I only know one thing for certain, as it is based on official figures. Studying the cycling statistics of various countries shows a very clear three-way correlation between the provision of quality segregated infrastructure, high levels of cycling, and high levels of safety. I suggest that this cannot be co-incidental. If we take this kind of thing, quoted by Patrick Herring in this thread: Traffic safety of cycle tracks in Danish cities. Before and after study of 105 new cycle paths in Denmark, introduced 1978-81, totalling 64km. Cyclist casualties increased 48% following introduction of paths. one kind of wonders why all the cyclists in Denmark and The Netherlands have not been wiped out by now, since they have both continued to built more segregated tracks since then. People who hold this view need to explain why these localised studies, if correct, seem so out of kilter with the overall national statistics of cycling deaths and injuries. Why is it so safe in Denmark and The Netherlands in reality? I suggest the problem is that the "micro-studies" do not represent the large-scale, long-term realities of the changes produced by the cycle engineering "styles" of various states and regions. The Dutch/Danish patterns of design do introduce their own issues at junctions, but other changes occur in the overall environment due to the increased cycling generated by an attractive cycling environment so that the overall result is danger reduction on the large stale, averaged over all roads, the "treated" and the "normal". Most roads in cycle-friendly towns remain, and will always remain, "normal", but the benefits of good cycle design elsewhere spill over onto them in terms of more cycling and better respect by motorists there as well. As Patrick Herring says, separate lanes will get many more cycling and we just might end up like Holland and Denmark. In a nutshell. The people who might not like it, in some places, might be a few cyclists who like to cycle very fast (20+ mph) in towns. But should they be allowed to do this anyway - consider the poor pedestrians? There is a very widespread call for motor speeds to be limited to 20 in towns. We need to be consistent. We shouldn't make roads policy for speeding drivers, and we shouldn't make cycling policy for fast cyclists. David Arditti |
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The _Observer_ on "deadly" bike lanes
On Mon, 24 May 2004 21:17:41 +0100, David Arditti
wrote in message : If you remove cyclists from roads by segregation there become effectively less of them, so things instantly get more dangerous on the road when the road can't be avoided. This is a crucial error in thinking by UK cycle campaigners [...] exactly analogous to the old belief by traffic planners that building bypasses will reduce traffic on roads in towns because traffic will transfer from one road to another. We know that what actually happens is that (motor) traffic expands to fill the space made available and that the increased capacity generates increased motor traffic. It is strange that cycle campaigners who see the truth of this then argue that creating cycle tracks and paths removes cyclists from the road: a parallel wrong idea. Why? The major deterrent to additional car journies is congestion. The major deterrent to more cycling is laziness. Bulding new roads spreads out the congestion; building cycle paths does not amke people less lazy. Effective networks of cycle tracks encourage a much larger section of the population to cycle than we generally see on two wheels in the UK. Evidence? Edinburgh spent large sums and the number of utility cyclists apparently dropped. I suggest the problem is that the "micro-studies" do not represent the large-scale, long-term realities of the changes produced by the cycle engineering "styles" of various states and regions. The Dutch/Danish patterns of design do introduce their own issues at junctions, but other changes occur in the overall environment due to the increased cycling Which pre-dates the cycling environment. There is a long-term high user base in these countries. And the fietspads were in some cases (certainly in Germany) originally built for the benefit of motorists. The people who might not like it, in some places, might be a few cyclists who like to cycle very fast (20+ mph) in towns. Eh? My view is that every road in every town, with very few exceptions, should be easy for cyclists to use, however fast they want to ride. My friend Arnold is Dutch and rides 15 miles per day in the UK; his view is that the cycle paths here are a disaster because we lack the Dutch laws of presumed fault, and we lack Dutch levels of cycling so the drivers for the most part aren't properly aware of cyclists, and we lack Dutch planners who know how to deal with junctions fractionally better than we do, and we lack the Dutch commitment to putting bikes first. But should they be allowed to do this anyway - consider the poor pedestrians? There is a very widespread call for motor speeds to be limited to 20 in towns. We need to be consistent. We shouldn't make roads policy for speeding drivers, and we shouldn't make cycling policy for fast cyclists. 1/2 mv^2 Guy -- May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting. http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk 88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University |
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The _Observer_ on "deadly" bike lanes
On Mon, 24 May 2004 21:17:41 +0100, David Arditti wrote:
widespread call for motor speeds to be limited to 20 in towns. We need to be consistent. We shouldn't make roads policy for speeding drivers, and we shouldn't make cycling policy for fast cyclists. Don't agree. Speed limits don't apply to bicycles - I'm sure you know that, and so does the group. However, more relevantly, if we restrict out discussion to London and other big cities, the comparison should be made between cycling and other forms of transport. We're looking at the door-to-door times and the convenience of cycle commuting reasonable long distances - by that I mean distances people would commute on the Tube. Let's (say) take an hour's commute, door-to-door, people should be aware they can do the same commute on a bike. I will agree that we need leisure routes too, eg. along the Thames and the Waterlink Way etc. in London, which will probably get used by beginning commuters. But there's no way people in (say) SE London will commute up to the West End if they cannot use the Old Kent Road. Think of Glasgow - to get from the West End to Partick/Yoker/Clydebank/Dalmuir by your argument you would commute via the cycle track along the old railway. I would say wrong - OK for a leisure journey, but for a regular commute it will take longer than Dumbarton Road, lead to more punctures and probably a half brick or two sailing in your direction. Sorry to be so local - but I had to include examples. |
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The _Observer_ on "deadly" bike lanes
John Hearns typed
Think of Glasgow - to get from the West End to Partick/Yoker/Clydebank/Dalmuir by your argument you would commute via the cycle track along the old railway. That is dead scary for a girl, cycling by herself! I don't think the personal security/crime aspect has been considered in cycle route planning. There's one in London (Somers Town) where there have been some truly horrific attacks on cyclists. Police presence has been notched up but the advice is still to cycle in groups here. This would seriously reduce the utility of any bike route. I would say wrong - OK for a leisure journey, but for a regular commute it will take longer than Dumbarton Road, lead to more punctures and probably a half brick or two sailing in your direction. Quite! I usually used Dumbarton Road. Crossing the Clyde was a problem... Sorry to be so local - but I had to include examples. -- Helen D. Vecht: Edgware. |
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The _Observer_ on "deadly" bike lanes
David Arditti writed in
: snip snip Effective networks of cycle tracks encourage a much larger section of the population to cycle than we generally see on two wheels in the UK. They then inevitably spill over onto all the other roads, creating the critical mass on those roads which makes cycling there safer and changes the perception and behaviour of drivers. The road conditions in Holland that Peter has experienced and commented upon are a consequence of this mechanism. lots of snipping David Arditti I wonder if we are comparing chalk and cheese. Cycle paths as constructed as part of the Stevenage scheme in the ?1930s are a long, long way from those constructed in Milton Keynes, or anywhere else in recent times. Properly thought out routes like Stevenage, I am sure *will* encourage cycling, even Milton Keynes type routes had the potential to do so, but are let down by poor maintenance and some very bad design flaws, in the newer sections. Typical 'facility' construction by local authorities in the last 10 years comes not within a thousand light years of even the poorest of these (maybe slight exageration). The problem is that construction of good quality (Stevenage style) cycle facilities is very expensive and land-hungry as it involves wide lanes, underpasses and good quality bridges, not to mention lighting, signposting and maintenance. I seriously beleive that good quality, voluntary, segregated facilities have the potential to increase cycling significantly. But, we will never see them in the UK. We will continue to see the half baked, cheap (and dangerous) schemes that seek to marginalise the cyclist. The big difference on the roads (as opposed to facilities) in places like France, Denmark and The NEtherlands, is that the typical middle aged car driver, had, in his younger days been a typical cyclist! Mike - Leicester |
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The _Observer_ on "deadly" bike lanes
Effective networks of cycle tracks encourage a much larger section of the population to cycle than we generally see on two wheels in the UK. Evidence? Edinburgh spent large sums and the number of utility cyclists apparently dropped. Forty minutes from London's Kings Cross is Stevenage, the town that taught the Dutch how to do bike paths. You don't have to read foreign papers, just go and look. It was Stevenage's chief engineer, Eric Claxton, touring the world, talking about Stevenage, that led to the idea that you could build bike path systems in towns, at least if you built the path system first, and then built the town round it. I don't know what the bike modal split is in Stevenage nowadays. They don't seem to like to talk about it. Further up the same line is Cambridge, where the bike facilities are few, crummy, and were installed only two thirds of a century after the bikes arrived. Cambridge has a higher proportion of cyclists than Amsterdam. Jeremy Parker |
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