|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#101
|
|||
|
|||
DRIVERLESS ELECTRIC CARS
On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 11:26:41 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote: On 10/11/2017 2:40 AM, John B. wrote: On Tue, 10 Oct 2017 08:30:52 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski wrote: On Tuesday, October 10, 2017 at 1:19:43 AM UTC-4, John B. wrote: On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 22:37:43 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 10/9/2017 3:13 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 11:30:40 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski wrote: I wasn't doubting that auto-cars will exist and become popular. I was doubting that the government will "shove them down our throats." I wonder whether they will ever become popular given that they quite obviously will be more expensive, perhaps much more expensive, I am reading numbers as large as $75,000 for Google's autonomous driving vehicle. Didn't SMS recently post something about buying a new car? I seem to remember numbers in the range of a third of that value. I imagine you're right, that in the short term these things will be expensive. But I expect that long term the price difference will be greatly reduced. (I imagine the phone in my pocket would have been worth ten thousand dollars 10 years ago, if it existed at all.) Maybe. But the cost of electric cars is still a bit frightening. However I do read that they qualify for some sort of government pay back scheme in the U.S. Another point is battery replacement cost, from what I read an individual that drives everyday may be looking at a battery change in as little as 5 years. I know several people who own hybrid cars, plus one guy who owns an all-electric Nissan Leaf. What I've heard: The dominant model is the Toyota Prius. It seems Prius battery life has been much better than anticipated; they're going way over 100,000 miles. One guy I know has a hybrid Honda Civic. He lives in a hot southern state. After something like seven years, his battery capacity dropped terribly. IIRC, there was some sort of recall for recalibration of software, but he's still very dissatisfied. Another guy, until very recently, owned a Honda Insight, the very first hybrid I'd ever heard about. It's a tiny, super-aero two seater. He bought his used, it had some electrical/battery problems, and Honda astonishingly replaced the entire battery pack and some wiring for free. However, I wouldn't count on that ever happening again. It didn't with that Civic owner. But the battery packs do have limited life, even if that limit is very long. Replacement is very expensive. So when gauging the long term cost of these cars, it would be good to know the battery lifetime. It might be wise to sell it or trade it in before the battery's due to crap out (if you're that kind of person), and it might be good to research the battery issue heavily before you buy one that's used. Even if self-driving worked only on limited access freeways, it would ease a lot of frustration. I think it would make the experience of freeway driving much more like the experience of riding a train in a private compartment. The couple times I've done that, I found it to be fairly pleasant. I was thinking about the subject last night before I dozed off and the question popped up. At the moment (from what I read) people drive as much as 20 mph faster then the posted speed limit. How is that going to work in the robot car? Will it be possible to order the robot to break the law or will traffic move at the legal speed? IME, seeing someone 20 mph over the limit is pretty rare. Lots of people seem to shoot for 2 to 5 over the limit, though. I used the number as someone here posted that there was usually a 20mph allowance before you get ticketed. I'm sure that the auto-cars will be limited to the limit (duh!). Again, it really doesn't add much time to a typical drive. To divert into psychology: Somehow, being in a car triggers urges to "get to the front" or "get past this guy." The slightly more practical justification is "I don't want to be slowed down." But as we all know, it's not unusual to have a motorist race to pass a bicyclist, then end up sitting at the same red light. The even more stupid freeway example is when a construction project reduces everything to one lane. Passing is impossible, traffic might be lined up for a mile ahead, yet some dolts will tailgate and even honk horns if you're not near the rear bumper of the car in front of you. I don't know whether you remember Uncle Tom McCahill's articles in Mechanics Illustrated but he wrote an article about speed on trips. He drove a car coast to coast and return. One way he drove as fast as possible and on the return he drove at the legal posted speed. The difference was measured in hours. Driving makes many people insane. -- Cheers, John B. |
Ads |
#102
|
|||
|
|||
DRIVERLESS ELECTRIC CARS
On Wednesday, October 11, 2017 at 5:23:21 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/11/2017 5:25 PM, Doug Landau wrote: On Wednesday, October 11, 2017 at 3:18:15 PM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Tue, 10 Oct 2017 17:03:46 -0500, AMuzi wrote: Oh, Jeff you are so naive. Yeah, that's a problem. I tend to trust and believe people. I'll try to be less trusting and more cynical. A government required unit at $20 mfr base price could easily be several hundred dollars once you factor in the usual graft/corruption/inefficiency, maybe more with some mandated percentage of "free" transponders to targeted groups. Governments do not produce anything. They pass one the task of designing and building transponders. If things don't go well, they subsidize various products in order to accelerate public acceptance. Most likely, such a transponder will be made in China, imported by a politically connected distributor, sold by a multi-national company, profits deposited in Ireland, and maintained by domestic industrial serfs in the manner of the middle ages. Rules and regulations will be established to insure that do exactly what is not needed or wanted. The rules and regulation will be changed every 5 years to accelerate inventory turnover and enhance premature obsolescence. Useful hardware life will be preset and limited to 5 years to insure perpetual sales. Corporate welfare will be in the form of subsidies needed to insure that the transponders are affordable. Lack of efficiency will be insured by the traditional government agency. How am I doing? Do you still consider me naive? There are very good reasons that in The War On Poverty, poverty won. That was lost before it started. There's no money or taxes to collect from the impoverished. Better to make war on those with money. ...with their own money. But how? That was well established a hundred years ago: http://quotes.liberty-tree.ca/quote_...nin.Quote.068C Tee hee |
#103
|
|||
|
|||
DRIVERLESS ELECTRIC CARS
On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 13:58:11 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote: On 10/11/2017 11:26 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote: Another guy, until very recently, owned a Honda Insight, the very first hybrid I'd ever heard about. It's a tiny, super-aero two seater. He bought his used, it had some electrical/battery problems, and Honda astonishingly replaced the entire battery pack and some wiring for free. However, I wouldn't count on that ever happening again. It didn't with that Civic owner. Oops. Turns out it wasn't free, but he felt it was very inexpensive and a real bargain. They did not charge him for the labor, and he felt he ended up with a car that was very reliable and very inexpensive to run for a very low price. Years ago I read an article about "electric cars". The author selected the Volkswagen Beetle as the minimum size auto that would be acceptable to the U.S. motoring public. After much debate about pros and cons he got to the part about required electrical power when the motoring population of Los Angeles arrived home at 17:30 and plugged their cars in to be recharged :-) -- Cheers, John B. |
#104
|
|||
|
|||
DRIVERLESS ELECTRIC CARS
On 10/11/2017 7:25 PM, Doug Landau wrote:
On Wednesday, October 11, 2017 at 5:14:12 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote: On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 09:38:38 -0500, AMuzi wrote: On 10/11/2017 1:40 AM, John B. wrote: On Tue, 10 Oct 2017 08:30:52 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski wrote: On Tuesday, October 10, 2017 at 1:19:43 AM UTC-4, John B. wrote: On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 22:37:43 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 10/9/2017 3:13 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 11:30:40 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski wrote: I wasn't doubting that auto-cars will exist and become popular. I was doubting that the government will "shove them down our throats." I wonder whether they will ever become popular given that they quite obviously will be more expensive, perhaps much more expensive, I am reading numbers as large as $75,000 for Google's autonomous driving vehicle. Didn't SMS recently post something about buying a new car? I seem to remember numbers in the range of a third of that value. I imagine you're right, that in the short term these things will be expensive. But I expect that long term the price difference will be greatly reduced. (I imagine the phone in my pocket would have been worth ten thousand dollars 10 years ago, if it existed at all.) Maybe. But the cost of electric cars is still a bit frightening. However I do read that they qualify for some sort of government pay back scheme in the U.S. Another point is battery replacement cost, from what I read an individual that drives everyday may be looking at a battery change in as little as 5 years. But what do you get for this money? After all probably everyone reading this is capable of driving an automobile so what advantage does this, rather expensive, self-driver provide? Well: To my astonishment, I find that I'm driving long distances much more often since I retired. It's not just retirement that influenced that (although it enabled it); there have been family matters that have arisen, new obligations and avocations, different circles of friends, etc. But driving an hour each way is now far, far too common. And sitting behind a steering wheel always seems damned unproductive. :-) Well, when we are in Phuket it is about a 1.25 - 1.5 hour drive to town in today's traffic. I find that I can do all sorts of planning and designing during the drive :-) Even if self-driving worked only on limited access freeways, it would ease a lot of frustration. I think it would make the experience of freeway driving much more like the experience of riding a train in a private compartment. The couple times I've done that, I found it to be fairly pleasant. I was thinking about the subject last night before I dozed off and the question popped up. At the moment (from what I read) people drive as much as 20 mph faster then the posted speed limit. How is that going to work in the robot car? Will it be possible to order the robot to break the law or will traffic move at the legal speed? And red light drag racing would obviously be right out the door too :-) Another problem that might arise. Will a self-driver work if one visits Canada, or Mexico? I guess it would depend on whether the system required a two-way communication network. If so, Canada might achieve that before the U.S. did. (I assume a bunch of U.S. states would declare this to be a muslim or communist conspiracy and refuse to buy into it.) - Frank Krygowski -- Cheers, John B. Red light drag racing? IME you punch it when the light turns green. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnalEcqFibE -- Cheers, John B. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oF_YUEr3es man that guy can _climb_ ! -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#105
|
|||
|
|||
DRIVERLESS ELECTRIC CARS
On 10/11/2017 7:26 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 11:26:41 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 10/11/2017 2:40 AM, John B. wrote: On Tue, 10 Oct 2017 08:30:52 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski wrote: On Tuesday, October 10, 2017 at 1:19:43 AM UTC-4, John B. wrote: On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 22:37:43 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 10/9/2017 3:13 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 11:30:40 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski wrote: I wasn't doubting that auto-cars will exist and become popular. I was doubting that the government will "shove them down our throats." I wonder whether they will ever become popular given that they quite obviously will be more expensive, perhaps much more expensive, I am reading numbers as large as $75,000 for Google's autonomous driving vehicle. Didn't SMS recently post something about buying a new car? I seem to remember numbers in the range of a third of that value. I imagine you're right, that in the short term these things will be expensive. But I expect that long term the price difference will be greatly reduced. (I imagine the phone in my pocket would have been worth ten thousand dollars 10 years ago, if it existed at all.) Maybe. But the cost of electric cars is still a bit frightening. However I do read that they qualify for some sort of government pay back scheme in the U.S. Another point is battery replacement cost, from what I read an individual that drives everyday may be looking at a battery change in as little as 5 years. I know several people who own hybrid cars, plus one guy who owns an all-electric Nissan Leaf. What I've heard: The dominant model is the Toyota Prius. It seems Prius battery life has been much better than anticipated; they're going way over 100,000 miles. One guy I know has a hybrid Honda Civic. He lives in a hot southern state. After something like seven years, his battery capacity dropped terribly. IIRC, there was some sort of recall for recalibration of software, but he's still very dissatisfied. Another guy, until very recently, owned a Honda Insight, the very first hybrid I'd ever heard about. It's a tiny, super-aero two seater. He bought his used, it had some electrical/battery problems, and Honda astonishingly replaced the entire battery pack and some wiring for free. However, I wouldn't count on that ever happening again. It didn't with that Civic owner. But the battery packs do have limited life, even if that limit is very long. Replacement is very expensive. So when gauging the long term cost of these cars, it would be good to know the battery lifetime. It might be wise to sell it or trade it in before the battery's due to crap out (if you're that kind of person), and it might be good to research the battery issue heavily before you buy one that's used. Even if self-driving worked only on limited access freeways, it would ease a lot of frustration. I think it would make the experience of freeway driving much more like the experience of riding a train in a private compartment. The couple times I've done that, I found it to be fairly pleasant. I was thinking about the subject last night before I dozed off and the question popped up. At the moment (from what I read) people drive as much as 20 mph faster then the posted speed limit. How is that going to work in the robot car? Will it be possible to order the robot to break the law or will traffic move at the legal speed? IME, seeing someone 20 mph over the limit is pretty rare. Lots of people seem to shoot for 2 to 5 over the limit, though. I used the number as someone here posted that there was usually a 20mph allowance before you get ticketed. I'm sure that the auto-cars will be limited to the limit (duh!). Again, it really doesn't add much time to a typical drive. To divert into psychology: Somehow, being in a car triggers urges to "get to the front" or "get past this guy." The slightly more practical justification is "I don't want to be slowed down." But as we all know, it's not unusual to have a motorist race to pass a bicyclist, then end up sitting at the same red light. The even more stupid freeway example is when a construction project reduces everything to one lane. Passing is impossible, traffic might be lined up for a mile ahead, yet some dolts will tailgate and even honk horns if you're not near the rear bumper of the car in front of you. I don't know whether you remember Uncle Tom McCahill's articles in Mechanics Illustrated but he wrote an article about speed on trips. He drove a car coast to coast and return. One way he drove as fast as possible and on the return he drove at the legal posted speed. The difference was measured in hours. Driving makes many people insane. Exactly. My personal records: Madison WI to LA in 32 hours, Seattle 27, NYC 13 flat. No wonder Tom gets stopped when he drives 55 - it's suspicious! -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#106
|
|||
|
|||
DRIVERLESS ELECTRIC CARS
On Wednesday, October 11, 2017 at 5:32:33 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/11/2017 7:25 PM, Doug Landau wrote: On Wednesday, October 11, 2017 at 5:14:12 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote: On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 09:38:38 -0500, AMuzi wrote: On 10/11/2017 1:40 AM, John B. wrote: On Tue, 10 Oct 2017 08:30:52 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski wrote: On Tuesday, October 10, 2017 at 1:19:43 AM UTC-4, John B. wrote: On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 22:37:43 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 10/9/2017 3:13 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 11:30:40 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski wrote: I wasn't doubting that auto-cars will exist and become popular. I was doubting that the government will "shove them down our throats." I wonder whether they will ever become popular given that they quite obviously will be more expensive, perhaps much more expensive, I am reading numbers as large as $75,000 for Google's autonomous driving vehicle. Didn't SMS recently post something about buying a new car? I seem to remember numbers in the range of a third of that value. I imagine you're right, that in the short term these things will be expensive. But I expect that long term the price difference will be greatly reduced. (I imagine the phone in my pocket would have been worth ten thousand dollars 10 years ago, if it existed at all.) Maybe. But the cost of electric cars is still a bit frightening. However I do read that they qualify for some sort of government pay back scheme in the U.S. Another point is battery replacement cost, from what I read an individual that drives everyday may be looking at a battery change in as little as 5 years. But what do you get for this money? After all probably everyone reading this is capable of driving an automobile so what advantage does this, rather expensive, self-driver provide? Well: To my astonishment, I find that I'm driving long distances much more often since I retired. It's not just retirement that influenced that (although it enabled it); there have been family matters that have arisen, new obligations and avocations, different circles of friends, etc. But driving an hour each way is now far, far too common. And sitting behind a steering wheel always seems damned unproductive. :-) Well, when we are in Phuket it is about a 1.25 - 1.5 hour drive to town in today's traffic. I find that I can do all sorts of planning and designing during the drive :-) Even if self-driving worked only on limited access freeways, it would ease a lot of frustration. I think it would make the experience of freeway driving much more like the experience of riding a train in a private compartment.. The couple times I've done that, I found it to be fairly pleasant. I was thinking about the subject last night before I dozed off and the question popped up. At the moment (from what I read) people drive as much as 20 mph faster then the posted speed limit. How is that going to work in the robot car? Will it be possible to order the robot to break the law or will traffic move at the legal speed? And red light drag racing would obviously be right out the door too :-) Another problem that might arise. Will a self-driver work if one visits Canada, or Mexico? I guess it would depend on whether the system required a two-way communication network. If so, Canada might achieve that before the U.S. did. (I assume a bunch of U.S. states would declare this to be a muslim or communist conspiracy and refuse to buy into it.) - Frank Krygowski -- Cheers, John B. Red light drag racing? IME you punch it when the light turns green. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnalEcqFibE -- Cheers, John B. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oF_YUEr3es man that guy can _climb_ ! I rode that and these trails the other day: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiL_b1a6-_Q That's not my video, but ... big grin |
#108
|
|||
|
|||
I read an interesting article that sooner or later we will not only use driveless cars as means of transportation, but also 70% of people will prefer to live in driveless homes https://tranio.com/world/spotlight/s...y-market_5354/ rather than buy expensive condos/houses.
|
#109
|
|||
|
|||
DRIVERLESS ELECTRIC CARS
On Thu, 12 Oct 2017 11:37:08 +0100, Steffo
wrote: I read an interesting article that sooner or later we will not only use driveless cars as means of transportation, but also 70% of people will prefer to live in driveless homes http://tinyurl.com/yangl6pa rather than buy expensive condos/houses. Yep. If it moves, is road legal, and can be computerized, it can be automated to drive itself. Just keep the mobile home moving so that it never needs to find a parking space. Progress blunders onward. Just one problem. The road infrastructure that the US built during the 1930's depression, and again during the cold war, is falling apart. Roads are designed to last about 25 years and bridges about 50 years. The better built freeways, maybe also 50 years. The whole concept of driverless cars assumes the existence and maintenance of smooth, clean, pot hole free, and safe highways. By the time driverless cars are perfected and the Luddites have been exterminated, the cost of replacing and repairing the highways will probably reach the crisis point. The car of the future might just be a 4x4 with an articulated suspension, designed to make it's way over the rubble that was once our freeway and highway system. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#110
|
|||
|
|||
DRIVERLESS ELECTRIC CARS
On Thursday, October 12, 2017 at 9:09:36 AM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Thu, 12 Oct 2017 11:37:08 +0100, Steffo wrote: I read an interesting article that sooner or later we will not only use driveless cars as means of transportation, but also 70% of people will prefer to live in driveless homes http://tinyurl.com/yangl6pa rather than buy expensive condos/houses. Yep. If it moves, is road legal, and can be computerized, it can be automated to drive itself. Just keep the mobile home moving so that it never needs to find a parking space. Progress blunders onward. Just one problem. The road infrastructure that the US built during the 1930's depression, and again during the cold war, is falling apart. Roads are designed to last about 25 years and bridges about 50 years. The better built freeways, maybe also 50 years. ? These things change all the time Caltrans is out there every day widening said freeways and so on The whole concept of driverless cars assumes the existence and maintenance of smooth, clean, pot hole free, and safe highways. Says who? They already face a number of similar problems such as lanes, turns, intersections, and traffic. Why should potholes and surface smoothness be any different or unsolvable? By the time driverless cars are perfected and the Luddites have been exterminated, the cost of replacing and repairing the highways will probably reach the crisis point. The car of the future might just be a 4x4 with an articulated suspension, designed to make it's way over the rubble that was once our freeway and highway system. |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Electric cars in the wet | NEMO | UK | 3 | February 16th 15 04:09 PM |
OBIT ELECTRIC CARS | kolldata | Techniques | 2 | October 30th 11 09:49 PM |
Charging points for cars but what about electric bicycles? | Doug[_3_] | UK | 17 | February 27th 10 06:10 PM |
Electric Car Conversion Companies: Alternatives To Gas Powered Cars | n41beyha | Unicycling | 0 | November 27th 07 04:40 PM |
An Electric Car Conversion Kit Will Not Affect Your Cars Speed OrPick-Up | n41beyha | Techniques | 0 | November 27th 07 04:19 PM |