PowerCranks Study

Phil Holman writes:

It takes one or two rides to master the technique. It takes several
weeks/months to condition the muscles to do this continuously for
several miles. Independently learnable you say, extremely unlikely I
say, and especially for someone with limited trainability.

So how long would it take the top professional bicycle racers to
master these cranks? I believe your estimate may be correct but why
would one want to go through this bizarre learning drill? Are
proponents of the human flight project unaware that power output for
humans was studied to death there and that conventional pedaling in
the upright position came out as the optimum. What you suggest
implies that McCready didn't know what he was doing with the gossamer
albatross.

I stand by my statement that the core technique of lifting on the
upstroke can be learned without the need for the added gadget. I
believe the statements of Bauer (et al) to be adequate evidence.

Seasoned cyclists (so called trained using one legged drills) can barely
complete 200 meters without hamstrings and hip flexors giving out.

So apparently a seasoned bicyclist doesn't need to do such work with
his legs or they could do that.

To think that these muscles can be called upon to provide
significant contribution in a sustained climb without being
adequately trained is a stretch, don't you think.

Have you talked to Lance Armstrong about this because it would most
likely assure a sixth TdF win if he were to avail himself of such a
large advantage in pedaling power.

Jobst Brandt

wrote in message ...
N? Crowley writes:

No but I have an interesting pedaling technique which almost
reverses the rowing technique, instead of the arms applying the
power to the oars, the feet apply the power to the pedals while
making maximum use of arm pulling up power to increase that pedal
power whenever the necessity for this extra power arises.

That's interesting. Well trained bicycle racers do not pull up on the
bars at all. The bars are used in sprinting or steep climbing while
standing in order to counter the torque of pulling up on the rear
pedal. This is done by pushing down with one hand and pulling up with
the other, the push being grater than the pull. If this were not down
the rider would fall off the bicycle. This is not work because the
arms do not articulate while providing this counter force. However,
for the longer term, a gear is selected that does not require pulling
up on pedals. That's the reason for gears.





No cyclist pulls up on the bars when riding at speed in the saddle
because
when using the normal round or natural pedaling style, it is
impossible.
By mentally switching to a linear technique when generating and
applying the
power to the pedals, everything changes and what was impossible
becomes possible. The upper body arm power that you would use to power
hand cranks
can be biomechanically combined with the leg power to not only
increase the
overall pedal power but also eliminate the 11 to 1 o'clock dead spot
area, giving continuous power application to the pedals. But first you
need to be
a good round pedaler because the most beneficial pedaling is as much
mental
as physical and to get that message across to you Powercranks would be
needed for a year or two.

On Sun, 05 Oct 2003 21:51:55 GMT, "Phil Holman"
wrote:


"Werehatrack" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 05 Oct 2003 20:13:39 GMT, may
have said:




I stand by my statement that the core technique of lifting on the
upstroke can be learned without the need for the added gadget. I
believe the statements of Bauer (et al) to be adequate evidence.

Seasoned cyclists (so called trained using one legged drills) can barely
complete 200 meters without hamstrings and hip flexors giving out. To
think that these muscles can be called upon to provide significant
contribution in a sustained climb without being adequately trained is a
stretch, don't you think.

Phil Holman


My 2¢ ...

I don't think I get the point in the above but that has never
stopped me yet...

I was trained using one legged drills ... I'm now old and way
lame but I still can do much more than 200 meters... my biggest
issue is pulling out of my SPD pedals on the upstroke.

At issue I suppose is what is significant, I don't think any
increase is insignificant. I also don't think you need a gizmo to
learn to do this.

On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 06:27:13 GMT, may
have said:

Oh no! That's too simple. The rider must pull back, pull up and push
forward over the top with no lapse or he must stop and re-orient the
cranks.

Well, the only part of that which apparently isn't already
independently advocated by people who have no apparent connection to
Powercranks is the push forward. and somehow I don't think that one
small increment could make any difference. We're really on the same
page about the idea that this gadget is more of an aggravation than a
boon, in any event. It's only the contention that the learned
technique is of value which you seem to maintain is inherently
useless, and there are quite evidently racers who do, in fact, use it.
The fact that Lance Armstrong did something that appears incompatible
with its usage in some instance does not prove anything; he very well
*may* be using it where appropriate. I'm quite certain he does a lot
of things that are not apparent at a distance of a few yard behind
him, let alone a separation of several thousand miles.

--
My email address is antispammed;
pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Yes, I have a killfile. If I don't respond to something,
it's also possible that I'm busy.

wrote:
Werehatrack writes anonymously:



Here's one statement:


"Steve Bauer, a pro racer and a Canadian silver medalist in the
1984 Olympics says on the topic of climbing technique: "You may
want to stand at first to rest the muscles you were using on the
flat," says Bauer. "The last thing you want to do is get into
trouble early on a long climb."


"Bauer suggests doing most of your work in the saddle, as you don't
waste energy suspending your body and you have a longer power cycle
available. "At the bottom of the stroke, pull back with your
hamstrings," he explains. "Then use your hip flexors to lift
up through the top of the stroke."


That's from http://www.bicyclesource.com/you/roa...climbing.shtml,
but there are others.


Well too bad Lance Armstrong didn't know this. As you see, on the
most important mountain stage, the one on which he fell, he rode
standing most of the way. You can be damn sure he didn't use the
PowerCrank method.



I have no doubt that Bauer et al. themselves believe in the above
technique. But athletes believe in anything to get a mental edge, since
margins at the top are so small. Finnish x-country skiers believed a
special cow milk did all kinds of wonders. (Please, no debates on that!)
The perception may have little to do with actual efficient power outpout.

Didn't someone on this group quote a study of pedaling technique and
where in the pedal stroke the power is generated, regardless of how
circular the rider thinks he is?

Jan Lindström

N? Crowley writes:

No but I have an interesting pedaling technique which almost
reverses the rowing technique, instead of the arms applying the
power to the oars, the feet apply the power to the pedals while
making maximum use of arm pulling up power to increase that pedal
power whenever the necessity for this extra power arises.

That's interesting. Well trained bicycle racers do not pull up on
the bars at all. The bars are used in sprinting or steep climbing
while standing in order to counter the torque of pulling up on the
rear pedal. This is done by pushing down with one hand and pulling
up with the other, the push being grater than the pull. If this
were not down the rider would fall off the bicycle. This is not
work because the arms do not articulate while providing this
counter force. However, for the longer term, a gear is selected
that does not require pulling up on pedals. That's the reason for
gears.

No cyclist pulls up on the bars when riding at speed in the saddle
because when using the normal round or natural pedaling style, it is
impossible.

They don't pull up on the bars when standing either. As I said they
push down and pull up on the opposite sides of the bars to counter
the torque of pedaling.


By mentally switching to a linear technique when generating and
applying the power to the pedals, everything changes and what was
impossible becomes possible.

I don't know what your "linear technique" is but I am sure it makes no
difference to the subject at hand, which is that bicyclists do not
introduce power to bicycle propulsion with their arms. Work is done
by moving a force through a distance. The arms supply a static
counter force to pedaling but the muscles do not extend or contract in
that effort. The bicycle is leaned to the left or the right in the
neutral phase are the top of the pedal stroke and therefore does not
constitute muscular work although it requires strength.

The upper body arm power that you would use to power hand cranks can
be biomechanically combined with the leg power to not only increase
the overall pedal power but also eliminate the 11 to 1 o'clock dead
spot area, giving continuous power application to the pedals.

Can you explain how static arm force propels the bicycle.

But first you need to be a good round pedaler because the most
beneficial pedaling is as much mental as physical and to get that
message across to you PowerCranks would be needed for a year or two.

The case for "round pedaling" is a tenuous as that of ankling. If you
observe proficient riders in a TT, you'll notice that they don't
"round pedal" something that is evident from upper body motion as they
throw their weight on the downward pedal.

Jobst Brandt

wrote in message
...
Phil Holman writes:

It takes one or two rides to master the technique. It takes several
weeks/months to condition the muscles to do this continuously for
several miles. Independently learnable you say, extremely unlikely I
say, and especially for someone with limited trainability.

So how long would it take the top professional bicycle racers to
master these cranks? I believe your estimate may be correct but why
would one want to go through this bizarre learning drill? Are
proponents of the human flight project unaware that power output for
humans was studied to death there and that conventional pedaling in
the upright position came out as the optimum. What you suggest
implies that McCready didn't know what he was doing with the gossamer
albatross.

I stand by my statement that the core technique of lifting on the
upstroke can be learned without the need for the added gadget. I
believe the statements of Bauer (et al) to be adequate evidence.

Seasoned cyclists (so called trained using one legged drills) can
barely
complete 200 meters without hamstrings and hip flexors giving out.

So apparently a seasoned bicyclist doesn't need to do such work with
his legs or they could do that.

To think that these muscles can be called upon to provide
significant contribution in a sustained climb without being
adequately trained is a stretch, don't you think.

Have you talked to Lance Armstrong about this because it would most
likely assure a sixth TdF win if he were to avail himself of such a
large advantage in pedaling power.

Fat cats don't hunt, Ulrich might be a better prospect. Check out the
data I posted in a later thread.

Phil Holman

RE/
Let's not
get pedaling rate confused with "round pedaling", a subject similar to
the study of ankling of the past.

I think I had "spin" mixed up with "round pedaling".
--
PeteCresswell

Jobst Brandt wrote:
N? Crowley writes:
No but I have an interesting pedaling technique which almost
reverses the rowing technique, instead of the arms applying the
power to the oars, the feet apply the power to the pedals while
making maximum use of arm pulling up power to increase that pedal
power whenever the necessity for this extra power arises.
That's interesting. Well trained bicycle racers do not pull up on the
bars at all. The bars are used in sprinting or steep climbing while
standing in order to counter the torque of pulling up on the rear
pedal. This is done by pushing down with one hand and pulling up with
the other, the push being grater than the pull. If this were not down
the rider would fall off the bicycle. This is not work because the
arms do not articulate while providing this counter force. However,
for the longer term, a gear is selected that does not require pulling
up on pedals. That's the reason for gears.
No cyclist pulls up on the bars when riding at speed in the saddle
because when using the normal round or natural pedaling style, it is
impossible.
They don't pull up on the bars when standing either. As I said they push
down and pull up on the opposite sides of the bars to counter the torque
of pedaling.
By mentally switching to a linear technique when generating and
applying the power to the pedals, everything changes and what was
impossible becomes possible.
I don't know what your "linear technique" is but I am sure it makes no
difference to the subject at hand, which is that bicyclists do not
introduce power to bicycle propulsion with their arms. Work is done by
moving a force through a distance. The arms supply a static counter
force to pedaling but the muscles do not extend or contract in that
effort. The bicycle is leaned to the left or the right in the neutral
phase are the top of the pedal stroke and therefore does not constitute
muscular work although it requires strength.
The upper body arm power that you would use to power hand cranks can
be biomechanically combined with the leg power to not only increase
the overall pedal power but also eliminate the 11 to 1 o'clock dead
spot area, giving continuous power application to the pedals.
Can you explain how static arm force propels the bicycle.
But first you need to be a good round pedaler because the most
beneficial pedaling is as much mental as physical and to get that
message across to you PowerCranks would be needed for a year or two.
The case for "round pedaling" is a tenuous as that of ankling. If you
observe proficient riders in a TT, you'll notice that they don't "round
pedal" something that is evident from upper body motion as they throw
their weight on the downward pedal.
Jobst Brandt







Concentrate on the wheels, forget about the pedaling. Round pedaling
helps relax the muscles and leads to smooth pedaling but for
competitive purposes it is useless. But you need to have that smooth
style before moving on to the far more powerful linear technique. The
upper and lower body act as a unit, the very discreet pulling and
pushing on the bars have two main advantages, the pulling supplies the
resistance necessary for the linear power generation technique while
the pushing supports all of the upper body weight. With all upper body
weight suppported by the arm and all pedal power generating strain
absorbed by the hips, the lower back is left free of all strain and the
root cause of all cycling related lower back pain is removed. If you
want to see how linear pedaling is done, take a look at the video of J
Anquetil's racing years. There are some perfect examples there and you
will see how he starts his main power stroke at 11 o'clock, eliminating
the dead spot area in the process.



--
--------------------------
Posted via cyclingforums.com
http://www.cyclingforums.com

Jan Lindström wrote in message ...
[snip]
. . . Finnish x-country skiers believed a
special cow milk did all kinds of wonders. (Please, no debates on that!)
[snip]

Dear Jan,

Rec.bicycles.tech is no place to beg for mercy!

I demand to know what secret cow milk fuelled the Finnish
cross-country ski team, what advantages they obtained, and
whether you're using it yourself to cross the finnish line
first!

Full disclowsure!

Mooo!

Carl Fogel