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Making America into Amsterdam



 
 
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  #131  
Old July 14th 18, 02:35 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
Default Making America into Amsterdam

On 7/13/2018 4:35 PM, jbeattie wrote:

The obvious premise is that "if you don't ride like me, you're a fanatical dope."


"Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot,
and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?" - George Carlin


--
- Frank Krygowski
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  #132  
Old July 14th 18, 05:10 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 5,870
Default Making America into Amsterdam

On Friday, July 13, 2018 at 2:03:37 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-07-13 13:35, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, July 13, 2018 at 1:09:16 PM UTC-7, duane wrote:
On 13/07/2018 3:49 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, July 13, 2018 at 9:29:23 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-07-11 13:47, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/10/2018 5:04 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-07-09 12:48, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/9/2018 12:12 AM, Tim McNamara wrote:

European cities have some tendency to be more compact
with shorter rides (1-2 km) for work and errands.
American urban areas tend to be spread out so that we
can all have our half acre of lawn or more.

Where I live, a 2 km ride will get me to and from the
library, our dentist, the post office, the pharmacy and
one convenience/beer store. Hardware, groceries,
restaurants, credit union or anything else is further.
I'm fine with that, but most Americans (probably like
most Europeans) will never ride 10 miles to get to and
from their credit union.


The Dutch and Belgians used to be different. 10mi, 20mi,
big deal. But can't say about today as this was 30 years
ago.

Sorry, but if you mean that most Dutch and Belgians used to
ride something like 20 miles per day, I don't believe you.


Note that I didn't say "most of the population". Most of my
friends, yes. Or rather, nearly all of them. Most of the
population I can't say, of course.

Very popular was the "kroegen tocht" (pub run) by road bike,
especially among Belgians which is why I preferred to ride with
them. 30-40mi with here and there a beer. Dutch road bikers
were often too competitive and only concentrated on the sports
aspects, many wouldn't ever consider visiting a pub because
that cost "valuable minutes".


Those Dutch guys should be stopping every five miles for a beer.
What are they thinking?

And when we're talking about "the Dutch and Belgians," the
assumption is that we're talking about a country average and not
your cohort of pub-crawlers. I could say Oregonians ride hundreds
of miles a week because that's what my friends do, but it hardly
describes the state average.



Wait, I thought most people in northern California went to work on
single track fighting saber tooth er mountain lions, equipped with
only a largish rock and a roofing nail as tools but carrying
multiple growlers of the local plonk. Isn't that what they do "out
there?"

I figured I was much too competitive to to be wasting "minutes"
stopping for a beer. We usually do that after the 100k or so...



Then you likely missed a lot of great pubs. We often plan our routes so
we hit a brewpub towards the end of the ride. Like the Fair Oaks Brewpub
yesterday:

https://s3-media3.fl.yelpcdn.com/bph...SJMs97RQ/o.jpg


Wow. A brew pub. http://www.portlandbeer.org/breweries This doesn't even cover the breweries with multiple locations, like the ten zillion McMenamins (two in walking distance from my house). I won't stop for a brew pub. I will stop for blackberries -- and sometimes coffee and pastry, usually on dreary winter rides. I stop at 7-11s and country stores for water and donettes. Food of the gods.

BTW, speaking of abbeys, I've ridden down to the Mt. Angel Abbey, but never bothered getting beer. https://www.mountangelabbey.org/benedictine-brewery/ I placed in the Mt. Angel criterium one year and won a box of Kettle Chips -- two dozen giant bags. It was kind of bizarre. In fact, it was at the Octoberfest, and I did have a beer. https://www.travelsalem.com/sites/de...?itok=K4VH-G0O Makes you miss your lederhosen, eh? The little downtown is kind of hokey.

Like Duane, I prefer not to drink beer until the end of a ride. My son and I tend to stop at the food carts and get lunch and ride home with it, bags swinging from the bars for the last mile home. https://noticingswportland.files.wor...0/p9304543.jpg



The obvious premise is that "if you don't ride like me, you're a
fanatical dope." I feel the same way now that I'm old and slow. When
my son rides me off his wheel (every ride), I just say "oh, you only
care about the sports aspects . . . I'm enjoying the scenery. Look,
a flower!" The funny thing is that being super fit, he sees far more
flowers than I do. I mostly see his rear wheel fading into the
distance -- and that dark place just before heart failure.

How is it that someone can get a two minute gap in about ten seconds?
It's bizarre. I'm going out with the old guys this weekend. It will
make me feel better about life. With them, "talking pace" means
actually talking and not gasping for air.


Admit to yourself that you, I and probably most others in this NG are
now in the geezer category. Past prime, or whatever. No matter how hard
we train we will plateau sooner than we hope for. So just enjoy that flower.

When I ride with friends I always tell them that should I pull away from
them not to redline themselves, I'll wait. Also to ask for a break
anytime they feel it would be good. It's not a race.

Sometimes it's not just the young whippersnappers who disappear in the
distance. I have a client where the president cycles and he is well
above 60. I rode with him. Once. He really puts on the coals and after
going at 25mph for about 25mins my tongue almost hung on the handlebar.
Yet he looked like he just did a walk in the park. So I politely bowed
out and rode the rest of the trip by myself, slooowly. I was done.


I ride with some fast old guys, but at least I'm in the hunt, and there is always time to recover after efforts. Not with my son. He's always trying to set Strava records. I hate Strava.

-- Jay Beattie.
  #133  
Old July 14th 18, 08:06 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 824
Default Making America into Amsterdam

On Friday, July 13, 2018 at 9:49:26 PM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, July 13, 2018 at 9:29:23 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-07-11 13:47, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/10/2018 5:04 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-07-09 12:48, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/9/2018 12:12 AM, Tim McNamara wrote:

European cities have some tendency to be more compact with shorter
rides
(1-2 km) for work and errands. American urban areas tend to be spread
out so that we can all have our half acre of lawn or more.

Where I live, a 2 km ride will get me to and from the library, our
dentist, the post office, the pharmacy and one convenience/beer store.
Hardware, groceries, restaurants, credit union or anything else is
further. I'm fine with that, but most Americans (probably like most
Europeans) will never ride 10 miles to get to and from their credit
union.


The Dutch and Belgians used to be different. 10mi, 20mi, big deal. But
can't say about today as this was 30 years ago.

Sorry, but if you mean that most Dutch and Belgians used to ride
something like 20 miles per day, I don't believe you.


Note that I didn't say "most of the population". Most of my friends,
yes. Or rather, nearly all of them. Most of the population I can't say,
of course.

Very popular was the "kroegen tocht" (pub run) by road bike, especially
among Belgians which is why I preferred to ride with them. 30-40mi with
here and there a beer. Dutch road bikers were often too competitive and
only concentrated on the sports aspects, many wouldn't ever consider
visiting a pub because that cost "valuable minutes".


Those Dutch guys should be stopping every five miles for a beer. What are they thinking?


Drinking beer during a road bike ride? Ridiculous, one of Joerg's fantasies. Very few drink a beer afterwards.

Lou
  #134  
Old July 14th 18, 03:44 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,016
Default Making America into Amsterdam

On 2018-07-13 21:10, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, July 13, 2018 at 2:03:37 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-07-13 13:35, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, July 13, 2018 at 1:09:16 PM UTC-7, duane wrote:
On 13/07/2018 3:49 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, July 13, 2018 at 9:29:23 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-07-11 13:47, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/10/2018 5:04 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-07-09 12:48, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/9/2018 12:12 AM, Tim McNamara wrote:

European cities have some tendency to be more
compact with shorter rides (1-2 km) for work and
errands. American urban areas tend to be spread out
so that we can all have our half acre of lawn or
more.

Where I live, a 2 km ride will get me to and from
the library, our dentist, the post office, the
pharmacy and one convenience/beer store. Hardware,
groceries, restaurants, credit union or anything else
is further. I'm fine with that, but most Americans
(probably like most Europeans) will never ride 10
miles to get to and from their credit union.


The Dutch and Belgians used to be different. 10mi,
20mi, big deal. But can't say about today as this was
30 years ago.

Sorry, but if you mean that most Dutch and Belgians used
to ride something like 20 miles per day, I don't believe
you.


Note that I didn't say "most of the population". Most of
my friends, yes. Or rather, nearly all of them. Most of
the population I can't say, of course.

Very popular was the "kroegen tocht" (pub run) by road
bike, especially among Belgians which is why I preferred to
ride with them. 30-40mi with here and there a beer. Dutch
road bikers were often too competitive and only
concentrated on the sports aspects, many wouldn't ever
consider visiting a pub because that cost "valuable
minutes".


Those Dutch guys should be stopping every five miles for a
beer. What are they thinking?

And when we're talking about "the Dutch and Belgians," the
assumption is that we're talking about a country average and
not your cohort of pub-crawlers. I could say Oregonians ride
hundreds of miles a week because that's what my friends do,
but it hardly describes the state average.



Wait, I thought most people in northern California went to work
on single track fighting saber tooth er mountain lions,
equipped with only a largish rock and a roofing nail as tools
but carrying multiple growlers of the local plonk. Isn't that
what they do "out there?"

I figured I was much too competitive to to be wasting
"minutes" stopping for a beer. We usually do that after the
100k or so...


Then you likely missed a lot of great pubs. We often plan our
routes so we hit a brewpub towards the end of the ride. Like the
Fair Oaks Brewpub yesterday:

https://s3-media3.fl.yelpcdn.com/bph...SJMs97RQ/o.jpg



Wow. A brew pub. http://www.portlandbeer.org/breweries This doesn't
even cover the breweries with multiple locations, like the ten
zillion McMenamins (two in walking distance from my house).



Folsom, Rancho Cordova and Placerville don't have to hide themselves
here. The density of brew pubs per 10,000 people is probably similar. On
Friday's ride we came by three other brew pubs but the problem was the
usual, they won't open before 4pm.


... I won't
stop for a brew pub. I will stop for blackberries -- and sometimes
coffee and pastry, usually on dreary winter rides. I stop at 7-11s
and country stores for water and donettes. Food of the gods.


Yuck. On long rides I carry my own food. Sandwiches, bread made from the
trub of beer, with a generous layer of cold cuts and cheeses inbetween.
The good stuff like Pecorino cheese.

Blackberries are great but for some reason there are still not ripe
along our bike trails. When they are I have become careful. Once on an
MTB trail I ate probably between a pound or two. I had to return home. Fast.


BTW, speaking of abbeys, I've ridden down to the Mt. Angel Abbey, but
never bothered getting beer.



In this area they'd take away your man card for that :-)


https://www.mountangelabbey.org/benedictine-brewery/ I placed in the
Mt. Angel criterium one year and won a box of Kettle Chips -- two
dozen giant bags. It was kind of bizarre. In fact, it was at the
Octoberfest, and I did have a beer.
https://www.travelsalem.com/sites/de...?itok=K4VH-G0O
Makes you miss your lederhosen, eh? The little downtown is kind of
hokey.


I am not much into ethnic cultural stuff, never was. Maybe I moved too much.


Like Duane, I prefer not to drink beer until the end of a ride. My
son and I tend to stop at the food carts and get lunch and ride home
with it, bags swinging from the bars for the last mile home.
https://noticingswportland.files.wor...0/p9304543.jpg


We try to always stop at a brew pub towards the end of the ride, along
the way. I never eat there but one of my friends does. During rides he
eats candy-bar style snacks and then at the Fair Oaks brew pub he ate a
big pretzel. We ride about the same number of miles/year yet he is thin
as a rail and I am not. Not fair!


The obvious premise is that "if you don't ride like me, you're a
fanatical dope." I feel the same way now that I'm old and slow.
When my son rides me off his wheel (every ride), I just say "oh,
you only care about the sports aspects . . . I'm enjoying the
scenery. Look, a flower!" The funny thing is that being super
fit, he sees far more flowers than I do. I mostly see his rear
wheel fading into the distance -- and that dark place just before
heart failure.

How is it that someone can get a two minute gap in about ten
seconds? It's bizarre. I'm going out with the old guys this
weekend. It will make me feel better about life. With them,
"talking pace" means actually talking and not gasping for air.


Admit to yourself that you, I and probably most others in this NG
are now in the geezer category. Past prime, or whatever. No matter
how hard we train we will plateau sooner than we hope for. So just
enjoy that flower.

When I ride with friends I always tell them that should I pull away
from them not to redline themselves, I'll wait. Also to ask for a
break anytime they feel it would be good. It's not a race.

Sometimes it's not just the young whippersnappers who disappear in
the distance. I have a client where the president cycles and he is
well above 60. I rode with him. Once. He really puts on the coals
and after going at 25mph for about 25mins my tongue almost hung on
the handlebar. Yet he looked like he just did a walk in the park.
So I politely bowed out and rode the rest of the trip by myself,
slooowly. I was done.


I ride with some fast old guys, but at least I'm in the hunt, and
there is always time to recover after efforts. Not with my son. He's
always trying to set Strava records. I hate Strava.


I'll probably never sign up for that. Actually can't right now because I
don't use a smart phone. It's also too competitive. As one rider
(actually the 25mph guy above) said, "It's supposed to be fun".

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #135  
Old July 14th 18, 03:53 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,016
Default Making America into Amsterdam

On 2018-07-14 00:06, wrote:
On Friday, July 13, 2018 at 9:49:26 PM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, July 13, 2018 at 9:29:23 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-07-11 13:47, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/10/2018 5:04 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-07-09 12:48, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/9/2018 12:12 AM, Tim McNamara wrote:

European cities have some tendency to be more compact
with shorter rides (1-2 km) for work and errands.
American urban areas tend to be spread out so that we can
all have our half acre of lawn or more.

Where I live, a 2 km ride will get me to and from the
library, our dentist, the post office, the pharmacy and one
convenience/beer store. Hardware, groceries, restaurants,
credit union or anything else is further. I'm fine with
that, but most Americans (probably like most Europeans)
will never ride 10 miles to get to and from their credit
union.


The Dutch and Belgians used to be different. 10mi, 20mi, big
deal. But can't say about today as this was 30 years ago.

Sorry, but if you mean that most Dutch and Belgians used to
ride something like 20 miles per day, I don't believe you.


Note that I didn't say "most of the population". Most of my
friends, yes. Or rather, nearly all of them. Most of the
population I can't say, of course.

Very popular was the "kroegen tocht" (pub run) by road bike,
especially among Belgians which is why I preferred to ride with
them. 30-40mi with here and there a beer. Dutch road bikers were
often too competitive and only concentrated on the sports
aspects, many wouldn't ever consider visiting a pub because that
cost "valuable minutes".


Those Dutch guys should be stopping every five miles for a beer.
What are they thinking?


Drinking beer during a road bike ride? Ridiculous, one of Joerg's
fantasies. Very few drink a beer afterwards.


Fantasies? With two of my riding buddies there has hardly been a ride
where we didn't stop at a brew pub. The next ride will be on very remote
MTB turf and there won't even be a water spigot anywhere. So, I am going
to carry a pre-cooled stainless thermos with homemade IPA. We'll
probably be enjoying it here, like last time:

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/SouthFork1.JPG

IPA travels remarkably well on the rack of an MTB. When I poured it
there was a good head on it and it was almost too cold so I had to warm
the cup with my hands.

Some of the Belgian groups in the 80's topped that. A few riders had a
demi-bouteille in the 2nd bottle holder. Du vin rouge, with a loose cork
in there. They let that circle once in a while. Drinking wine out of a
bottle may be bad style but it sure tasted good. Here in the US they'd
arrest you if a cop saw that.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #137  
Old July 15th 18, 02:46 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 144
Default Making America into Amsterdam

On Sat, 14 Jul 2018 20:48:15 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 7/14/2018 3:06 AM, wrote:

Drinking beer during a road bike ride? Ridiculous, one of Joerg's fantasies. Very few drink a beer afterwards.


It's vanishingly rare among the people I ride with.

There was one guy I knew well, but not as a cyclist. One day he invited
me to do a short (maybe 15 mile) ride with him, the only one we ever did
together.

To my surprise, at about 10 miles he stopped to go into a bar. The
barmaid said "Hi, Sam [not his real name], the usual?" He said yes, and
she served him a shot in a beer. As he put it "I need to get my blood
octane up for that hill on the way home." After he finished that, he had
another round.

He did make it up the hill, but I was waiting quite a long time at the
top. And years later, he was ticketed for drunk driving. I understand
he's officially an alcoholic now, and his health has nosedived as a
result. He's no longer able to ride at all.



But think how romantic it sounds. Rather like attending the
Oktoberfest with your leather pants.

On the other hand as The Bay Area Bicycle Law group reports that as
many as 19% of bike deaths, in the area in 2014, had blood alcohol
levels of 0.08 or higher, perhaps drunken cyclists aren't really
aren't really any different than any other drunken oaf.

  #138  
Old July 15th 18, 06:03 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,477
Default Making America into Amsterdam

On 7/14/2018 7:53 AM, Joerg wrote:

snip

Fantasies? With two of my riding buddies there has hardly been a ride
where we didn't stop at a brew pub. The next ride will be on very remote
MTB turf and there won't even be a water spigot anywhere. So, I am going
to carry a pre-cooled stainless thermos with homemade IPA. We'll
probably be enjoying it here, like last time:

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/SouthFork1.JPG

IPA travels remarkably well on the rack of an MTB. When I poured it
there was a good head on it and it was almost too cold so I had to warm
the cup with my hands.

Some of the Belgian groups in the 80's topped that. A few riders had a
demi-bouteille in the 2nd bottle holder. Du vin rouge, with a loose cork
in there. They let that circle once in a while. Drinking wine out of a
bottle may be bad style but it sure tasted good. Here in the US they'd
arrest you if a cop saw that.


Last year I went on a benefit ride, "Ride for Diabetes" and they served
beer at the end, and it was actually decent beer
https://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/140/3558/.




  #139  
Old July 15th 18, 02:47 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Making America into Amsterdam

On 7/14/2018 9:46 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jul 2018 20:48:15 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 7/14/2018 3:06 AM, wrote:

Drinking beer during a road bike ride? Ridiculous, one of Joerg's fantasies. Very few drink a beer afterwards.


It's vanishingly rare among the people I ride with.

There was one guy I knew well, but not as a cyclist. One day he invited
me to do a short (maybe 15 mile) ride with him, the only one we ever did
together.

To my surprise, at about 10 miles he stopped to go into a bar. The
barmaid said "Hi, Sam [not his real name], the usual?" He said yes, and
she served him a shot in a beer. As he put it "I need to get my blood
octane up for that hill on the way home." After he finished that, he had
another round.

He did make it up the hill, but I was waiting quite a long time at the
top. And years later, he was ticketed for drunk driving. I understand
he's officially an alcoholic now, and his health has nosedived as a
result. He's no longer able to ride at all.



But think how romantic it sounds. Rather like attending the
Oktoberfest with your leather pants.

On the other hand as The Bay Area Bicycle Law group reports that as
many as 19% of bike deaths, in the area in 2014, had blood alcohol
levels of 0.08 or higher, perhaps drunken cyclists aren't really
aren't really any different than any other drunken oaf.


And a few years ago, a Dr. Crocker of Austin Texas did a study of all
bike injuries in Austin hospitals. His objective was to show that bike
helmets were effective, as part of his long-time efforts in favor of
mandatory bike helmet laws for all ages.

Instead, his paper showed that helmets did not correlate with a
reduction in head injuries at a statistically significant level. But his
study was one of the very first to also track blood alcohol levels in
injured cyclists, and it showed statistically significant correlation
between alcohol and head injury - or maybe brain injury, I forget which.


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #140  
Old July 15th 18, 03:48 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,016
Default Making America into Amsterdam

On 2018-07-14 22:03, sms wrote:
On 7/14/2018 7:53 AM, Joerg wrote:

snip

Fantasies? With two of my riding buddies there has hardly been a ride
where we didn't stop at a brew pub. The next ride will be on very
remote MTB turf and there won't even be a water spigot anywhere. So, I
am going to carry a pre-cooled stainless thermos with homemade IPA.
We'll probably be enjoying it here, like last time:

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/SouthFork1.JPG

IPA travels remarkably well on the rack of an MTB. When I poured it
there was a good head on it and it was almost too cold so I had to
warm the cup with my hands.

Some of the Belgian groups in the 80's topped that. A few riders had a
demi-bouteille in the 2nd bottle holder. Du vin rouge, with a loose
cork in there. They let that circle once in a while. Drinking wine out
of a bottle may be bad style but it sure tasted good. Here in the US
they'd arrest you if a cop saw that.


Last year I went on a benefit ride, "Ride for Diabetes" and they served
beer at the end, and it was actually decent beer
https://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/140/3558/.


Once I saw a photo from a Paris-Brest-Paris race and a rider was coming
out of a pub, Belgian beer in hand, all smiles. Savoir vivre.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
 




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