"Geeze, unclip already!"

Roger Zoul wrote:

It doesn't matter if you can do one not, it's not a good idea on a road
filled with lots of traffic at a stop light. I routinely "hover" near stop
signs if I'm the only one there or if there is only one car that I'm waiting
on so I can get through an intersection.

Roger, this notion that it is somehow dangerous
or ill-advised to do track stands around car traffic is ridiculous.
We are no more likely to topple over while track standing than
we would be when simply riding down the street.

I do think that track-standing can confuse drivers at stop signed
intersections, because it can seem like the rider is on the verge
of taking off. And at any intersection where the rider has to wait,
track stands are of little real value except as entertainment for the
rider. Even very good track standers will save energy by putting a
foot down, imo, if the wait is longer than 10 or 20 seconds.
But intrinsically dangerous or disruptive to traffic at a signalled
intersection? No.

I'm don't seee how it matters if you're dubious of someone else's handling
skills, if those skills serve the person in question. Surely you're not
suggesting that doing a track stand in traffic on a busy road is a necessary
skill, right?

You would be surprised at how often I use a sort of
mini track stand, complete stop for several seconds
then taking off, in heavy stop-and-go traffic or around
lots of pedestrians. Not having to clip out in these
situations is a huge advantage.

Robert

My argument is that whatever the cause that this was not a horribly
unsafe event and is not a good example of irresponsible cycling.
I suggest therapy.

You are right: not the worst possible behavior. And certainly being
able to ride your bike at near zero speeds is essential, useful, and
expected by motorists. There's not a clear cut line between a slow
down, a pause while balancing, and holding the balance for longer than
necessary. I do appreciate your civil and well reasoned defense of
track standers, and I feel bad whenever anyone gets injured, whether
they are at fault or not. Good riding to you.

Mort

p.s. Riding is therapy.

mort wrote:
big snip


p.s. Riding is therapy.

Amen to that!!!!

wrote:
:: Roger Zoul wrote:
::
::: It doesn't matter if you can do one not, it's not a good idea on a
::: road filled with lots of traffic at a stop light. I routinely
::: "hover" near stop signs if I'm the only one there or if there is
::: only one car that I'm waiting on so I can get through an
::: intersection.
::
:: Roger, this notion that it is somehow dangerous
:: or ill-advised to do track stands around car traffic is ridiculous.
:: We are no more likely to topple over while track standing than
:: we would be when simply riding down the street.
::
:: I do think that track-standing can confuse drivers at stop signed
:: intersections, because it can seem like the rider is on the verge
:: of taking off. And at any intersection where the rider has to wait,
:: track stands are of little real value except as entertainment for the
:: rider. Even very good track standers will save energy by putting a
:: foot down, imo, if the wait is longer than 10 or 20 seconds.
:: But intrinsically dangerous or disruptive to traffic at a signalled
:: intersection? No.
::
::: I'm don't seee how it matters if you're dubious of someone else's
::: handling skills, if those skills serve the person in question.
::: Surely you're not suggesting that doing a track stand in traffic on
::: a busy road is a necessary skill, right?
::
:: You would be surprised at how often I use a sort of
:: mini track stand, complete stop for several seconds
:: then taking off, in heavy stop-and-go traffic or around
:: lots of pedestrians. Not having to clip out in these
:: situations is a huge advantage.
::
:: Robert

Okay...since you insist that it's not dangerous and you obviously do it,
I'll take your word for it.

Curiously, this discussion reminds of me one we had months ago (with gds in
the middle of it ) about wearing iPod earbuds at low volume while riding.
Some claimed it was outright dangerous while in my experience (and that of
others), it's not, if done properly. I'm claiming here that a trackstand
could be dangerous only in the event that a rider falls while doing one on a
busy street with narrow lanes. Will that definitely happen? Not at all.
Could it happen? Yes, and it could depend on the skill of the rider. Will
someone get hurt because of that? Who knows? I can see it happening -
depending on conditions - such as inattentive drivers & unfortunate timing.
I think similar statments could be made about wearing an iPod for different
riders under different conditions.

gds wrote:
:: mort wrote:
::::
:::: I'm going to bet that all this negativity comes mostly from folks
:::: who have tried track stands and can't do them. To some of us they
:::: are just another cycling skill to be mastered.
:::
::: I think the negativity comes from cyclists who ride in a predictable
::: and law abiding manner who are sick of being lumped with the morons
::: by motorists. Here's another example: about an hour after writing
::: my post above, I'm riding home from work. I'm passed on my way
::: into a T intersection by a cyclist in full lycra, etc. The T
::: intersection has a left turn lane, and a right turn lane. The guy
::: rides up to the red light, unclips and waits to make his left turn.
::: (so far so good). There is a car behind him in the left turn lane,
::: and a car on his right in the right turn lane, waiting for a clear
::: spot in the traffic to make a legal right turn. There are also
::: cars that have the green light waiting to make a left turn, out in
::: the middle of the intersection. So the light for the moving
::: traffic lanes turns yellow, the traffic from the left stops, and
::: the two cars waiting to make a left turn start to complete their
::: turns and clear the intersection. While the light is still yellow,
::: the cyclist mounts up, swerves to the right directly in front of
::: the car waiting to make a right turn, and cuts between the first
::: and second cars trying to complete their left turns. Everyone
::: honks and swears at him - he rides off the left without looking
::: back. All he had to do was wait another 1 or 2 seconds and make his
::: left turn and no one would have been bothered. If this was the
::: only time I had ever seen this kind of thing then I wouldn't bother
::: to write about it, but we all know that there are many cyclists who
::: treat traffic laws and etiquette with utter disregard, and that
::: this heavily influences motorist behavior.
:::
::: So back to gds and his track stands: I'm very glad you have
::: mastered this essential skill. I hope that you employ it often
::: during your match sprints ON THE TRACK. It has no place in road
::: riding, as motorists don't have the foggiest idea what you are up
::: to. Just unclip and stop - every car can understand that. It's
::: not that hard, dude. Unclip the shoe. Stop the bike. Clip in and
::: pedal when the light turns green. You can do it.
:::
::: Mort
::
:: Still awfully judgemental. Your example starts out with the
:: implication that because the cyclist was wearing lycra he was
:: already prone to doing something stupid.
::
:: Here's the problem from my point of view. I have no argument tht
:: cyclists who do dangerous things on the road not only create specific
:: dangerous situations but their actions also serve to diminish the
:: status od all cyclists. OK, we all agree on that.
::
:: But the current topic is about a cyclist perhaps doing a track stand,
:: perhaps having difficulty unclipping, but in any case this happened
:: while stopped at a red light while in the proper lane. He happened to
:: fall.
::
:: My argument is that whatever the cause that this was not a horribly
:: unsafe event and is not a good example of irresponsible cycling.
:: Others are comparing it (by implication) to running a red light,
:: weaving in and out of traffic lanes, cutting people off, etc. There
:: is a real qualitative difference between the OP's eaxample and all
:: the others. As some other posters have mentioned folks regularly use
:: track stands on the road without mishap. It is NOT intrinsically
:: unsafe. If you feel that they are unsafe you simply don't have
:: experience with them. What I am reading in this thread is some sort
:: of anger that is being generalized to folks who don't do exactly as
:: some posters want. Roger goes so far as imply that because of my
:: opinion of track stands that if I get hurt no one should care.

Sorry, you misunderstood me. I said:

: Fine. Just make sure you don't ever fall on a narrow road with lots of
: traffic trying to get by. I don't think anyone would care.

I meant that I don't think anyone would care if you did a track stand as
long as you didn't fall.

::
:: I suggest therapy.

I suggest not taking things so personally.

In article . com,
writes:

I do think that track-standing can confuse drivers at stop signed
intersections, because it can seem like the rider is on the verge
of taking off.

I think what really confuses and perhaps annoys drivers is when
a cyclist at an intersection, first in line at the stop line and
waiting for a traffic light or a break in the cross traffic, orbits
around in circles. Especially when they encroach over the cross-traffic
line, or into the other side of the street they're on. When they're
riding around in circles like that, there's no indication of which
direction they ultimately intend to go.


cheers,
Tom

--
-- Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

waiting for a red light to turn green is extremely boring. Especially
those lights where there is no street crossing to the right, only to
the left, and if you are in the bike lane your chances of interfering
with a car turning from the left are small anyway. But I stop on all
lights to give motorists a message that I am responsible. And I am
practicing my balance skills to entertain myslef during those
devastatingly long 20 seconds which I'd rather spend self-propelling
myself. And yes, my balance totally sucks. But so far I've been able to
unclip right before embarassing myself.

wrote in message
ups.com...

I do think that track-standing can confuse drivers at stop signed
intersections, because it can seem like the rider is on the verge
of taking off.

Yup. though this was in a parking lot I was attempting to not go feet down
waiting for the kar that arrived at the all-stop first to go. "He" seemed
uncertain about my intentions and did not want to go.

As fun as trying to balance might be, a foot down give a clear indication
to others at the intersection that you are stopped for certain.

recycled-one wrote:

wrote in message
ups.com...

I do think that track-standing can confuse drivers at stop signed
intersections, because it can seem like the rider is on the verge
of taking off.

Yup. though this was in a parking lot I was attempting to not go feet down
waiting for the kar that arrived at the all-stop first to go. "He" seemed
uncertain about my intentions and did not want to go.

As fun as trying to balance might be, a foot down give a clear indication
to others at the intersection that you are stopped for certain.


All of us can recall personal experiences with cagers who gave us little/no
consideration. But the opposite situation - getting too much consideration -
can also be problematic, as your story points out.

Can't count the number of times I've stopped on the edge of the road - or on a
sidewalk, at a corner! - to take a breather and think about something for a
moment, one foot down, and had a driver stop at a sign - or just stop! - and
stare at me instead of going on his/her way. In several instances drivers
pulled away only after I let go of the bars, straddled the bike, crossed my arms
on my chest, and looked the other way. Then there are the rare times when I'm
riding in the street; I want to turn left, and am decelerating at the carefully
computed rate that will bring me to my turning point right *after* all
approaching vehicles have passed it (thus avoiding the need for me to stop);
what happens? A driver balks, seemingly convinced that I will turn in front of
him, and screws up the careful plan.

--
Michael