The Perfect Commuter Bike For The Masses?

On Tue, 27 Jan 2009 10:02:50 -0800 (PST), landotter
may have said:

On Jan 27, 11:53 am, Werehatrack wrote:
On Mon, 26 Jan 2009 10:44:15 -0800 (PST), Chalo
may have said:

The Townie is a nice bike. I think the one-size thing it has in
common with cruisers and BSOs is a serious handicap for it. If you
wanna sell blue jeans, you have to make more than one size.

Concur on the Townie's results for the nontradtional market; for those
who are the right size for it, the bike is exactly the kind of
low-stress ride that makes non-cyclists comfortable, which is half the
battle in getting them out riding. My SO has been lusting after one
for a while, but the budget is just too tight to allow contemplation
of it right now.

D. sells a ton of them at the LBS, often with a nice clip on basket.
They're the sweetest thing out there for getting old farts and even
young folks back on bikes. Being able to plant your feet is very
comforting.

The three speed is ~$500. Pretty reasonable, but the thing with
Townies is that you can get all of the addictive accessories. Soon
she'll be demanding streamers and an embossed leather saddle. ;-)

The streamers had already been mentioned. Purple ones. No embossed
leather saddle, though.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

landotter wrote:

The Kmart four miles out from here is stocking these now:

http://www.kmart.com/shc/s/p_10151_1...W193358110001P

Sure--there's some real crap on them--but at least you're starting
with something that's repairable. A $400 Schwinn World from the LBS is
a better value--but sometimes ya just don't got 400 bux.

I've seen the Schwinn World Avenue 1 on sale at Performance, with their
various discounts and Performance Club 10% rebate, for well under $300,
though not right now. The Sears near me had the Huffy Magellan last
year. It really looked horrible, but maybe some of that was how poorly
it was assembled.

The problem with many of the so-called "commuter bikes" is that they're
designed for fairly flat commutes, which limits their use for
non-commute rides that have some steep hills. I went through this last
year when the spousal unit wanted a low-standover height "women's" bike
for commuting, and wanted something with more cruiser style handlebars.
I was looking for something that she could also ride on weekend rides
where we encounter more hilly terrain.

I ended up getting her a K2 T9 Myste, which had the type of handlerbars
she wanted, and still had proper gearing, but no chain guard. She's
happy with using leg bands. This was the only bicycle I could find that
was "cruiser-like" but that still had full-range gearing with a triple
crankset in the front. "http://i37.tinypic.com/24awjn6.jpg". $337 on sale.

There were a couple of Mixte frame bicycles I saw at Interbike that were
beautiful, but it really costs to be retro-cool. Also, though not a
Mixte, the Pashley roadsters were very nice (and very expensive).

"http://nordicgroup.us/interbike2008/IMG_0902.JPG"
"http://nordicgroup.us/interbike2008/IMG_0938.JPG"

Tom Sherman wrote:
Andrew Muzi wrote:
bicycle_disciple wrote:
I suppose not many of you may have heard about an award winning, yet
controversial commuter bike design that was recently hosted on the
Bicycle Design blog. The winning concept was a recumbent bike, with a
roof on it. Proposed transmission was a belt drive and all the lights
of the bike would be powered by a solar panel on the roof!
An analysis from a human factors and cost standpoint was done here
:http://tinyurl.com/ag8sdd.
Comments and thoughts are welcome here or in the blog.
The apparent practical disadvantages are many, but the designer is
supposedly going to work towards improving the concept and bring
out a
prototype. When we don't know.

landotter wrote:
Bike design isn't what's keeping folks from cycling. However--the
design you linked to would do a great job making cycling less
popular--
as it would be invariably more intimidating and expensive compared to
traditional bikes.

Chalo wrote:
Let's not forget cumbersome, slow, heavy, difficult to work on, damage-
prone, ill-handling, treacherous in gusting winds (or amidst passing
cars and trucks), and ugly. It would introduce the new and unwelcome
element of roof fit to the already demanding number of fit issues we
face as cyclists.
The yokels who hatched this idea need to spend a month or more getting
around on a Surrey or a Rhodes Car as part of their re-education.

Jay Beattie wrote:
And they should be required to wear signs on their backs saying "Look
at me. I'm a dork." -- Jay Beattie.


The vehicle alone would say it well without embellishment.

More dorky than this:
http://www.ransbikes.com/Gallery/Archive/images/Sherman1.jpg?


I can't see your 'renewable energy' roof in that shot.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

wrote:
On Jan 26, 3:38 pm, Eric Vey wrote:
wrote:
When I commute in the winter, its an hour before sunrise. And my bike
stays in the garage overnight. Kind of hard to have working solar
powered lights with no sunlight. During the day the bike sits outside
so it could charge up a battery and power the lights on the way home,
in the dark an hour after the sun has gone down. But during the day
its 0 F outside so the battery may not take or hold much of a charge
for powering lights. Batteries stink in cold. This solar powered
light concept doesn't seem to be very well thought out.
d
"But during the day
its 0 F outside so the battery may not take or hold much of a charge
for powering lights. Batteries stink in cold. This solar powered
light concept doesn't seem to be very well thought out."

Sounds more like the decision about where you live is the thing that
wasn't very well thought out.

I love New England, including the record cold winter (2002?) I spent
living aboard a boat in Boston Harbor. The cold isn't bad if you know
how to dress for it.

Exactly. There are lots of things that aren't practical in all climates.
But to say something "is not well thought out" because of where you live
is pretty dumb.

On Jan 27, 12:17 pm, Ecnerwal
wrote:
In article
,

" wrote:
The problem is I can't seem to find any monocoques for under $5K, with
most being more like 10K ($US).

Oh - I thought you were building one, applying the knowledge of:

composites, batteries and electric motors

You picked up from R/C planes. Foam or wood core composites lead
naturally to monocoque construction for a one-off home built. If you're
going to limit yourself to buying one off the shelf, the options narrow
considerably.

I might be. Or, I might buy one. As I said, I'm seeing that building
one could be as costly as buying one. I think building a monocoque
would be a hugely intensive project, however, with getting the front
end right and whatnot. Building a composite shell over an existing
trike would probably be a much more manageable project, as has been
suggested earlier in this thread.

On Jan 27, 12:44 pm, Peter Cole wrote:
wrote:
On Jan 27, 10:58 am, Peter Cole wrote:
I've been contemplating adding an electric motor to my 20' (moored)
sailboat. I have the motor, batteries are cheap, the only wrinkle would
be recharging between (weekly, typically) uses. I might get away with a
cheap solar panel for that.- Hide quoted text -

Typical electric trolling-style motor, or something crazy and home-
brewed?

Just a simple Minn-Kota (600W/55 lb thrust), but a sal****er model. I
may retrofit a switching regulator between it & the battery, they're
very cheap these days, made by the millions in China for e-bikes/scooters.

Cool. Minn-Kota makes a pretty good electric motor.


I've become something of a purist sailor over the years. I used to carry
an outboard, but I came to really dislike it & storing fuel for it.
Electric motors aren't really a pragmatic alternative for traveling any
distance, but might be worthwhile to get around the harbor & dock. I
don't know, I figured I would try it since I already had the stuff. I
often sail solo, and setting an anchor or docking a 3,000 lb boat under
sail alone is sometimes more than I'm in the mood for.

I'm making the transition slowly. I grew up a marina rat, but all
powerboats. Did a bit of sailing a sunfish with a buddy when I was a
kid, and did some windsurfing later on, but that was it. It wasn't
until I was a liveaboard hanging out with real sailors that I ever
paid any real attention to sailboats. Then, recently, I decided I
wanted a sailboat. Looked into it a bit, got the bug big time and
picked up an inexpensive Mac 25 in need of a restoration. I've been
sail-crazy since, reading, talking to sailors, and getting the boat
ready for this summer. Fortunately, most of the work transitions over
from what I know about powerboats. The only stuff that needs to be
done that doesn't transfer over is the replacement of the rigging. I
found a running rigging kit for it pretty cheap, and a sailor friend
of mine is following up some more local leads before I pull the
trigger on that for sure. Then we need to measure the standing
rigging, as most of it was missing, and order that up. Outside of
that stuff it's all typical "boat work" - some sanding, painting,
fiberglass, cushion recovering, etc. Oh, and I need a sail cover, but
fortunately that's a pretty straightforward item to buy. I'd like to
be sail-only, but even the best of sailors couldn't go some of the
places I want to take this under sail alone. Bridges, mooring zones,
and tight rivers wouldn't allow it. Plus, I still need to get good at
the whole sailing thing. Outboards for me for a while yet, I think.


I bought the electric motor on a whim, mostly to drive a 10.5' skiff I
built. I was pretty skeptical about electrics, despite being an EE.
After one season I have to admit my mind has been totally changed. I was
completely taken by surprise by just how pleasant ghosting along with an
absolutely silent motor turned out to be. Kind of like sailing under the
best conditions. It's made me rethink the whole electric vehicle concept.

That's what made me rethink the sailing concept. The quiet ride, just
the sounds of the wind in the sails and the water on the hull, and
measuring destinations not in hundreds of fuel dollars but rather in
nautical miles or hours.


This spring I plan to make a catamaran double kayak type boat
specifically for electric drive. I figure I can double my hull speed
over the skiff. Where I now typically cover a dozen miles in an outing I
can double that, running the length of the river (Charles) and going out
into the harbor. I'm afraid that I may like that so much that I'll give
up the sailboat I've owned for 35 years.

That'll be sweet. When I was living aboard I was @ Constitution &
Shipyard Quarters marina's. I loved the Charles, but the view of the
city from the harbor over by East Boston and out by the islands is
unbeatable. Cruising out to the islands to putter around is awesome
too. I'm sure you already know all this from your sailboat. Man, I
miss it. At least now if I want to cruise down to Boston Harbor & the
islands I'll be measuring in miles and hours, not hundreds of dollars
in fuel. Might be a bit much of a trip for me this summer, we'll
see.


I usually tow the skiff with a bike trailer I built, I plan to do the
same with the catamaran. I may make the (new) trailer electric powered
as well, which would extend my selection of launch sites. The
combination of biking and boating has been brilliant. We can be in the
water and underway 15 min after deciding to go. No worries about crowds
at the launch ramps and we can launch in areas with no ramps or even roads.

That's awesome. I've always meant to use my bike to transport my
kayak, but never have since I'm always going with someone, and they
rarely have the desire to bike to the launch point at all, much less
hauling a kayak. There's also the issue of leaving the bikes. It's
always been easier to just throw them into the bed of my truck and
jump in. This summer I'm going to make a point of using the bike to
kayak at least a few times.

landotter wrote:
Right now, I can send a noob down to the LBS to pick up an Electra
Townie w/ fenders and a nice shopping basket for $600 in a friendly
light metallic blue. However--as practical as that bike is--it's not
flying off the shelf--which has very little to do with the bike's
design or affordability.

Eric Vey wrote:
Maybe it is affordable for you, but in these parts $600 is some
"serious" money. Most bikes around here, and I suspect where you are
too, are sold at the $100-200 price range. The Doral/Pacific Cycle
brands still out sell all others 10:1.
So if a design can't get it's price down to what people casually see
when they pass by the recreation department on their way to buy a
Tom-Tom, people will say it is overpriced.

Tom Sherman
Instead of the fake MTB at Sprawl-Mart, a decent quality "roadster" for
the same cost would be much better for the transportation cyclist.

"landotter" wrote:
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/produ...uct_id=2061606
the mart bikes are getting better and better.

Tom Sherman wrote:
I would lose the suspension for racks, fenders and internal gears.
I was thinking of a modernized version of this:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/EASTMAN.HTML.

The venerable Raleigh DL-1 and its myriad copies until at least recently
accounted for over half the bicycles ever made, so at least some large
number of riders liked (or settled for) them.

That's nearly over. After ~100 years, the rapid price drop and
ubiquitous availability of mopeds and small cars has killed that market.
In India and China, kids don't want 'old style' bikes, they prefer
'American style' bikes such as landotter linked. Factories which made
Roadsters for generations are changing to those, mopeds or simply
closing now.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Jan 27, 11:24*am, landotter wrote:
On Jan 27, 11:20 am, SMS wrote:

landotter wrote:
Right now, I can send a noob down to the LBS to pick up an Electra
Townie w/ fenders and a nice shopping basket for $600 in a friendly
light metallic blue. However--as practical as that bike is--it's not
flying off the shelf--which has very little to do with the bike's
design or affordability.

I question your perception that a $600 Electra is seen as affordable.

It's very affordable and a lot cheaper than the dental work incurred
by riding a $300 rod-braked piece of ****. $500 buys a lot of bike
these days and is not a lot of money--you just have to save a little
bit if you're a worker bee. That's a week's pay for a person that
works at the local grocery. For a vehicle.

$500 would be a weeks gross pay for a local grocery store worker. And
$500 is probably high. That is $26,000 annual gross. Before living
expenses like rent and groceries and state and federal taxes. $26,000
is actually a fair amount of money. As shown by this link posted
above, $26,000 annual income is equal to the 39th per capita income
state in the US, Oklahoma. There are still 11 other states where
people earn less on average. $500 net after all other expenses is a
fair amount of money for quite a large percent of the US population.

http://www.census.gov/statab/ranks/rank29.html

On Jan 27, 1:02*pm, Ron Ruff wrote:
wrote:
I wonder about doing a basic shaped shell out of aluminum or very thin
wood strapping, or even PVC, then laying fiberglass or CF over that,
and stretching poly or even sections of window from a junkyard-
salvaged convertable car top?

The BlueSky guy makes bubble tops.

Does he? I see a canpoy, body shell and belly pan, combined for $1000
before shipping, but don't see a bubble top, which seems like the one
thing that kit is missing. Additionally, his site is really lacking
in info about the HPV vehicle kit. Too bad, because with more detail
I might be tempted to get one. Especially if it came with a bubble
top. I'm also not a fan of the tinted windshield on the fairing,
since I do a lot of riding after dark.


If you'd really like to do it yourself, maybe a thin marine plywood
shell with fiberglass over the top would be good. For the windshield
you could curve a piece of thin Lexan around the front and sides, and
use plywood/fiberglass for the top.

I considered that, but I'd still have plywood on the inside, and even
thin marine plywood is not light. I figure for the same weight I
could probably get away with an extremely thin shell, just enoughy to
lay glass or CF on, with fiberglass or CF on the inside and out.
Probably FG, unless I could find a source to get CF cloth really cheap
buying quite a bit of it. I know in small pieces (like you'd buy for
an RC plane application) it's quite expensive.

On Jan 27, 12:56*pm, Ron Ruff wrote:
wrote:
I'm not really sure. *I know I'd want something fully enclosed for
weather protection, with the ability to add batteries and an electric
motor (something I could probably do to most of them). *Outside of
that it would come down to whatever would be least expensive to buy or
build while still being a decent ride. *I wouldn't want a total
klunker that was miserable to ride and way too heavy to cover distance
with, but at the same time I wouldn't want to spend thousands and
thousands to find out if I liked it. *It's too bad I can't seem to
find much in the way of used stuff with simple gear. *I'd have no
issues spending $ to upgrade as I got more and more into it, but the
initial investment is fairly brutal from what I've seen.

Some parts can be had hehttp://www.blueskydsn.com/kit.html

I'd seriously consider making it a pure electric and ditching the
pedals and such...

I want to be able to power it myself, for exercize and range reasons.
It will also help with legalities. Without pedals I'm limited to
20MPH, and probably run into issues anyway. With pedals I am only
motor limited to 20MPH, what I can work it up to on the long flats or
downhills is completely up to me.