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Making left turn -- how far left is left?
Dear rec.bicycles.misc:
Here's the setup. Making left turn at signaled intersection. Slight downhill to intersection, then flat. It's a T- intersection, the options are left, right or Rubio's Fish Taco's straight ahead (#1 for San Diego denizens). Postal collection boxes on corner at right. I'm roaring down for a left turn, but the light turns yellow while I'm about 25 or 20 feet away from the intersection, so I brake (both hands, didn't signal the stop there, my bad on that). Extra special complexity -- one of the new USPS 2 1/2 ton dual role collection/delivery vans is smack dab on the right while the "letter carrier" is sorting out parcels, flats and envelopes into the appropriate tubs. White SUV (big one) with mom and boy, roars in for a right turn all of five inches from me, and she's MAD about having to stop, or about nearly rear-ending me, or both. Mom immediately berates me for not going through the light -- to which my reply was "At THIS intersection?" And then I decide to clam up, more or less, because the road isn't usenet, and with her kid in the vehicle with her, Mom can NOT afford to be wrong. Ever. Any protestation will lead to escalation. Besides, who am I to say I'm perfect? Also, it's not the greatest neighborhood economically, so the usual drivers of shiny new SUVs with kids are heading to/from the medical offices nearby. Mom the driver then points out that cyclists turning left go "all the way to the left." I look down -- center line of bicycle is about 18 inches from the double yellow. I thought the "Have a nice rest of your life" was a bit gratuitious on her part, but with an attitude like that, I'm glad I didn't get into it with her (see above about how she can't afford to be wrong, because she's in the presence of her child). So, now that I've done venting about what was said/not said in a somewhat safer forum than wedged between a traffic stop and an SUV, I've got to ask, how far left is "left?" Especially at an intersection where the left turns from the perpendicular lane are often taken sharply by folks trying to get into the 7-11 parking lot in one smooth manuveur? Robert Leone |
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#3
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Making left turn -- how far left is left?
wrote ...
Dear rec.bicycles.misc: Here's the setup. Making left turn at signaled intersection. Slight downhill to intersection, then flat. It's a T- intersection, the options are left, right or Rubio's Fish Taco's straight ahead (#1 for San Diego denizens). Postal collection boxes on corner at right. I'm roaring down for a left turn, but the light turns yellow while I'm about 25 or 20 feet away from the intersection, so I brake (both hands, didn't signal the stop there, my bad on that). Extra special complexity -- one of the new USPS 2 1/2 ton dual role collection/delivery vans is smack dab on the right while the "letter carrier" is sorting out parcels, flats and envelopes into the appropriate tubs. White SUV (big one) with mom and boy, roars in for a right turn all of five inches from me, and she's MAD about having to stop, or about nearly rear-ending me, or both. Mom immediately berates me for not going through the light -- to which my reply was "At THIS intersection?" And then I decide to clam up, more or less, because the road isn't usenet, and with her kid in the vehicle with her, Mom can NOT afford to be wrong. Ever. Any protestation will lead to escalation. Besides, who am I to say I'm perfect? Also, it's not the greatest neighborhood economically, so the usual drivers of shiny new SUVs with kids are heading to/from the medical offices nearby. Mom the driver then points out that cyclists turning left go "all the way to the left." I look down -- center line of bicycle is about 18 inches from the double yellow. I thought the "Have a nice rest of your life" was a bit gratuitious on her part, but with an attitude like that, I'm glad I didn't get into it with her (see above about how she can't afford to be wrong, because she's in the presence of her child). So, now that I've done venting about what was said/not said in a somewhat safer forum than wedged between a traffic stop and an SUV, I've got to ask, how far left is "left?" Especially at an intersection where the left turns from the perpendicular lane are often taken sharply by folks trying to get into the 7-11 parking lot in one smooth manuveur? Robert Leone 18 inches from the yellow center line sounds close enough to me, that would put your left handlebar less than a foot from the center line. If Mom can't fit her vehicle between you and the USPS truck then her choices are to 1) stop and wait for the light to turn or 2) get a smaller vehicle. I had a talk with the local sheriff's department a while back, and I was told that yelling unwanted advice or rude comments to other road users the way Mom did can be construed as either harassment or disorderly conduct, depending on the exact circumstances. Whether or not you can get the local police and courts to take any action is probably a different story. Still, you might be able to rattle Mom's cage a little by pulling out a pencil and paper, writing down her license number, and offering to see what the local police have to say about your behavior and hers. -- mark |
#4
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Making left turn -- how far left is left?
wrote:
Here's the setup. Making left turn at signaled intersection. Slight downhill to intersection, then flat. It's a T- intersection, the options are left, right or Rubio's Fish Taco's straight ahead (#1 for San Diego denizens). Postal collection boxes on corner at right. I'm roaring down for a left turn, but the light turns yellow while I'm about 25 or 20 feet away from the intersection, so I brake (both hands, didn't signal the stop there, my bad on that). You aren't required to signal if you need both hands to control your bike. I know I wouldn't try to brake hard with only one hand. Mom the driver then points out that cyclists turning left go "all the way to the left." I look down -- center line of bicycle is about 18 inches from the double yellow. (a) Who says they "go all the way to the left"? (b) It sounds like you were pretty much "all the way to the left" to me. If she can't pass you safely, then maybe you should have been further right (taking the lane). Turning left at a T intersection like that, I'd position myself in the left tire track of the lane that allows both left and right turns. If there isn't such a lane, then I'd position myself in the right tire track of the right-most left-turn lane. FWIW, YMMV, etc. -- Darin McGrew, , http://www.rahul.net/mcgrew/ Web Design Group, , http://www.HTMLHelp.com/ "How long is this Beta guy going to keep testing our stuff?" |
#5
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Making left turn -- how far left is left?
"Darin McGrew" wrote in message ... Turning left at a T intersection like that, I'd position myself in the left tire track of the lane that allows both left and right turns. If there isn't such a lane, then I'd position myself in the right tire track of the right-most left-turn lane. FWIW, YMMV, etc. IIRC, that's what "Effective Cycling" says about that. |
#6
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Making left turn -- how far left is left?
wrote:
Dear rec.bicycles.misc: Here's the setup. Making left turn at signaled intersection. Slight downhill to intersection, then flat. It's a T- intersection, the options are left, right or Rubio's Fish Taco's straight ahead (#1 for San Diego denizens). Postal collection boxes on corner at right. I'm roaring down for a left turn, but the light turns yellow while I'm about 25 or 20 feet away from the intersection, so I brake (both hands, didn't signal the stop there, my bad on that). Extra special complexity -- one of the new USPS 2 1/2 ton dual role collection/delivery vans is smack dab on the right while the "letter carrier" is sorting out parcels, flats and envelopes into the appropriate tubs. White SUV (big one) with mom and boy, roars in for a right turn all of five inches from me, and she's MAD about having to stop, or about nearly rear-ending me, or both. Mom immediately berates me for not going through the light -- to which my reply was "At THIS intersection?" And then I decide to clam up, more or less, because the road isn't usenet, and with her kid in the vehicle with her, Mom can NOT afford to be wrong. Ever. Any protestation will lead to escalation. Besides, who am I to say I'm perfect? Also, it's not the greatest neighborhood economically, so the usual drivers of shiny new SUVs with kids are heading to/from the medical offices nearby. Mom the driver then points out that cyclists turning left go "all the way to the left." I look down -- center line of bicycle is about 18 inches from the double yellow. I thought the "Have a nice rest of your life" was a bit gratuitious on her part, but with an attitude like that, I'm glad I didn't get into it with her (see above about how she can't afford to be wrong, because she's in the presence of her child). So, now that I've done venting about what was said/not said in a somewhat safer forum than wedged between a traffic stop and an SUV, I've got to ask, how far left is "left?" Especially at an intersection where the left turns from the perpendicular lane are often taken sharply by folks trying to get into the 7-11 parking lot in one smooth manuveur? Robert Leone You did a lovely job describing the scenery, but I'm not sure you ever specified how many lanes are involved! Regardless, I think in just about any lane configuration I'd ideally position myself toward the center, or center-right, of the right-most left turn lane. Especially if there's just one lane, period, you don't want a right-turning vehicle to pull up along side you or pass you on the left, nor do you want a left-turning vehicle to pull up alongside you or pass in the intersection on your right (preventing you from fading back toward the right curb in the course of your turn). Indeed, I guess I'm not a huge "taker of lanes," but it's one of the few situations where I will. I used to face a big left turn first thing in the morning on my commute, off a 4-lane divided highway with a 45 mph speed limit. There were two left turn lanes, the leftmost left-turn only and the right-hand one that either turned or went straight. Now, it's no fun being anywhere within that rightmost LTL lane with heavy traffic coming up from behind wanting to go straight through the green at 45 mph, but it's also no fun to take the leftmost LTL and find yourself pinned toward the center by someone making the turn at the same time as you in the other LTL. I solved my dilemma by moving. |
#7
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Making left turn -- how far left is left?
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#8
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Making left turn -- how far left is left?
In article ,
DrLith wrote: [T intersection, coming in on the side with no straight-through] Regardless, I think in just about any lane configuration I'd ideally position myself toward the center, or center-right, of the right-most left turn lane. Especially if there's just one lane, period, you don't want a right-turning vehicle to pull up along side you or pass you on the left, Moving farther left will do more to discourage this. If the lane is wide enough, there's no reason not to leave enough space on your right for a car; you won't be crossing paths, and neither of you is moving fast enough to need as much elbow room as you would if you weren't waiting to enter the turn. nor do you want a left-turning vehicle to pull up alongside you or pass in the intersection on your right (preventing you from fading back toward the right curb in the course of your turn). Why are you doing that in the course of your turn anyways? Keep your lane position during the turn, then once you've completed the turn move back to your preferred riding position. If there's a car to your right as you're turning, then either they'll pull ahead of you and you can move in behind them, or they're going the same speed as you (or even slower) and there's no reason to change your relative position. If the lane isn't wide enough to share going through the intersection, they shouldn't be pulling up beside you waiting to enter it. I've never had problems riding in the left tire track and moving farther left if there's a car waiting behind me with a right-turn signal on. (That doesn't actually happen much; usually right-turning drivers recognize that I'm turning left based on my lane position and pull through on my right without me having to do anything, and there's almost always enough room in the lane for low-speed sharing.) This appears to be what the OP was doing in a lane that wasn't wide enough for sharing; from the driver's reaction we can conclude that she was an idiot. dave -- Dave Vandervies Well, we started with a mailserver named after the author of "Institutes of the Christian Religion" and a nameserver named after the author of "Leviathan". --Anthony de Boer in the scary devil monastery |
#9
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Making left turn -- how far left is left?
Darin McGrew writes:
You aren't required to signal if you need both hands to control your bike. I tried to track down something that says this in the California Vehicle Code once, but I couldn't find it, even though it makes perfect sense to me. Do you have a reference? -- Ben Pfaff email: web: http://benpfaff.org |
#10
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Making left turn -- how far left is left?
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